Boycott iLok and PACE?


    Dec 04 2007 | 1:34 pm
    Adam Schabtach of Audio Damage is calling for a boycott of iLok/PACE products.
    I personally hate software that uses Challenge/Response systems, and generally avoid them, with max being the only software I own that uses it.
    Logic recently dropped its dongle protection, making it a much more attractive 'pro' level DAW.
    I haven't seen any discussion on this on the list at all, so I figured it might be worth bringing up, with a new max coming out.
    I'd love to see the new max using a not so invasive CP scheme, but I know it will likely be the same.
    I'm curious what other max users think of the whole thing.

    • Dec 04 2007 | 1:39 pm
      Sorry, here is the full version of the article (not just a blurb from it):
    • Dec 04 2007 | 7:07 pm
      I don't like dongles. I used to have a string of 4 on my old 8100/100 mac. But I like not having a license locked down to one machine. I could see larger studios with many employees wanting a license server with floating licenses (flexLM), but for a one man setup, I like my pace.
      No pace/max locked into one machine vs. Pace w/ Max wherever I install Max
      I choose the latter.
    • Dec 04 2007 | 8:11 pm
      I honestly don't see the benefit of the iLok system, unless they workout the software itself being installed on the ilok (like those new fangled USB drives that take programs/settings with you). Now that would be cool, and a worthwhile investment, if you could literally take the program/license/settings with you onto any machine you use.
      Where are these fully installed, license free computers that everyone moves their iloks back and forth from?
      You can have it installed on 2 computers via C/R. Schools/studios would, hopefully, have fully licensed versions. So where else would you need to use it, that you couldn't legitimately have it installed (without needing an ilok).
      This isn't a flame, I'm just curious as to the practical benefit of the ilok.
      Also, theres the much easier choice of having a regular old serial # authorization system. Everyone's a winner there, since theres no overhead for the outsourced copy protection, its easy/painless to install/reinstall, and those who wouldn't buy it aren't affected since they used the cracked version already anyways.
      On Dec 4, 2007 7:07 PM, Don K wrote:
      > > I don't like dongles. I used to have a string of 4 on my old 8100/100 > mac. > But I like not having a license locked down to one machine. > I could see larger studios with many employees wanting a license server > with floating licenses (flexLM), but for a one man setup, I like my pace. > > No pace/max locked into one machine vs. Pace w/ Max wherever I install Max > > I choose the latter. > -- > -DonK >
    • Dec 04 2007 | 8:58 pm
      I've found the iLok to be handy on a number of occasions where I might be doing a visiting artist residency or guest lecture. I don't need to bring my computer, just my patches & related files on a flashdrive and my iLok. When I get there, I download and install MaxMSP on whatever computer they have for me to use, and I'm in business.
      Home SFIFEM Atrium Sound Space OVOS CMP
    • Dec 04 2007 | 9:05 pm
      I have an iLok. Its a love hate relationship, but its handy - if you do work with multiple machines, you can download max, and its just licensed. I can work anywhere, on any computer, say for performance works, or at home I have multiple machines, and i can move my dongle around.
      Also, you don't have to keep the dongle plugged in, launch Max with dongle, removed, keep working, or plug dongle in to second machine and launch max there, and you have 2 licensed systems.
      I predominantly use it to make last minute changes on systems where I expect to use the run time, but may need to revise something I had over looked last minute.
      *shrug*
      Besides occasionally forgetting it (which is a ROYAL FUCKING PAIN IN THE ASS when it happens), its ben more of a benefit that I had expected.
    • Dec 05 2007 | 1:42 am
      I hope posts like those maybe help the cycling74 when choosing copy protection for future version?
      I have had bad experiences with Pace in the past. Having it forget my authorizations especially if you install multiple products that utilize it.
    • Dec 05 2007 | 8:04 am
      Quote: rodrigo.constanzo wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 05:34 ---------------------------------------------------- > > I'm curious what other max users think of the whole thing. >
      I absolutely despise anti-piracy. And I refuse to use dongles. If Max didn't have PACE I would not be using it.
      I'm a software developer, and I've been forced to drop cool features many times because higher ups demanded we improve anti-piracy measures over perceived loss of revenue due to theft of our software. And you know what? People are still stealing our software. It's just like the arms race with DRM and DVD encryption. Really smart people spend YEARS designing the next "uncrackable" system, and it just gets cracked in a few days. Every time! What a horrible waste of money and effort.
      I might have enough know-how to crack Max if I wanted to. But you know what? I really like the software and I want to pay money to Cycling '74 to support the continued development of Max/MSP. The world will always be filled with people like me who get value out of digital goods and pay money for them, and the world will always be filled with people who steal digital goods no matter how many protective measures are put in place. Ultimately, anti-piracy measures end up getting in the way of the people who are paying for the software and making their life more of a hassle, which is truly a shame.
      Plus there's the fact that there were problems with PACE after one of the OS X upgrades, and Cycling engineers had to take time away from working on cool features to fix that. Again, I think this is a waste.
      So I would like Max better if they dropped iLok/PACE in favor of a simpler anti-piracy measure ("keep the honest people honest"), and spent the saved resources on feature development. Just my two cents, having been on both sides of this fight.
      -Adam
    • Dec 05 2007 | 10:41 am
      In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed, it says: https://cycling74.com/story/2007/9/28/105551/882
      5. The installation and authorization experience is vastly improved.
      Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton.
    • Dec 05 2007 | 10:48 am
      Hi,
      I see lot of people who don't like iLok - I understund yours positions, but I would like to tel you the other opinion about iLok
      For us the iLok is real the best solution for musical software and we would like to have all software we have with iLok!
      We have lot of computers mac and PC and we buy regulary a new computers. The iLok permit to have one software totaly independant from hardware and it's extremly important for us.
      When I develop the software Max/MSP - and i have test it - what other solution? Ok i can instal a demo version - but after 1 months it's finished.... when I return to test it after 2 month have I buy a new licence only for test?
      We buy a new computers - have we buy every time a new licence for software? there are 2 licence with C/R but what's after? Personaly I am using every year about 2 new ot differents computer for developing and testing - have we buy every year a new licence?
      When we buy a software we would like to put it where we need and change the place when we buy another computer. We have lot of software and change all for another computer with C/R is absolutly crazy and after two changes impossible!
      You can't immagine the number of problems we had before iLok with installation, we spent out time to explain that we have a new computer and the composers could not work during this time..... (I spent personaly a months with e-mail and phone!!!)
      new version of Logic has not a dongle..... for us is totaly crazy, why we have buy a Logic for 4 computers if we use onlu ONE software with one dongle and we dont's need to use it on 4 computers in same time?
      The iLock is real the best solution for us and i hope only that cycling will read this email in the same time like the others and to think about the problems for the studios with more than two computers..............
    • Dec 05 2007 | 11:31 am
      I remember reading that, but didn't consider it much, as it doesn't say who it's vastly improved for.
      Presumably the end user, but any challenge response system still a pita for the end user, with software/hardware changes needing reauthorization. And if some day in the future c74 goes under, who's going to issue the responses then? Sure there can be 'universal' responses given, but theres no guarantee of that. That, and C/R systems only make it harder for legit costumers to use the software.
      Hopefully it will be a simple serial authorization.
      My gripe with this is more a philosophical one than a practical one. I feel that we're on the cusp of a big change in the way technology and media rights are handled. I would like to see c74 (and my money) go with a more progressive approach. (As apposed to Waves, and the RIAA etc..)
      With the iLok thing. I know it's been mentioned that you can boot up with it, then remove it. Does this violate the EULA? Like, can you run a computer lab at a school but booting them all up with the same license in the morning and be done with it?
      It seems to me that if you have more than 2 computers your using max on, you should own more than one license?
      For testing patches/setups, theres the run-time version, and you can get issued new responses until you(and c74) are blue in the face, if you keep buying new computers, or format your disk, although it would come with a great deal of suspicion.
      On Dec 5, 2007 10:41 AM, mHatsys wrote:
      > > In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed, > it says: > https://cycling74.com/story/2007/9/28/105551/882 > > > 5. The installation and authorization experience is vastly improved. > > Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be > great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton. >
    • Dec 05 2007 | 11:53 am
      Hi everyone !
      I've almost finished a big patch completely based on joystick controlling, using the "hi" obj. Today I open the patch and max is not seeing hi as an object. The error i get is a classic:
      error: hi : No such object
      But the object is still there in its folder.... No idea. What can be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is still the same.. haven't touched anything about it..
      thanks in advance b.
    • Dec 05 2007 | 12:33 pm
      Thanks Adam. Your comments come very close to my feelings about this. Copy protection often punishes most the people who have paid for the software.
      When Max was with Opcode in the early 90's I was on tour. Suddenly Max reported that it was no longer authorized. I phoned the company and was told that they had detected third-party software on my computer that could be used to bypass copy protection. I don't recall what that software was but it was some kind of a utility. Fortunately, I had my key disk with me or I would not have been able to complete my tour with a potential loss of thousands of dollars. This after purchasing my personal copy and recommending the purchase of MANY copies to my department, students and colleagues.
    • Dec 05 2007 | 12:37 pm
      I'm also against anti-piracy/DRM, and find it completely pointless. As one developer in the thread mentioned already it is a complete waste of time, if the product you are developing is good enough someone will take the time to find a way around it.
      I'm so sick of these silly restrictions on what I can and can't do with items that I have purchased that I have begun moving over to just using open source apps as much as I can. I have no problem paying for decent software, but restricting what I can and can't do with regards personal use of it is bullshit.
      DRM is already as good as dead in music, software will probably (hopefully) follow suit soon enough.
    • Dec 05 2007 | 12:52 pm
      Quote: MikEyhaTsis wrote on Wed, 05 December 2007 03:41 ---------------------------------------------------- > In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed, it says: > https://cycling74.com/story/2007/9/28/105551/882 > > > 5. The installation and authorization experience is vastly improved. > > Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton. ----------------------------------------------------
      That doesn't specifically say that they have dropped PACE. But we can certainly hope so. :)
    • Dec 05 2007 | 2:12 pm
      Quote: rodrigo.constanzo wrote on Wed, 05 December 2007 06:31 ---------------------------------------------------- > And if some day in the future c74 goes under, who's going to issue the responses then?
      This happened with Opcode's StudioVision Pro after it was bought by Gibsuck. For a long time people were unable to get responses at all. Eventually (a very long eventually) they released a version with CP removed, but there was some real pain along the way. RIP StudioVision Pro.
    • Dec 05 2007 | 4:51 pm
    • Dec 08 2007 | 8:17 am
      bluermutt schrieb: > But the object is still there in its folder.... > No idea. What can be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is > still the same.. haven't touched anything about it..
      DO you have a hi.js, or something like that in your search path?
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
    • Dec 08 2007 | 12:43 pm
      Thanks !!!!! Yea I had, i modified the search path and now is working again!
      thanks a lot, you saved me. I had no idea...
      bests b.
      On Dec 8, 2007, at 9:17 AM, Stefan Tiedje wrote:
      > bluermutt schrieb: >> But the object is still there in its folder.... No idea. What can >> be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is still the >> same.. haven't touched anything about it.. > > DO you have a hi.js, or something like that in your search path? > > -- > Stefan Tiedje------------x------- > --_____-----------|-------------- > --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- > -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- > ----------()--------www.ccmix.com > >
    • Feb 14 2011 | 5:16 am
      It's a hassle, doesn't prevent software piracy, just an annoyance for loyal paying customers, and most of all Pace's customer service is truly UN-friendly from what I have experienced myself and heard from others as well. Oh did I mention- $40 in addition to software purchase (even as a one time investment) is unfair especially when the software companies opt for this type of protection, why does the cost have to be picked up by the customer ? Just my opinion
    • Feb 14 2011 | 1:18 pm
      beeing with adam (m., not s.) mostly i feel one should not forget one thing.
      it is close to hilarious when developers who have chosen not to use pace cp (with or without dongle) are calling for customers not to buy products who use it.
      it sounds a bit like "buy our product instead, because we are smarter".
      nothing more but one of many different marketing blah blahs.
      green capitalism is is still capitalism, if you know what i mean.
      unfortunatley the group of users who are fighting for total legalisation of filesharing and cracking - but who also still pay for stuff they really use - is still too small for the required revolution.
      there are still too many people who simply refuse to pay for software only because they can. and there are still too many comcpanies who are fucking with their registered users, sell them shit and then dont offer any support or resell the 2.0.1 update under a new name for another 500 euros.
      so i tend to see it as a kind of unavoidable compromise that many people use bullshit "protection" systems while they (sometimes, not always) have a liberal idea about their users no matter if they can afford to buy or not.
      a compromise is better than no solution at all.
      -110
    • Feb 18 2011 | 2:47 pm
      Dear all, I totally agree in the fact not to use license and iLok dongle, I'm not a hacker and I buy my license renewed, the first time I bought Max, and use the key directly on my machine, some time near my computer was off (my motherboard died) I was using just short after a computer loaned to max so I again asked permission, I had again problems with this machine, in short all that to say this is really compelling and it would be much better to use a license number. The system of licensing and authorization for me is the only point that I never recommand use Cycling74's products only for this reason. But I like to work with it. I bought max 5 with vizzie my computer burned I am currently on a new computer, and I confess I do not intend to use iLok authorization system and is quite annoying in practice I would rather glance would reformat my computer every month until cycling through a license number like Photoshop and other.
    • Dec 14 2013 | 3:40 am
      after wasting a whole day trying to install max5 (at least 4 different versions) on my new win7 64bit machine and after i found out that pace copy protection dosent work with my installed comodo firewall even if the firewall is disabled and the only solution seems to uninstall the firewall and leave my computer unprotected i am pretty shure i wont buy any iLok/PACE protected products in future again !!!