help to fatten up my kick drum sound?


    Jul 21 2008 | 3:35 pm
    Hi,
    I'm looking to fatten up my kick drum sound a bit, but not knowing exactly how to proceed. I've posted my usual way of synthesizing kick drums, which sounds fine on little speakers but on larger speakers sorta lacks that fat oomph that is so essential. What should I do?
    Thanks for any suggestions,
    Jay

    • Jul 21 2008 | 3:46 pm
      Cant seem to open your patch,
      Generally I find eq'ing so it peaks between 100 and 140 comes through on bigger speakers. And use a limiter maybe, think there's a limiter/compressor patch in the max documentation that might help.
    • Jul 21 2008 | 4:52 pm
      Jay Bodley skrev:
      > Hi,
      >
      > I'm looking to fatten up my kick drum sound a bit, but not knowing exactly how to proceed. I've posted my usual way of synthesizing kick drums, which sounds fine on little speakers but on larger speakers sorta lacks that fat oomph that is so essential. What should I do?
      Jay,
      There's plenty of low end in the kick you posted - try lowering to midi
      note 40, or working more on the pitch envelope.
      But first of all I'd like to know what you mean by "fat oomph"? A lot of
      times what people hear as "phatness" is the noise and higher
      frequencies", not the other way around. Have you tried layering with a
      crackly old vinyl breakbeat sample?
      Andreas.
    • Jul 21 2008 | 4:58 pm
      I'm basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~...).
    • Jul 22 2008 | 9:30 am
      i find a bit of saturation / distortion (overdrive~) acts as a sorta limiter, and gives the kick more punch. i would also second the EQ
      j
    • Jul 22 2008 | 1:05 pm
      Are there any Max patches or externals out there that do
      saturation/distortion/compression?
    • Jul 22 2008 | 1:13 pm
      Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
      ----------------------------------------------------
      > I'm basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~...).
      ----------------------------------------------------
      Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects page just sends me to cycling74 and when i run a search all i get is forum posts that mention omx.
    • Jul 22 2008 | 1:14 pm
      Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
      ----------------------------------------------------
      > I'm basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~...).
      ----------------------------------------------------
      Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects site just sends me to cycling74 and when I run a search all i get is forum posts mentioning omx.
    • Jul 22 2008 | 1:23 pm
      Hi,
      they are included with Max/Msp.
      All the best
      --
      Alessandro Fogar
      2008/7/22 Jay Bodley :
      >
      > Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
      > ----------------------------------------------------
      >> I'm basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~...).
      > ----------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects page just sends me to cycling74 and when i run a search all i get is forum posts that mention omx.
      >
    • Jul 22 2008 | 1:24 pm
      On 22 juil. 08, at 15:14, Jay Bodley wrote:
      > Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects site just sends me to
      > cycling74 and when I run a search all i get is forum posts
      > mentioning omx.
      They're part of the distribution since Max 4.5. So if you type
      omx.peaklim~ for instance, it should appear.
      ej
    • Jul 22 2008 | 1:24 pm
    • Jul 22 2008 | 1:25 pm
      Quote: sfogar wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 07:23
      ----------------------------------------------------
      > Hi,
      >
      > they are included with Max/Msp.
      >
      > All the best
      >
      > --
      > Alessandro Fogar
      >
      > http://www.fogar.it
      >
      > 2008/7/22 Jay Bodley :
      > >
      > > Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
      > > ----------------------------------------------------
      > >> I'm basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~...).
      > > ----------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects page just sends me to cycling74 and when i run a search all i get is forum posts that mention omx.
      > >
      >
      ----------------------------------------------------
      Haha, I guess the obvious place is the last one to check sometimes. Thanks.
    • Jul 22 2008 | 3:30 pm
      Wow I had no idea the octimax externals were included. Nice!
      Lets put together a list of useful externals/abstractions that
      one could use to enhance audio signals. So far we have...
      eq - biquad~, filtergraph~
      compressor - octimax.comp~
      distortion - overdrive~
      saturation - ?
      exciter - ?
      Any ideas for saturation and exciter? Are there additional
      signal modifiers that should be on this list?
    • Jul 22 2008 | 4:38 pm
      Quote: Anthony Palomba wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 09:30
      ----------------------------------------------------
      > saturation - ?
      >
      > Any ideas for saturation and exciter?
      >
      ----------------------------------------------------
      jcom.saturation~ in jamoma is nice!
    • Jul 23 2008 | 2:43 am
      just figured I'd add: for EQ there's also svf~ which is a nice filter for many uses as well(has the added benefit of giving you the use of using different settings in parallel(i.e. lowpass, highpass, bandpass, and notch, can all be used together). I still prefer biquad~ and, on that note, there's also cascade~ to achieve a series of biquad~s.
      I also should've noted that omx objects are actually MSP objects. But it was already explained. Maybe, though, I should add, the very powerful omx.4band~ and omx.5band~ are great to achieve compression and EQing at the same time(you'd still want to eq before them but they can help fatten up the sound in different frequency ranges).
      For saturation and exciter, you might need to create this on your own or use the 4band/5band omx objects to estimate these effects(i.e. push them hard in a certain range). To create your own, either by FFT or otherwise, you would need to single out certain frequency bands, somehow add harmonic distortion to them, perhaps even phase-reverse this distortion to null the distortion's effect on the human-ear(so the sound is clearer)... actually, I'll just cease my amateur speculation and simply point you to this old Mailing-List archive:
    • Jul 23 2008 | 7:41 am
      Quote: Anthony Palomba wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 14:05
      ----------------------------------------------------
      > Are there any Max patches or externals out there that do
      > saturation/distortion/compression?
      ----------------------------------------------------
      you'll find a few bits of code and ideas that will come in handy...
      j
    • Jul 23 2008 | 8:28 am
      little bit of FM ;)
    • Jul 23 2008 | 11:48 am
      tanh~ is pretty cool for clipping/distortion
      You could try to use non linear envelope too.
      The quartic envelope usually sound great. It's smoother.
      Linear f(x) = x
      Quartic f(x) = x * x * x * x
    • Jul 23 2008 | 5:24 pm
      Quote: Bertrand Fraysse wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 05:48
      ----------------------------------------------------
      > tanh~ is pretty cool for clipping/distortion
      > You could try to use non linear envelope too.
      > The quartic envelope usually sound great. It's smoother.
      >
      > Linear f(x) = x
      > Quartic f(x) = x * x * x * x
      >
      ----------------------------------------------------
      Sounds nice! Thanks.
    • Jul 23 2008 | 11:41 pm
      your patch doesn't go low enough. and then distort it a bit. the click at the beginning is pretty important too. you might have do everything with signals to control the click sound properly.
    • Jul 23 2008 | 11:43 pm
      and the envelopes are too short
    • Jul 24 2008 | 1:33 am
      The click at the beginning of the kick is a matter of taste.
      To remove the click you can make a 10 millisecond envelope.
      In the patch, I use just a 1 millisecond envelope to remove the big click.
      I you want to remove the click completely, you can use a 10 milliseconds envelope, but I think it removes some punch.