till now the only possible way to open a collective invisible i know, is to set it offscreen to either negative or positive space like -10000 -10000 -9900 -9900...
this works fine on osx until max5. it was possible to do this invisible collectives on windows (max4.6) to make the collective-window floating and set it to negative coordinates (unattach them from the main application window, which would not be necessary with max5).
since max5 this does not work anymore, offscreen position of "fixed initial window location" are ignored and the patcher/collective opens onscreen.
is there any other way to load collecitves invisible? (why is it not possible to shroud them?)