More like System 5 for the core look-and-feel, with a few of objects (panel, lcd, ...) that are System 7-ish.
Don't get me wrong, there have been lots of serious programming updates over the years, but the basic look is pretty monochrome/line-segment. My main consolation is that compared to Pd, Max is sexy. Sort of like comparing Peter Sagal to Carl Kasell.
i been playign with plogue a bit (don't tell maxine, she gets jealous). But for my money max will always be the best modular virtual system, Reaktors sound quality sounds like a dead cyborg (don't know why, the synthesis is excellent but the filters and granular sound so dull like dry bread) and PD is kinda wimpy and ugly by todays standards. Plogue is coming out pretty cool (and very pretty with its besier curve chords) but still not nearly the capabilities of the years of user base that have made max externals.
As for the look, I would imagine it with a kslider that looks semi dimensional, very clean and pretty, anti aliased patch cables, maybe even new preset sliders that look more shiny and osxlike. I know we have full controll over the look but it woudl be nice to be able to have pretty patches right out the box for once. Most people I see end up using the preset objects anyway because they are way more convinient unless they are releasing their creation to the public.
As far as functionality I hope they swallow up some of the externals or abstractions that are out there, for example I would have loved to have the Jimmies back when I started maxing, but it took 4 years before I knew about them and was willing to throw down 200 dollars to get an IRCAM membership just so I could obtain them. It woudl be wonderful to have simple limiter, flanger, and different filter abstractions so that we can learn by looking at them and have easy to use functions that everyone needs. Maybe even the max toolbox so you coudl do really convinient things like plug multiple outlets to multiple inlets automatically, or distribute objects on x or y axis.
Im just curious to see if others have the same values or if any C74 employees will spill a few proverbial beans.
> More like System 5 for the core look-and-feel, with a few of objects (panel, lcd, ...) that are System 7-ish.
> Don't get me wrong, there have been lots of serious programming updates over the years, but the basic look is pretty monochrome/line-segment. My main consolation is that compared to Pd, Max is sexy. Sort of like comparing Peter Sagal to Carl Kasell.
well i agree that it doesn't look nice, seems like a not so well done hybrid of max and the ugly jmax, but there are some features, that seem to be quite promising like the multiple undo and the firefox style find.
I think it's a bit misleading to assume that a nicer GUI would necessarily cause "bloat" - *any* GUI causes bloat. But maybe an idea would be to make it support "skins", so people could make pretty GUIs, themes, etc., for the existing objects. Then we could make our own Darth Vader "theme", or our "Neo" theme, or, or... oh, wouldn't that be sad. But, on the serious side, it would probably lighten the burden of c74 having to please everybody.
The point is that in the "form vs function" debate, anything we patch with is "form". If it were all text-based, and ran from the Terminal, that would be a different story. Of course, some objects take more juice to draw than others, with anti-aliasing, drop shadows, and all that, but it's not as though there's no GUI on Max as it is now. My basic philosophy is that the GUI should be consistent with the OS it's running on, which the current GUI is not.
i like the look of max.I has a professinal programming feel to it. But the UI objects etc i suppose could look more Reaktoresque. but their not essential. Some of the jaza UI's look great so it could just have lots more of them in and keep the classic look still for everything else. it looks alot better PD. Though PD has its own charm. i hope that the Windows version doesn't look like OS-X. I hope it has the Vista Aero Glass look. whats wrong with the way vista looks. it looks better than OS-X (personal but controversial opinion). max looks wicked under anything when you style is skinned anyway. Can you skin/change OS-X easily like you can with Windows. Max 4 looks funny under linux its got the classic windows 2000 and before look. its great. bless WINE's cotton socks. Is there any date for max 5. I'm assuming will be on both platforms not just os-x too.
I like the look of vista, the fact that it blurs things behind transparent layers. I still like the look of OSX more though, but not by much. At the core though I love the stability of OSX and so far its been really compatible and dependable since I started using it. I actually switched to mac so I could use max/msp right when jitter came out. then a couple years later they made it cross platform. Im not saying they should completely change the look of max, it has a classic charm and programming language look that it needs for me to take it as seriously as I do. I just think it should be cleaner and more up to date looking.
I don't really mind the way it looks now. There are a couple things that could be moved around though, for quicker and easier use.
- Move the objects bar to the top of the screen, don't have one for every patcher. This gets rid of the 20pixel empty space at the top of all my patches since i hate scrollbars. Allow dragging of objects between patchers.
- Make the choices from the view menu (show connections etc) accessible in one click or shortcut. Same with Paste Replace.
- Move the status of a max window somewhere else, it's always falling off the monitor now.
- Some align/grid option would be nice for building guis.
- This is OS-related: make me able to select objects within patches without having to select the patch first.
- Doubleclick on a send, receive or value should also work on a grab or forward.
Im not saying you shoudl change the look without options, I know lots of people love the current look, Im saying in the get info if there was an option for anti aliasing, that sure woudl be great, or maybe little curved corners or subtle shading, that looks good to me (OPTIONS are good to have). funny how people who are so progressive about sound are so conservative about their interface.
> Well, regarding Max and its GUI, i think the lack of good will is
> obvious. And reading the /"don't touch my old greyish max !"/ seems like
> the old : austere software = serious software for no joke people. Great.
> But, anyhow / nevertheless, we deserve an entirely customisable
> software. This is how the vast majority of softwares would have to
> evolve to be kept as reference in the future.
Thanks for saying this, f.e. For my part, I would love a new GUI, and particularly a new look applied to the GUI objects... (and getting ubumenu to stay open on a single-click!) But a themed approach would work too - so people could select a "classic" max look, or a newer, updated look. Finale has this, and it works pretty well (though that software seems to be coming apart at the seams, IMO).
I think you're right on the money with the "austere software = serious software" point. But serious software, to me, is software that increases productivity and workflow, both of which are intimately tied-up with GUI design. It's not that it has to look "pretty", with glassy blobs and shadows all over the place, but it should be comfortable to look at for long periods of time, should help guide the user's eye to the significant functions of the program and, in the case of Max, assist in understanding patcher design. As an example, drop shadows and/or transparency could be used to make the use of foreground/background layers visually apparent (and it could be toggled on/off, if performance became an issue). Anyway, I'm sure c74 has already thought of everything we can imagine, and more. It's mostly a matter of how much they can do *without* sacrificing runtime performance, which is everybody's biggest concern, I'm sure.
But this business about a retro GUI being a "serious" GUI is just sentimentality, IMO. After all, even Max's GUI was bleeding-edge, once upon a time. And poor OS X pretty much craps its little binary pants every time it needs to draw a window anyway, regardless of what's in it (well, not quite, but you get the idea). So why not benefit from the past 10 years of advances in GUI design? It's not like we need 3d animated cyber-dragons moving our patcher boxes around, or even a little animated dog to help us find the numbox ;-), but there are certainly things that could be improved with a new look.
Mind you, if I had to choose between a snazzy GUI and more advanced debugging tools, I'd take the latter in a heartbeat.
regulars(vade1) know I spend WAY TO MUCH TIME thinking about GUI stuff. sometimes I lean towards the opinion that we're assistants and the developers are the artists.
The normal way to do all this would be to include all this in the (currently unused) getInfo pallette not a window shade with all the attributes, show/hide options, object color. things still need to stay the same size/position in your patch.
Yes, a rollover thingy (like a hint)
Something tells me that max five is past the brain storming stage though. As usual, Max Folk, its just excersizing some deamons. not demands.
I like that mockup, thats what Im talking about! subtle shading and antialiasing go a LONG way! Im not entirely sure about the pic of the torus in the little object box but the readability of the top down works great!
Im sure max is well on its way, but I know if I was makign a software with a large userbase Id love to read what people find important.
Besides, I started this thread as a fantasy anyways, just to visualize it in my head and get excited about the next level.
Oh and the zoom idea is great!! they have that in plogue and I love it, really helps when you want to make more complex patches, you can zoom around and keep lots on one page, I only have an Ibook for a laptop and I do alot of coding on there, and it only has a 1024 view resolution, which is tough to keep complex patches in that area, it does force sub patching in a good way but theres some days where I wish I could just zoom out a bit. Though its not my biggest concern of all (coughcough *acurate-metro-that-doesn't-turn-off-randomly* coughcough)
I remember one day that my friend and I did an entire session in inverted screen black and white mode, we were working with accelerometers and mapping them to abysnth and max/msp and it was really tripped out.
> regulars(vade1) know I spend WAY TO MUCH TIME thinking about GUI stuff. sometimes I lean towards the opinion that we're assistants and the developers are the artists.
> Window shades.
> The normal way to do all this would be to include all this in the getInfo pallette not a window shade with all the attributes, show/hide options, object color. things still need to stay the same size/position in your patch.
"Windowshade" may be the wrong term. I'm referring to current values
(maybe only for single-value objects) and attributes (perhaps select
which ones in the Inspector). Essentially the same as your mock-up when
expanded. When collapsed, essentially the same as the current object
box. And a key feature is that this open/closed state is bound to each
instantiation and saved with the patch; as you say, everything needs to
stay the same size and keep the same position.
I'd love to see this option and use it on the few (varying) objects I
always find myself needing to monitor. I wouldn't want to be stuck with
it for every object, because even on my 1600x1050 display the real
estate would disappear way too fast and patches would become difficult
to read (less overview). It would be really nice for development and,
with selectable displayed info, possibly convenient even for finished
This could be possible in Max right now but scripting bpatchers would be
required. The overhead patchmess would make it less than worthwhile.
> Something tells me that max five is past the brain storming stage though. As usual, Max Folk, its just excersizing some deamons. not demands.
I assume so. My hope is that for anything unforeseen, hooks can be
added that will make life easier later on. For anything foreseen, this
thread may be some kind of personal exercise in frustration management
for the developers. I comfort myself with the knowledge that they are
all competent to ignore the whole thread if they want to.
First of all, I really hate myself for doing this at all since my pet peeve for the past 2 years was iPhone mockups. (who spends that kind of time on that junk?)
But I will say this. It was written from a conservative programmers point of view. There is no antialiasing in the mockup. max already provides antialiasing for fonts 12pt and up. geneva 9pt antialiased is about as legible as braille. I felt the shading could be computed once and stored in RAM as a 10 pixel image.
If you read any of my previous points, I was talking about patch cables, GUI objects and other things, not your pic, sorry if I made it seem that way. I was just saying I thought your idea was good. You really shouldn't flip into pissed mode... and I don't think this was anything akin to iphone mockups, this is a functional idea perspective, and a way to show others your idea, not a total fantasy for a hip little convenience/toy (Wii mockups ugh)
At any rate, this thread is so bi-polar its kindof screwed up.
hehehe did you think I meant that once you zoom in your fucked and have to buy a new computer?? hahahaha
Im sure you could zoom out, sure would be pimp to have the ability to have more screen then you have space.. dont they have multidesktops in the new OS10.5? I swear I saw that somewhere... or smackbook.. where you can tap the side of the monitor and it will flip to another screen... that would be nice too. I wonder if the modbooks have the motion sensors.. I want to get one of those so bad.. OOH I WONDER IF YOU CAN USE THE GPS IN MAX!!!! how sick would that be to draw abstracts of your path throughout the day with jitter.. , how sick would it be just to use the tablet screen to draw jitter objects... ooh geek giddyness!