When I saw the price for the low-end model is only $499 I immediately thought "someone needs to update TouchOSC asap." I could sell off all my midi controllers and finally have all the controls I need in one device.
A Lemur and monome do not do anything "powerful", that is to say, there is nothing computationally intensive about what they are doing. They just provide interesting interface alternatives. Could you emulate that and more with the iPad? Most assuredly.
Another thing to think about... While the iPad may be cool and all, what
I really want to use it for is as a music controller. Ideally I would
like to run Max on it. Perhaps a better idea would be to wait for one
of the many Win7 intel multitouch tablets that are on the way. That would
give me much more freedom in making the tablet a composition and
you can run iphone apps on the ipad and stretch the resolution to fullscreen. so, touchOSC will be usable when iPad ships. it would be nice to see an ipad-specific version that takes advantage of the extra processing power. maybe we'll see some of those neat-o controller physics that the lemur has. i'm still not gonna waste $500 on a big-boy size iphone though ^_^
"...it does depend on how "multi" the multi-touch screen in the iPad is. Like the stantum, the Lemur supports 10+ simulaneous touches (so you can use all fingers on different sliders simultaneously). Most Windows multi-touch LCD or tablets support only 2-3 simulataneous touches (i.e. are devised for two finger operation)."
How many people using a Lemur really move 10 points simultaneously? Even 5? I personnaly didn't use it a lot, but never used more than 4 fingers (but I guess i need to rehearse).
I think the interesting things with the Lemur is to propose new kind of controls (like multiballs, and the physical bahaviors) and to be able to create your own interfaces.
I agree, more than 4 touches is pretty much overkill, unless you're going for multi-user input. Cheaper and cheaper "Surfaces" like this will be all around us soon enough, so let's start patching... I think the most interesting stuff is in the interface and the physics possibilities as well, it's pretty much endless. Using Processing sketches on Android devices could help a lot in these areas too.
Combine FantaStick and the iPad, and with some really creative patching, this setup could definitely give the Lemur a run for the money... and it would be just one app on an otherwise totally functional computer, rather than a much more expensive stand-alone instrument. That said, the Lemur is incredibly cool and possibly the best all-around virtual instrument ever created...
okay, we need a roll-up multitouch screen like those roll-up keyboards, using the new flexible LCD and circuit-printing that's coming out. everything wireless and using a laptop battery, or you can USB/charge it with your computer. take it out of its circular tube casing, unroll, connect to computer, and start playing...
your interface could be made with FantaStick, so it could be a super-long Max patch with all the controls you'd ever want. or at least, all you'd want for a minute or two, when your jamming partners come along and want to use their roll-ups too...plug in and go!
"anyone know the weight and thickness of the Lemur offhand? "
Well, looking at mine now, I'd say it's about 1.5 inches thick and it's pretty weighty as well (estimate about 3lb).
I've worked with the iPhone and the Lemur extensively and a couple of things spring to mind:
1) The Lemur is rugged. In fact it's all but armoured. It's built solid, and to last. I'd bet you could stand on it without ill effects.
2) Wired ethernet, when used to transmit and receive OSC, is much better than wi-fi. Wi-fi tends to 'burst' the packets so you get jerky movements.
The multi-touch thing... well, I agree that 10 points of touch is probably more than many require but if you have, for example, a multislider on screen and are doing a performance of some kind it's great to be able to put both hands down and "manipulate the sliders on average" using both hands. Less than 5 points of touch is a serious limitation in my experience.
The iPad looks to be a very promising step in the right direction, but it'll take a lot more to seriously contend with the Lemur. The JazzEditor software, while annoying and buggy in places, is still pretty powerful and far better than using any native iPad app to build interfaces.
The iPad does have two advantages as I see it though.
1) It's cheaper
2) It's got a LOT more memory. The Lemur only has 4mb of working RAM within which your GUI and scripting must live. Many Lemur users, myself included, have hit this limitation more than once.
In short, if someone was to build a killer PC/Mac app for designing interfaces that could be then uploaded to the iPad, and if the nature of the app was such that some jittery wi-fi packets don't affect it, then it'll make an interesting alternative.
Personally, I'm happy to wait and see how the technology goes, but the iPad, although (As I said) a step in the right direction, is somewhat short of the mark to date.
There is an old video I put up as a proof of concept some months ago which shows the iPod Touch and the Lemur working together as dual controllers on the same demo (Max in the middle of course). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQCm4W1otR8 - you can see the jerkiness of the iPod Touch controls if you look closely.
>> Eddy : "2) Wired ethernet, when used to transmit and receive OSC,"
>> "is much better than wi-fi. Wi-fi tends to 'burst' the packets"
>> "so you get jerky movements."
Not true, as long as you create "a computer to computer network". (you get lags because you use wi-fi thru a router)
...crossing fingers hoping that the TouchOSC and Fantastick - a kind of augmented max [lcd] for iphone with 5-fingers-positions-input, really cool, even if a bit slow drawing on an ipod touch - developers will bring us real ipad versions (with ipad resolution). There are the best apps on iphone for using with max. This will be a reason for me to invest in an ipad.
So, five months on, where are we? Is it worth getting an iPad to use as a controller for Max patches? Should I wait for the price to drop or for the arrival of iPad native versions of iPhone OSC apps? When are we expecting native versions of TouchOSC and C74?
Hmmm... Surprised nobody has anything to say on this. Maybe it's covered in another thread that I haven't unearthed yet?
Or maybe I should be more specific... Okay, how about this:
I have a question about the way TouchOSC sends messages between mobile devices and computers. Do the messages have to go via a wireless router or can they really go via a "computer-to-computer" network (as suggested earlier in this thread) or even via a "hard" USB connection? For example, if I was playing a live show, using an iPad/TouchOSC as my controller, would I have to send the signal via the venue's wireless network or could I go directly to Max/MSP on my computer?
There will probably never be an iPad version of Max. Which is sad, because
the iPad is a great hardware platform. Too bad Apple has such a
restrictive software environment.
But that does not mean you should not get it. TouchOSC works
great on the iPad with Max. If you used TouchOSC in a live performance,
you would need to have your own wireless router that your
laptop and ipad would connect to. TouchOsc would then send messages
to the IP address of your laptop on the network.
Is it relatively simple to route the iPad signal through a wireless router, even if, say, the router isn't connected to the Internet? In my experience, anything involving wireless networking is a complete nightmare. Is there really no way to go directly to the computer from the iPad?
Edit: Maybe through Bluetooth? Or something? I have to say, this sounds like a deal-breaker to me.
"Is it relatively simple to route the iPad signal through a wireless router, even if, say, the router isn't connected to the Internet?"
It's the same, I've gotten TouchOSC working with my iPhone via a wireless network using just my laptop, no Internet connection (just set it up as a single computer "network"). Am assuming the iPad is the same.
Would be great to have a "hard-connected" version too, but not sure how that would work. Certainly possible, but would depend on Apple's restrictions perhaps...
"It's the same, I've gotten TouchOSC working with my iPhone via a wireless network using just my laptop, no Internet connection (just set it up as a single computer "network"). Am assuming the iPad is the same."
Can I trouble you for a little more information on this, please? When you say "no Internet connection" do you mean "with no wireless router" or just "with the wireless router not connected to the Internet?" When you say "just set it up as a single computer network", is this something you do via "Create Network..." on the computer's Airport menu or is it something you do on the iPad/iPhone?
Sorry to be picky, I just want to be 100% sure about what I'm getting myself into before I shell out for one of these things.
Ah, yes. Good questions. I have a wireless router which I generally use for internet at home. For a class presentation where I wanted to show the iPhone/TouchOSC capabilities, I re-configured that same router to just be for my laptop. So you do need the router, regardless. No internet (even though it was in the classroom, I configured it at home). So it's still just like an Internet wireless, but in the router config it let me set it up as just one computer. Nothing needed to be changed on the iPhone, it's just an IP on that end.
(BTW I'm on XP so I'm not sure about Airport, but I'm sure it can be done similarly.)
Really, it seems that the wireless is just for the communications, it's just that generally we use that for internet, but it doesn't have to be. In this case, it's just to get communication from the iPad to the computer, without Bluetooth or a cable. And the range is really pretty great, you could easily control several installations in a gallery around walls etc. I ran this from outside a coffeehouse through their walls and windows to a good 100 feet away, no problems, and there wasn't much of the stuttering or dropouts, good refresh rate etc. The power of the iPad wireless transmitter and the router's capabilities are what matters, I guess.
So you had to configure your router specially? I couldn't just use my regular router that's set up in my office for our Internet connection, without reconfiguring it? Actually, this isn't so much of a problem for me as I do have a spare wireless router, so I could just set that up. But the thought of configuring anything related to wireless networking makes me shudder. Compared to that shit, programming granular synthesis instruments with Max/MSP is a walk in the park. ;]
"In this case, it's just to get communication from the iPad to the computer, without Bluetooth or a cable."
Might there be some potential for using Bluetooth to do this, without requiring the signal to go through a router? I don't know much about Bluetooth but I know that the Mac and the iPad both recognize Bluetooth devices, so couldn't they talk to each other via Bluetooth?
About the router, the only reason I had to reconfigure it was to take it to class, where the Internet wasn't available (at least not in the same way as home). I also wanted to see if it could be done without the Internet, worked just fine. If your router is already set up and running, you should be able to connect the iPad/iPhone to it wirelessly without any problem and without any reconfiguring. Just find the right IP address (System Preferences on Mac, "ipconfig" on Windows, from the command line), enter that into the phone/pad, and you should be good to go.
if you are on a mac you can skip the router (even though a router brings more stability), just press create network and connect touchOSC or any other app working on ipad/iphone/ipod and set it to recognize the new ip.
I think lack of multi-platform support is a fundamental problem with Max/MSP and one that ****really saps enthusiasm for development****
Unity is really hot right now, check out the platforms they support: http://unity3d.com/unity/publishing/
Granted, it's not the same type of application development but I do think they have a great business model.
Why couldn't Max/MSP have a sales model similar to this https://store.unity3d.com/shop/
- A free version to get your feet wet
- The full priced version
- Add-ons for each platform
We've seen an explosion of new devices and people want to take their creations to these new platforms. I would easily drop another $500 on a Max/MSP iOS add-on.
Tantalising - and hilarious* - video. I'll admit that I wasn't that excited by the description of Mira alone, but seeing how it works has turned me around. Can't wait to see a list of supported objects.
*I get Mbryo's "tough crowd" comment. Not even a titter at the Poincaré "eyewear" gag.