Problem building Pluggos as per the tutorial


    Sep 28 2006 | 10:40 pm
    I'm having problems building Pluggos using the tutorials provided as part of the Pluggo Development kit.
    I've worked my way through the first tutorial and reached the point of file>build collective/application, i've selected pluggo (.dll) from the options and clicked build.
    The collective build window is there and there's a message which says: Starting Build for TutorialP1.pat-build
    It says the same in the Max Window, but it's been 30 minutes now and it's still not progressed and there's no pluggo in the place i've tried to save it.
    How long should it take? Presumably not that long!
    I'm running Max/MSP+Jitter 4.5.?, (I bought it a couple of months ago if that helps), on Windows XP.
    I'm assuming it's a simple thing i'm doing wrong but after scanning the Pluggo Development .PDF i still can't find the problem...so any help or advice would be massively appreciated.
    Thanks in advance, John

    • Sep 28 2006 | 10:59 pm
      it should take about 1 second.
      Something is jammed up on your system. Quit it and try again. If you are still having problems, let us know about it.
      Cheers
      Andrew
    • Sep 28 2006 | 11:52 pm
      Hi Andrew, thanks for replying so quickly!
      I've quit and retried it a few times, all with the same results unfortunately :(
      Can you suggest any settings i can try changing or things that might be causing the problem?
      Thanks again, John
    • Sep 29 2006 | 8:31 am
      Ok...So far i've tried rebooting Max and also rebooting my PC, all to no avail.
      Should i now try reinstalling Max and see whether that works or is there something i've over looked?
      Before i try that though, can someone tell me if the same Challenge/Response i used to authorise it last time will work again? It'll be on the same computer and the same version of Windows as it was loaded on to last time.
      If that doesn't work, should i try reinstalling Windows? I'd be using Norton Ghost to recreate a version of the disk image, although i'll have to use an image from prior to installing Max...so the same question applies as reinstalling Max, ie will my Challenge/Response still work? Again, it'd be installed onto the same computer although i'm not sure if the Windows would have the same installation codes and therefore whether the Challenge/Response would still work.
      Any advice appreciated, thanks in advance John
    • Sep 29 2006 | 5:28 pm
      Ok...so i've now uninstalled and re-installed Max, still no joy!
      I then formatted my C: drive, reinstalled Windows XP, Max/MSP+Jitter and everything else...still nothing! (although fortunately my old challenge response worked)
      For the record it's Max/MSP 4.5.7 & Jitter 1.5.2.
      I'm sure it's not me doing anything wrong now, i also can't get my copy to build either Collectives or Applications from any of my patches (including demo patches, tutorials etc etc).
      Same message in the Collective Window and the Max Window, but nothing else.
      Any help would be appreciated, thanks again John
    • Sep 29 2006 | 5:39 pm
      It certainly does sound like you have done everything right.
      We're gonna resolve this in support...
      -A
    • Sep 29 2006 | 5:45 pm
      Thanks Andrew,
      I was just emailing support as we speak but i'll hold off for a bit now...unless you think it's appropriate.
      Would a list of all the applications on my system, (and attached devices), help?
    • Sep 29 2006 | 9:47 pm
      Thankfully Andrew managed to solve the problem, so here's a follow up for the knowledge base.
      The problem was that for some unknown reason Max wasn't compiling Collectives (.mxf), Applications (.exe) or Plugins (.dll) from the "build" option in the File menu on my computer.
      Bizzarely this also occurred on a fresh install of Max/MSP 4.5.7, downloaded from the Cycling 74 site (not from my original CD), on a seperate computer also running XP home SP2!
      The solution, for anyone who has the same problem in the future, was as simple as adding the specific file extension when naming the file...for example: "myplugin.dll" (for a plugin), "mycollective.mxf" (for a collective) or "myapp.exe" (for an application).
      He also pointed out that when creating an application, (.exe), it is essential to only use one period (.) in the file name and that should be the one followed by exe!
      I hope this information goes some way to furthering the Max/MSP knowledge base and helps anyone who ever finds themselves with a similar problem in the future.
      Thanks so much Andrew, your help was invaluable :-)
    • Sep 29 2006 | 10:05 pm
      No worries mate.
      BTW, the "multiple periods in the standalone file name" bug is fixed in MaxMSP 4.6.2 for Windows.
      -A
    • Sep 29 2006 | 10:35 pm
      this is a problem for XP which I Haven't addressed.
      What you need to do is...
      Go to control panel, open folder options, then under the view tab, uncheck "hide extensions for known file types"
      now, when you build a collective as a pluggo plugin, you need to remove the ".pat-build" at the end and replace it with ".dll"......
      --=--=------=--=------=--=----
      So, the reason why it wasn't building was because the extension at the end was incorrect and windows wasn't displaying that information back to you.
      Took me weeks to figure out lol...
      James
    • Sep 30 2006 | 4:12 am
      Well, I hope I can piggy-back on this thread and get some help myself. I too have been working through the Pluggo tutorials, which I found this evening by searching the forum archives - http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ems/pdf/PluggoDevGuide.pdf - and I have been using the example to convert my delay patcher into a VST (.dll)....well, no problems building the .dll (thank something or someone for that!), but the issue for me is when I load the plug up on my MAX host. The plug loads fine, and even it's window looks fine, but as soon as I touch the damn thing in order to tweak a parameter, MAX crashes and shuts down instantly.
      I have copied my delay patch below. Any suggestions? One question I have is whether it is necessary to create that loop between the float number box and the pp object. Can I leave this out? I'm afraid that in reading the tutorial and trying to build my patch into a plug that I may have neglected to do something really important or critical.
      Kris
    • Sep 30 2006 | 4:21 am
      the loop is necessary. Without the loop the contents of plugconfig [which wasn't included] will not be updated. Each pp is like a CC. If the value doesn't go back into pp, then no preset can exist because nothing has been stored.
    • Sep 30 2006 | 4:30 am
      Quote: DrSbaitso wrote on Fri, 29 September 2006 22:21 ---------------------------------------------------- > the loop is necessary. Without the loop the contents of plugconfig [which wasn't included] will not be updated. Each pp is like a CC. If the value doesn't go back into pp, then no preset can exist because nothing has been stored. ----------------------------------------------------
      Okay, thanks. I guess I misinterpreted: "Now let’s look at how a pp object is connected to other objects. First, you’ll notice a curious circular connection between the float number box and the pp object. This is purely for the convenience of the plug-in developer for creating effect programs."
      I took the "purely for the convenience" clause to suggest it was not necessary, but I will make the connections now. So I need to add plugconfig too, then? Why does the tutorial before the one that introduces plugconfig go through the build process...doesn't this imply that the plug could be build without it? It falls under the Improving the User Experience section. This is confusing. I'm not even concerned about storing any presets at this point, just getting the plug to work in its barest sense. Excuse my lack of understanding...I'm just taking it one step at a time here.
      Kris
    • Sep 30 2006 | 4:33 am
      The float/numberbox is the conveinant part...
    • Sep 30 2006 | 9:12 am
      > So I need to add plugconfig too, then?
      > Why does the tutorial before the one that introduces > plugconfig go through the build process...doesn't this > imply that the plug could be build without it?
      > I'm not even concerned about storing any presets at > this point, just getting the plug to work in its barest sense.
      note that plugconfig also contains prefs for things like window size and such, which are required for any plug-in. yes i know, it does not even have a helpfile, but you?ll find almost anything about it in the MSP reference . yes, inMSP. :)
      and always take care that you do not have more than one plugconfig object in a plug-in, and also make sure thatyou use unique ID?s for differetn plug-ins. otherwise these two errors might also cause that your biuld doesnt show up in your host.
      -110
    • Sep 30 2006 | 4:55 pm
      The unique ideas that the .toast extension using Roman is refering to is in regards to messages and arguments which begin [as a symbol] with a string of 3 characters "---". When the plugin is loaded the --- will turn into a progressively linear number making sending to alternative instances impossible.
      So, if you have...
      send ---matrix_point
      when you load the plugin the object will become....
      send 001matrix_point
      for the life of the plugin, while the next time you load the plugin as another instance somewhere in your project, it'll take it's own number, 002 in this case, or higher if you have loaded other plugins.
      DS
    • Sep 30 2006 | 5:32 pm
      Okay, I rebuilt my entire stereo delay patch from scratch, following the tutorial example, adding the plugconfig, etc. Great. The plug loads up fine and it doesn't crash when I click on it. Perfect. But now all I see in the plug window is a bunch of wires and objects, just a peep hole into my larger patch screen. Now I guess I need to take a look at that plugconfig object and see what I need to change to fix this. I even tried to arrange my sliders in a similar position as the tutorial example, but no such luck in seeing them. I just saw the note from Dr. Sbaitso on on his hidden objects for sizing a plugin...I'll experiment with those I guess.
      Do I need to hide on lock everything but my faders?
      Kris
      Quote: Roman Thilenius wrote on Sat, 30 September 2006 03:12 ---------------------------------------------------- > note that plugconfig also contains prefs for things > like window size and such, which are required for any > plug-in. > yes i know, it does not even have a helpfile, but you?ll > find almost anything about it in the MSP reference . > yes, inMSP. :) > > and always take care that you do not have more than one > plugconfig object in a plug-in, and also make sure thatyou use unique ID?s for differetn plug-ins. > otherwise these two errors might also cause that your biuld > doesnt show up in your host. > > > -110 > ----------------------------------------------------
    • Sep 30 2006 | 5:36 pm
      You can do what you want in regards to hiding stuff. I mean, if the faders are the area that's going to be what the user sees, it'd probably be nicer. Check out my abstraction, but you'll need jasch and lobjects to make it work. It'll size it perfectly ;)
    • Sep 30 2006 | 5:42 pm
      Eeeek...more stuff to learn. Quick question. in useviews, does that first 0 need to be 1 to see my faders? I see now what defaultview and setsize are doing, I think, so I need to tweak those. I take it 550 220 0 means that I am setting the top edge of my plug's interface 550 pixels over from the top left of my patche's edit screen, 220 down, etc.
      Kris
      #C useviews 0 1 1 1; #C numprograms 8; #C preempt 1; #C sigvschange 1; #C sigvsdefault 32; #C setsize 220 130; #C defaultview Interface 550 220 0; #C dragscroll 1; #C noinfo; #C setprogram 1 ‘Program 1’ 0 0.232283 0.228346 0.103 0.1496 0.15 0.15; #C setprogram 2 ‘Program 2’ 0 0.232283 0. 0.292 0.677165 0.05 0.05; #C setprogram 3 ‘Program 3’ 0 0.232283 0.110236 0.143 0.07874 0.15 0.15; #C uniqueid 128 221 227; #C initialpgm 1;
      Quote: DrSbaitso wrote on Sat, 30 September 2006 11:36 ---------------------------------------------------- > You can do what you want in regards to hiding stuff. I mean, if the faders are the area that's going to be what the user sees, it'd probably be nicer. Check out my abstraction, but you'll need jasch and lobjects to make it work. It'll size it perfectly ;) ----------------------------------------------------
    • Sep 30 2006 | 10:57 pm
      Okay, I'm making tremendous progress here, relatively, and even if this plug is utterly basic. Thank everyone for the help! Once I get this nacked, I can generalize my learnings and build other plugins. I have the thing working now for the most part and all my faders shows nice and neat in the plug window. However...
      Can someone provide some tips on the values I should use with the binop1 boxes conaining * 127. and / 127. for the feedback fader? My code is below. Basically, I can only move my feedback fader about 25% across the width of the fader, then the feedback is at 100%. What values should I be using to change this? The delay time works fine, and the output, dry, and wet mix faders work fine as well (though the output seems a bit low, which I can fix). What has me curious is why I would come out of the pp object and go to a * 127 binop1, yet come out of the fader with a / 127 binop1. Isn't this a wash? I don't understand this.
      Thanks / Kris
    • Sep 30 2006 | 11:00 pm
      Oh, and please excuse the rat's nest of wires and connections in the patch. it looks like a nightmare without any connectionn bending, but it's functional nonetheless.
      K-
    • Oct 01 2006 | 5:51 pm
      I just thought I would follow up with this and say that someone on the Pluggo list helped me solve the problem. The problem is that in my pp object argument for delay feedback, I was using 0. and 1000. as my min. and max. values, but should have been using 0 and 1000. I changed that, and it worked like a charm in the plug. I'm off to the wonderful world of building my own plugins now. :)
      Thanks to all again,
      Kris
    • Oct 01 2006 | 6:12 pm
      Quote: info@krispenhartung.com wrote on Sun, 01 October 2006 11:51 ---------------------------------------------------- > I changed that, and it worked like a charm in the plug. I'm off to the wonderful world of building my own plugins now. :) > Kris
      vst-mac.info is eagerly awaiting your first public release.
    • Oct 01 2006 | 6:16 pm
      Uh oh...but I'm using XP. Can an XP MAX user build a plug to work on mac? / K
      Quote: Roman Thilenius wrote on Sun, 01 October 2006 12:12 ---------------------------------------------------- > Quote: info@krispenhartung.com wrote on Sun, 01 October 2006 11:51 > ---------------------------------------------------- > > I changed that, and it worked like a charm in the plug. I'm off to the wonderful world of building my own plugins now. :) > > Kris > > > vst-mac.info is eagerly awaiting your first public release. ----------------------------------------------------
    • Oct 01 2006 | 6:19 pm
      In a word no, but I'm sure someone would compile the plugin for you on a mac.
    • Oct 01 2006 | 6:24 pm
      ---------------------------------------------------- > Uh oh...but I'm using XP. Can an XP MAX user build a plug to work on mac? / K
      there are several people currently working on implementing "plug-in distribution including source" as the regular form of releasing plug-ins. some people already started it doing with their own software and i will join too on my next website update.
    • Oct 01 2006 | 6:49 pm
      hello
      recently i changed some things in my web site. among them, some max patches and externals were included. for instance, some implementations of daubechies wavelettes transform, stocastic distributions and other things, as closed works. in all cases, source code in max or c is provided.
      for spanish readers, some new texts have been added. they discusses about listening and the uses of "real time" term in non technological musical contexts.
      jmb
      jose manuel berenguer jmbeal@telefonica.net +34932857046 +34696538403. http:// www.sonoscop.net/jmb/ jmberenguer@sonoscop.net +34933064128. http://www.sonoscop.net/ caos->sonoscop. cccb. montalegre, 5. 08001 barcelona spain
    • Oct 01 2006 | 9:15 pm
      Quote: Roman Thilenius wrote on Sun, 01 October 2006 12:24 ---------------------------------------------------- > there are several people currently working on implementing > "plug-in distribution including source" as the regular > form of releasing plug-ins. some people already started it > doing with their own software and i will join too on my > next website update. > ----------------------------------------------------
      This is great. I am a member of the Reaktor library, and I really like the way that tool is constructed, and the availability of ensembles is massive. Hence, a centalized respository for MAX/MSP patches and/or plugs would be outstanding, or even a few de-centralized sites. The more the better. And of course, I more interested in those for live performance, especially guitar.
      My plans for my utterly simple minded delay patch/plug is to build on it and create an approximation of a patch I have on my Boss VF-1 processor. It is essentially two pitch shifters and two delays that feed the pitch back in on itself, thus allowing ascending and descending octave arpegiation; but the most interesting effect for me is when you crank the feedback up with some higher delay times...makes some really rich and twisted pad-like sounds...anyway, I'm sure someone has already created a MAX/MSP patch like that, but is more of the principle of doing it myself.
      Kris
    • Oct 01 2006 | 9:30 pm
      shucks,
      There are lots of max sites..... nothing like the Reaktor ensemble library though. Probably a good thing =/ There are some pretty crazy reaktor ensembles.
      There's the user pages here and all that. There's a listing of 3rd party externals for windows too somewhere [besides maxobjects.com]
      gee willickers
    • Oct 01 2006 | 9:40 pm
      I think the power of MAX/MSP and what people can do with it, is what makes searching for what I want difficult. At the Reaktor library, if I want effects for live performance, I can easily find them...modulation, delays, pitch, multi-effects, experimental effects, and so on. When I start Googling for MAX/MSP patches, I usually end up finding a site of patches that are not at all useful for live performance on the guitar, but do all sorts of crazy and unbelievable things like computations, synthesis, vistual effects, etc. It would be nice to find a MAX/MSP patch library just for performing musicians....of course, it may very well be out there if I search long enough. And then there is the issue of pay-only pathches...and some sites, like on the maxobjects site take me to places where I have no idea what I'm looking at...a MAX patch that will turn my coffee maker on in the morning? :)
      Kris
      Quote: DrSbaitso wrote on Sun, 01 October 2006 15:30 ---------------------------------------------------- > shucks, > > There are lots of max sites..... nothing like the Reaktor ensemble library though. Probably a good thing =/ There are some pretty crazy reaktor ensembles. > > There's the user pages here and all that. There's a listing of 3rd party externals for windows too somewhere [besides maxobjects.com] > > gee willickers > > > ----------------------------------------------------
    • Oct 01 2006 | 9:44 pm
      Yeah, Reaktor is much better for that sort of thing =/ The way it's structured and the caps it has on philosophy and lack of dependencies upon "other resources" all make it easier to pick and combine things. After all, you can chain like 2-3 high level concepts together in Reaktor and the structuring from the get-go will result in that as being apart of the outcome. Not so in Max. Max is too open ended with everything. From usage, to patch structure, to using abstractions... it all makes it very difficult. Maxers are much more unique in that patches wind up much more unique than Reaktor users. Good or bad, well, both..., really.
    • Oct 01 2006 | 9:51 pm
      Also, I don't think I've ever really found much use for another maxers patch/collective. They just don't ever make sense to me. Even pluggo plugins.
      My idea of sharing in max is building a set of intermediate abstractions or lower level externals to share with the community. Right now I have like 650 3rd party externals [.mxe] files in my search path. To me, another persons idea of efficiency while working with in Max is the real way things are shared around here.
    • Oct 01 2006 | 10:00 pm
      I was just thinking, if reaktor ever built in the capability to convert their ensembles to vst plugins, I'd be in heaven. I already run Reaktor inside of MAX, but it's just a bit funky with all the snaps and everything..not as easy to control as with VSTs and presets.
      Kris
      Quote: DrSbaitso wrote on Sun, 01 October 2006 15:44 ---------------------------------------------------- > Yeah, Reaktor is much better for that sort of thing =/ The way it's structured and the caps it has on philosophy and lack of dependencies upon "other resources" all make it easier to pick and combine things. After all, you can chain like 2-3 high level concepts together in Reaktor and the structuring from the get-go will result in that as being apart of the outcome. Not so in Max. Max is too open ended with everything. From usage, to patch structure, to using abstractions... it all makes it very difficult. Maxers are much more unique in that patches wind up much more unique than Reaktor users. Good or bad, well, both..., really. ----------------------------------------------------
    • Oct 01 2006 | 11:37 pm
      Well, that would be nice, I must admit. NI is retarded. Synthedit/Synthmaker/Pluggo will have to suffice ;)
    • Oct 02 2006 | 3:22 pm
      Wow, i've been away for a few days and after checking my emails I see this thread's come alive!
      Some interesting info on the basics of Pluggo development too, which is nice to read. I've actually come to a few problems myself but whilst trying to work out how best to explain them i've actually stumbled on the solution, which has been poetry in motion.
      My first pluggo's been an attempt to make a multiband delay using the FFT object to split the signals into seperate frequency bands and then delaying each of them by different factors. Mainly because the use of [FFT~] is something I really need to brush up on, but also because i thought it'd make an interesting basis for applying more complex effects to later. So far the signs are good and i've managed to make some interesting rhythms by applying a single looped drum hit to it...but there's still quite some distance to go with it yet.
      Kris: I took a look at your patch, (the real rats nest one), and can i suggest you try right clcking on your connections and then selecting align, it's a very usefull trick for patch intelligibility. Also when you're looping your connections back round to the [pp] objects, if you hold down ctrl it'll let you make "segmented patch cords" without having to have them selected permanently, (which really annoys me). By doing that you can fold them back round segment by segment and make your connections go round corners, if that makes sense. Sorry I can't be of more help to you yet, (and even more sorry if that seems patronising because it's not intended to be)...just some very small bits of wisdom from one Pluggo newbie to another :)
      Roman: If i've understood what you're saying, that you're working on a way of cross comaptibility between Plugs compiled on different platforms being interchangable, that'd be an excellent development...especially for us XP users because there's so many good looking Pluggos out there that are Mac only :(
      DrSbaitso: NI is retarded, you've got that right, and most of their plugins are chronic CPU hogs too! ;)
    • Oct 06 2006 | 8:25 pm
      Krispen Hartung wrote: > Uh oh...but I'm using XP. Can an XP MAX user build a plug to work on > mac? / K
      I can build it for you... ;-)
      I still didn't release my nice pluggos to the public...
      Stefan
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()--------www.ccmix.com