Sound quality in MAX....


    Aug 20 2008 | 8:06 pm
    Hi
    through the years I have heard (and still hear) people complaining
    that the sound quality of the MaxMSP engine is "poor"
    I don't know how "poor" it is, and this is not the subject of this
    post; but some of those people did point that the "sound quality" of
    CSound or Reaktor is way better (or Super Collider) - and even if I
    don't have any personal opinion on this subject, some of the people
    saying this seem to know what they are talking about (but not all of
    them !!)
    Now my question is:
    IF the sound quality (or DSP engine, or whatever) of, say, CSound or
    Reaktor is better, WHEN I use Reaktor as a plug-in or CSound via the
    csound~ object in MAX, do I have "max quality" or "Reaktor/CSound
    quality" ??
    Obviously a plug-in/other software used in max will at some point
    have its sound carried by MSP (be it for simple routing - out volume,
    pan, or maybe simply the DAC....
    ___as said - don't know how true it is, and IF it was if it still is
    - and maybe in Max 5 it's different (I did not switched to max5):
    But, since I am willing to try other software (CSound is very
    tempting) I am interested to know - and one of the lessons on C74
    site describes integration of other sofwares into max: using them
    this way seems very interesting.
    many thanks
    best
    kasper
    --
    Kasper T. Toeplitz
    noise, composition, bass, computer

    • Aug 20 2008 | 8:15 pm
      this is something that immediately leapt out at me when I first
      played around with the SuperCollider examples
      how amazing the sound quality on all their patches was compared to
      Max/MSP
      never got to doing a direct A/B comparison but it would be good to
      know why this is...
      I posted something to this list about this years ago but never got a
      response
      anyone?
      On Aug 20, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:
      > Hi
      >
      > through the years I have heard (and still hear) people complaining
      > that the sound quality of the MaxMSP engine is "poor"
      >
      > I don't know how "poor" it is, and this is not the subject of this
      > post; but some of those people did point that the "sound quality"
      > of CSound or Reaktor is way better (or Super Collider) - and even
      > if I don't have any personal opinion on this subject, some of the
      > people saying this seem to know what they are talking about (but
      > not all of them !!)
      >
      > Now my question is:
      >
      > IF the sound quality (or DSP engine, or whatever) of, say, CSound
      > or Reaktor is better, WHEN I use Reaktor as a plug-in or CSound via
      > the csound~ object in MAX, do I have "max quality" or "Reaktor/
      > CSound quality" ??
      >
      > Obviously a plug-in/other software used in max will at some point
      > have its sound carried by MSP (be it for simple routing - out
      > volume, pan, or maybe simply the DAC....
      >
      > ___as said - don't know how true it is, and IF it was if it still
      > is - and maybe in Max 5 it's different (I did not switched to
      > max5): But, since I am willing to try other software (CSound is
      > very tempting) I am interested to know - and one of the lessons on
      > C74 site describes integration of other sofwares into max: using
      > them this way seems very interesting.
      >
      > many thanks
      >
      > best
      >
      > kasper
      > --
      > Kasper T. Toeplitz
      > noise, composition, bass, computer
      > http://www.sleazeArt.com
      >
      > http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
      >
    • Aug 20 2008 | 8:32 pm
      That's a good question that I would like to know the answer to also.
      I don't know about the math but just by listening I am of the opinion
      that supercollider and csound are superior to max in terms of sound
      quality. For me quality means clarity and freshness. You can hear
      this difference if you compare a simple oscilator in supercollider or
      csound with one in max. Same with filters. However, a lot of this
      depends on what it is that you're trying to do and how you code it.
      Best
      Peiman
      On 20 Aug 2008, at 21:06, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:
      > Hi
      >
      > through the years I have heard (and still hear) people complaining
      > that the sound quality of the MaxMSP engine is "poor"
      >
      > I don't know how "poor" it is, and this is not the subject of this
      > post; but some of those people did point that the "sound quality"
      > of CSound or Reaktor is way better (or Super Collider) - and even
      > if I don't have any personal opinion on this subject, some of the
      > people saying this seem to know what they are talking about (but
      > not all of them !!)
      >
      > Now my question is:
      >
      > IF the sound quality (or DSP engine, or whatever) of, say, CSound
      > or Reaktor is better, WHEN I use Reaktor as a plug-in or CSound via
      > the csound~ object in MAX, do I have "max quality" or "Reaktor/
      > CSound quality" ??
      >
      > Obviously a plug-in/other software used in max will at some point
      > have its sound carried by MSP (be it for simple routing - out
      > volume, pan, or maybe simply the DAC....
      >
      > ___as said - don't know how true it is, and IF it was if it still
      > is - and maybe in Max 5 it's different (I did not switched to
      > max5): But, since I am willing to try other software (CSound is
      > very tempting) I am interested to know - and one of the lessons on
      > C74 site describes integration of other sofwares into max: using
      > them this way seems very interesting.
      >
      > many thanks
      >
      > best
      >
      > kasper
      > --
      > Kasper T. Toeplitz
      > noise, composition, bass, computer
      > http://www.sleazeArt.com
      >
      > http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
      >
    • Aug 20 2008 | 8:43 pm
      Hi,
      All the best
      --
      Alessandro Fogar
      2008/8/20 Kim Cascone :
      > this is something that immediately leapt out at me when I first played
      > around with the SuperCollider examples
      > how amazing the sound quality on all their patches was compared to Max/MSP
      > never got to doing a direct A/B comparison but it would be good to know why
      > this is...
      > I posted something to this list about this years ago but never got a
      > response
      > anyone?
      >
      >
      > On Aug 20, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:
      >
      >> Hi
      >>
      >> through the years I have heard (and still hear) people complaining that
      >> the sound quality of the MaxMSP engine is "poor"
      >>
      >> I don't know how "poor" it is, and this is not the subject of this post;
      >> but some of those people did point that the "sound quality" of CSound or
      >> Reaktor is way better (or Super Collider) - and even if I don't have any
      >> personal opinion on this subject, some of the people saying this seem to
      >> know what they are talking about (but not all of them !!)
      >>
      >> Now my question is:
      >>
      >> IF the sound quality (or DSP engine, or whatever) of, say, CSound or
      >> Reaktor is better, WHEN I use Reaktor as a plug-in or CSound via the csound~
      >> object in MAX, do I have "max quality" or "Reaktor/CSound quality" ??
      >>
      >> Obviously a plug-in/other software used in max will at some point have its
      >> sound carried by MSP (be it for simple routing - out volume, pan, or maybe
      >> simply the DAC....
      >>
      >> ___as said - don't know how true it is, and IF it was if it still is - and
      >> maybe in Max 5 it's different (I did not switched to max5): But, since I am
      >> willing to try other software (CSound is very tempting) I am interested to
      >> know - and one of the lessons on C74 site describes integration of other
      >> sofwares into max: using them this way seems very interesting.
      >>
      >> many thanks
      >>
      >> best
      >>
      >> kasper
      >> --
      >> Kasper T. Toeplitz
      >> noise, composition, bass, computer
      >> http://www.sleazeArt.com
      >>
      >> http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
      >>
      >
      >
    • Aug 20 2008 | 8:51 pm
      without drawing harsch consequences, I can say through my experiences that
      even a soundfile playback would sound different in MaxMSP than Logic. And
      why not in Csound or Supercollider. This difference will be more obvious
      and clear in a quality listening environment and with high end audio
      interface/loudspeakers.
      sinan
      > Hi
      >
      > through the years I have heard (and still hear) people complaining
      > that the sound quality of the MaxMSP engine is "poor"
      >
      > I don't know how "poor" it is, and this is not the subject of this
      > post; but some of those people did point that the "sound quality" of
      > CSound or Reaktor is way better (or Super Collider) - and even if I
      > don't have any personal opinion on this subject, some of the people
      > saying this seem to know what they are talking about (but not all of
      > them !!)
      >
      > Now my question is:
      >
      > IF the sound quality (or DSP engine, or whatever) of, say, CSound or
      > Reaktor is better, WHEN I use Reaktor as a plug-in or CSound via the
      > csound~ object in MAX, do I have "max quality" or "Reaktor/CSound
      > quality" ??
      >
      > Obviously a plug-in/other software used in max will at some point
      > have its sound carried by MSP (be it for simple routing - out volume,
      > pan, or maybe simply the DAC....
      >
      > ___as said - don't know how true it is, and IF it was if it still is
      > - and maybe in Max 5 it's different (I did not switched to max5):
      > But, since I am willing to try other software (CSound is very
      > tempting) I am interested to know - and one of the lessons on C74
      > site describes integration of other sofwares into max: using them
      > this way seems very interesting.
      >
      > many thanks
      >
      > best
      >
      > kasper
      > --
      > Kasper T. Toeplitz
      > noise, composition, bass, computer
      > http://www.sleazeArt.com
      >
      > http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
      >
      >
      Sinan Bokesoy
      sinan@sonic-disorder.com
      www.sonic-disorder.com
    • Aug 20 2008 | 8:53 pm
      I am also under the impression that both supercollider and csound sound better.
      I'd guess that it might have to do with how anti-aliasing is handled and the type of interpolation used, specifically in oscillators.
      Also, a wider range of (more refined) filters is available for both supercollider and csound.
      Less aliasing, better interpolation and nicer filters could explain for much of the perceived difference, but again, I'm just guessing.
      @Kasper:
      I think that the sound quality difference is in the DSP of supercollider and csound. Using these languages inside a bigger Max/MSP framework will give still give you their sonic benefits. Panning, fading or some minor further processing will not negate that.
      I think you should look at it as using a better mic for an instrument that you then process further in Max. The better the sound quality you start with, the nicer the result. Similarly, a nicer sounding oscillator or filter will still sound nicer after further processing in Max.
      BTW, I think there is very little - if any - difference in sound quality between sc/csound and max when it comes to multiplying signals (level/pan), and other basic things like playing a file from disk/ram.
      Regards,
      Klaas-Jan
    • Aug 20 2008 | 8:59 pm
      Hi,
      look also here:
      All the best
      --
      Alessandro Fogar
      2008/8/20 Alessandro Fogar :
      > Hi,
      >
      > http://lists.create.ucsb.edu/pipermail/sc-users/2004-April/009580.html
      >
      > All the best
      >
      > --
      > Alessandro Fogar
      >
      > http://www.fogar.it
      >
      > 2008/8/20 Kim Cascone :
      >> this is something that immediately leapt out at me when I first played
      >> around with the SuperCollider examples
      >> how amazing the sound quality on all their patches was compared to Max/MSP
      >> never got to doing a direct A/B comparison but it would be good to know why
      >> this is...
      >> I posted something to this list about this years ago but never got a
      >> response
      >> anyone?
      >>
      >>
      >> On Aug 20, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:
      >>
      >>> Hi
      >>>
      >>> through the years I have heard (and still hear) people complaining that
      >>> the sound quality of the MaxMSP engine is "poor"
      >>>
      >>> I don't know how "poor" it is, and this is not the subject of this post;
      >>> but some of those people did point that the "sound quality" of CSound or
      >>> Reaktor is way better (or Super Collider) - and even if I don't have any
      >>> personal opinion on this subject, some of the people saying this seem to
      >>> know what they are talking about (but not all of them !!)
      >>>
      >>> Now my question is:
      >>>
      >>> IF the sound quality (or DSP engine, or whatever) of, say, CSound or
      >>> Reaktor is better, WHEN I use Reaktor as a plug-in or CSound via the csound~
      >>> object in MAX, do I have "max quality" or "Reaktor/CSound quality" ??
      >>>
      >>> Obviously a plug-in/other software used in max will at some point have its
      >>> sound carried by MSP (be it for simple routing - out volume, pan, or maybe
      >>> simply the DAC....
      >>>
      >>> ___as said - don't know how true it is, and IF it was if it still is - and
      >>> maybe in Max 5 it's different (I did not switched to max5): But, since I am
      >>> willing to try other software (CSound is very tempting) I am interested to
      >>> know - and one of the lessons on C74 site describes integration of other
      >>> sofwares into max: using them this way seems very interesting.
      >>>
      >>> many thanks
      >>>
      >>> best
      >>>
      >>> kasper
      >>> --
      >>> Kasper T. Toeplitz
      >>> noise, composition, bass, computer
      >>> http://www.sleazeArt.com
      >>>
      >>> http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >
    • Aug 20 2008 | 9:00 pm
      >Hi,
      >
      >http://lists.create.ucsb.edu/pipermail/sc-users/2004-April/009580.html
      >
      yeah, but the question was not IF they are different (better) but
      what happens (sound-quality wise) when one is embedded in the other
      (this does not apply to SC - but does to CSound)
      best
      kasper
    • Aug 20 2008 | 9:06 pm
      >
      >@Kasper:
      >I think that the sound quality difference is in the DSP of
      >supercollider and csound. Using these languages inside a bigger
      >Max/MSP framework will give still give you their sonic benefits.
      >Panning, fading or some minor further processing will not negate
      >that.
      >
      >I think you should look at it as using a better mic for an
      >instrument that you then process further in Max. The better the
      >sound quality you start with, the nicer the result. Similarly, a
      >nicer sounding oscillator or filter will still sound nicer after<