soundflower, aggregate & max


    Jun 13 2007 | 9:49 am
    hi
    ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____
    I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or "external loop") inside maxmsp.
    what i am trying to achive is
    _the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the build-in audio, later will be sound card)
    _at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with soundflower - to Guitar rig
    _the guitar Rig outputs go back into max
    _the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio
    (all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest soundflower)
    **********
    what i tried to do is to _create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and 3 & 4 the soundflower2ch channels.
    * but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2 on built-in outs (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L & R)
    _I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop (audio feedback) in GR...
    ___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy. The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it (apart from the small "read me")
    I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND receive the audio
    any help??
    thanks
    kasper -- Kasper T. Toeplitz noise, composition, bass, computer http://www.sleazeArt.com

    • Jun 13 2007 | 10:14 am
      This is the way it should work:
      Hth, Mattijs
      Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 11:49 ---------------------------------------------------- > hi > > ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____ > > I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or > "external loop") inside maxmsp. > > what i am trying to achive is > > _the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the > build-in audio, later will be sound card) > > _at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with > soundflower - to Guitar rig > > _the guitar Rig outputs go back into max > > _the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio > > (all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest > soundflower) > > ********** > > what i tried to do is to > _create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate > audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and > 3 & 4 the soundflower2ch channels. > > * but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2 > on built-in outs (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L > & R) > > _I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop > (audio feedback) in GR... > > > ___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using > soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy. > The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it > (apart from the small "read me") > > I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND > receive the audio > > any help?? > > thanks > > kasper > -- > Kasper T. Toeplitz > noise, composition, bass, computer > http://www.sleazeArt.com > > http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart > > ----------------------------------------------------
    • Jun 13 2007 | 10:20 am
      Kasper T Toeplitz skrev: > hi > > ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____ > > I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or > "external loop") inside maxmsp. Hi Kasper,
      just out of curiosity, what is the particular reason for not running Guitar Rig as a vst plugin inside maxmsp?
      Thanks, Andreas.
    • Jun 13 2007 | 10:39 am
      thanks yes, this i sthe way it _should_ work, but it does not:
      _the output of GRig is send to max's adc~ 1 2 , BUT is also send to guitar Rig input, creating an audio feedback (by the way, taht's a cool way to create feedback in Grig, something a lot of people ask for!
      _and of course sending anything from max to Grig produces a feedback as well
      I belive the way to go would be to use soundflower16ch, and sending on different channels than receiving - that's what i am trying to do since a few hours (with a break to download Jack X..)
      many thanks
      kasper
      >This is the way it should work: > >
      > > hi >> >> ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____ >> >> I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or >> "external loop") inside maxmsp. >> >> what i am trying to achive is >> >> _the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the >> build-in audio, later will be sound card) >> >> _at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with >> soundflower - to Guitar rig >> >> _the guitar Rig outputs go back into max >> >> _the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio >> >> (all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest >> soundflower) >> >> ********** >> >> what i tried to do is to >> _create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate >> audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and >> 3 & 4 the soundflower2ch channels. >> >> * but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2 >> on built-in outs (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L >> & R) >> >> _I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop >> (audio feedback) in GR... >> >> >> ___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using >> soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy. >> The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it >> (apart from the small "read me") >> >> I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND >> receive the audio >> >> any help?? >> >> thanks >> > > kasper
    • Jun 13 2007 | 10:44 am
      >Kasper T Toeplitz skrev: >>hi >> >>___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____ >> >>I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or >>"external loop") inside maxmsp. >Hi Kasper, > >just out of curiosity, what is the particular reason for not running >Guitar Rig as a vst plugin inside maxmsp?
      just because i noticed that the same GRig "patch" (same devices, same order etc) use much less CPU when run as standalone
      my max/grig patch (grig as vst plug-in) is a little too heavy for my G4 pBook, and since my grig set up (bigMuff, sans amp, amp + cabinet) takes 10/15% less CPU when run as stand alone, i thought it would be a good solution.
      if I manage to run the audio, next will be the iac midi control - but i am not yet there
      best
      kasper -- Kasper T. Toeplitz noise, composition, bass, computer http://www.sleazeArt.com
    • Jun 13 2007 | 11:16 am
      ok, so i think it works now:
      _i did an aggregate with (first) build-in audio (second) soundflower16
      _audio build-in works as it always did (ins/outs 1&2)
      _I send (in stereo) to GRig through dac~ 3 4 _I send from GRig on channles 5 & 6 (receiving it in max on adc~ 5 6)
      I still have to try how robust it is, i also have a feeling than the order of starting the apps does a change.
      but it seems to be willing to work
      best
      kasper -- Kasper T. Toeplitz noise, composition, bass, computer http://www.sleazeArt.com
    • Jun 13 2007 | 12:15 pm
      Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 12:39 ---------------------------------------------------- > thanks > yes, this i sthe way it _should_ work, but it does not: > > _the output of GRig is send to max's adc~ 1 2 , BUT is also send to > guitar Rig input, creating an audio feedback (by the way, taht's a > cool way to create feedback in Grig, something a lot of people ask > for!
      Then I guess you'll have to find out why guitar rig sends its output back to its input, right? The patch assumes that guitar rig receives on input 1 & 2 and sends on output 1 & 2.
      btw You did select the aggregate device as sound driver in max -and- guitar rig, right?
      btw2, the underscores don't increase readability here ;)
      > > _and of course sending anything from max to Grig produces a feedback as well > > I belive the way to go would be to use soundflower16ch, and sending > on different channels than receiving - that's what i am trying to do > since a few hours (with a break to download Jack X..)
    • Jun 13 2007 | 12:34 pm
      > >Then I guess you'll have to find out why guitar rig sends its output >back to its input, right? The patch assumes that guitar rig receives >on input 1 & 2 and sends on output 1 & 2.
      sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works: If you want an application to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio) you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels or a feedback loop will be created.
      of course i am not 100% sure to understand, but it seems to mean that if i send to GR on channel 3, GR can not output on channel 3 without feedback. At least this is how i understand this, and that's how it works now (i send to GR on channels 3 4 and from CG on 5 6 - and this works)
      > >btw You did select the aggregate device as sound driver in max -and- >guitar rig, right?
      righht
      > >btw2, the underscores don't increase readability here ;) > sorry for that
      best
      kasper
    • Jun 13 2007 | 1:36 pm
      Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 14:34 ---------------------------------------------------- > sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works: > If you want an application > to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using > Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio) > you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels > or a feedback loop will be created.
      Aa! Of course. Sorry for that. Here is an updated patch (which you seem to have figured out by yourself, but just to be sure we understand each other)
      An important comment which might have been your problem previously:
      Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange this is not set correctly by default.
      Mattijs
    • Jun 13 2007 | 3:27 pm
      >Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 14:34 >---------------------------------------------------- >> sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works: >> If you want an application >> to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using >> Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio) >> you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels >> or a feedback loop will be created. > >Aa! Of course. Sorry for that. Here is an updated patch (which you >seem to have figured out by yourself, but just to be sure we >understand each other)
      yeah, that's it
      when you think about it it's totally right and using the same number (same channel) internally is stupid - how the machine could know I want it from here to there and not from there to here???
      ok, I made the same mistake!
      >An important comment which might have been your problem previously: > >Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in >DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange >this is not set correctly by default.
      I personaly prefer to keep the outs 1 & 2 the "basic outs" (and ins) - ie either build in or the first 2 of a sound card - makes so much easier to check the examples, use old patches etc.
      best
      kasper
    • Jun 14 2007 | 10:12 pm
      Mattijs Kneppers schrieb: > Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in > DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange > this is not set correctly by default.
      It is correct by default, but if you changed it once in your Max life, Max will remember what you forgot some years ago... ;-)
      Stefan
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
    • Jun 15 2007 | 8:05 am
      Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Fri, 15 June 2007 00:12 ---------------------------------------------------- > Mattijs Kneppers schrieb: > > Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in > > DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange > > this is not set correctly by default. > > It is correct by default, but if you changed it once in your Max life, > Max will remember what you forgot some years ago... ;-)
      No. It is correct up to channel 16. channel 17 and 18 are in the next tab and in the next tab all channels are set to off by default.
      Mattijs
    • Jun 16 2007 | 4:11 pm
      Hi all,
      I am trying to send audio from jit.qt.movie to a soundflower channel and then back into max and out again trough the headphones/speakers using an aggregate device. I have played around with it and i can get the audio from the movie into max but then i can't output it through my headphones/speakers.
      I have set up my agg device as: soundflower(2ch) Built in Output
      is that correct?
      so then in max i will get the signal in adc~ 1 2 and send it out dac~ 3 4
      I have tried this and it doesn't work. How should I set my system sound preferences; to the aggergate device?
      any help would be super! It would be really good to finally understand soundflower and aggregate devices.
      thanks,
      tim
    • Jun 16 2007 | 5:21 pm
      Tim, First thing is that you shouldn't need to use the Sound control panel in System Preferences--you can do all of your system config. in Audio Midi Setup. Look there first to verify the ordering of the channels in your aggregate device. If, when you created the aggregate, you chose soundflower (2 ch) first, then those should indeed show as the first two channels when you display the Properties for your aggregate device. The Built-in Audio should show as channels 3 and 4 in both input and output. If you don't see all four inputs and outputs in the properties, it could be because you have a different sample rate selected for the individual drivers that you aggregated. Look in the properties for both Soundflower (2 ch) and Built in Audio and make sure they are set to the same sample rate. Then the properties for your aggregate device should show all four ins and all four outs.
      Second thing is that the in and out channel numbers in MSP are "logical" channel numbers, and they need to be mapped to the available channels in the driver you are using. In the DSP Status window, click on I/O Mappings. In the case you described, the default mapping should work--1 to 1, 2 to 2, 3 to 3, and 4 to 4 for both in and out.
      It seems like you are doing everything correctly--just make sure that you have the sample rates matching and that you are not using Built in Audio 2, which only has inputs and not outputs (the line input on Powerbooks and other models).
      Best, Tim
    • Jun 17 2007 | 1:13 am
      Hi Tim,
      That is very helpful and makes things alot clearer. The only problem is as soon as i went to change or check the sample rates were the same soundflower went to 96000.2 kHz and i can't change it back to 44100.2 kHz? It is bizarre. Has it happened to anyone?
      Cheers,
      Tim
    • Jun 17 2007 | 1:47 am
      Quote: Timothy Devine wrote on Sat, 16 June 2007 21:13 ---------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tim, > > That is very helpful and makes things alot clearer. The only problem is as soon as i went to change or check the sample rates were the same soundflower went to 96000.2 kHz and i can't change it back to 44100.2 kHz? It is bizarre. Has it happened to anyone? > > Cheers, > > Tim ----------------------------------------------------
      Yes, I have. First, you must open Audio Midi Setup and in the Properties for menu, select Built-in Audio, and change its sample rate to your desired rate (I guess 96000). Then select Soundflower (2 channel) and do the same for that. Then select your aggregate driver, and it should now show 96000 as the selected format. Under both the audio input column and the audio output column you will find a selection menu that allows you to select both Soundflower Input Stream #1, and Stream 2, which is your Built-in. If you cannot access both, it is probably because the sample rates are not matched.
      Once that is set, you will need to relaunch Max/MSP if it is running, and open the DSP status box. Choose your driver and reset the sampling rate to 96000. Try turning it on and off, closing it and reopening it. If it stays at 96000 and still shows 4 of each input and output channels, then you should be ready to sail.
    • Jun 17 2007 | 1:49 am
      ok so i restarted and it works now... still open to suggestions as to why and how to fix the sample rate w/o having to restart...
      BUT
      It works so i can get audio from a jit.qt.movie via soundflower and an aggregate device. Fantastic. The question now is how would you split two sources of audio that you can't set output for i.e jit.qt.movie and iTunes, which use the default output?
      Is it possible?
      Cheers,
      tim
    • Jun 17 2007 | 4:22 pm
      If you set the default device to Soundflower (2 ch), then you can bring the outputs from those apps into any other app. Or you can use the SoundflowerBed for easy routing.
      I typically set up an aggregate device that has Soundflower (16 ch) first and built-in audio second (or whatever device I am using for output). Then I set the Soundflower (16 ch) as the default output, and use the first two channels of it for that purpose. Then, in Max, channels 1 and 2 of my aggregate device are bringing in audio from those kinds of apps, and I have 14 more soundflower channels to move things around (say to AU Lab, etc.). Then output channels 17 and 18 of my aggregate device go to my speakers/headphones.