brendan mccloskey

I am really getting very tired of 'musicians' 'playing' iPads (and all other associated controllers), making extra-musical gestures, leaning on notes, extending elbows, wiggling fingers, frowning, grimacing, feigning effort, when it's the SOFTWARE DOING ALL F'N THE WORK!!! Come on people, you're not fooling anyone.

Let Max be the sound engine, not the interface, purleease.

a-propos-of-nothing-please-ignore

Well, you'd like seeing me perform then, as even though I do use the aforementioned devices (and others of my own devising), I still look like a minimally moving grumpy old sod.

(Note to self: never EVER drink and browse)

> (Note to self: never EVER drink and browse)

Hahaha... but your previous statement was actually very interesting... this is a real issue... to much oversimplified tools available...

In vino veritas, maybe? Well, I'm paying for it today :(

I may be something of a hypocrite, as the new iPad Pro looks very enticing, re contact gesture force, but 800 bucks, to a company that has resolved to not innovate anymore? Not from me.

Instrumentalists from my (our) generation need to see/sense physical and emotional effort in performance (did you see Yo Yo Ma perform all 6 'cello suites recently? Utterly sublime). And I just don't see it in many performances these days. I am hoping for great things from Roger Linn, and Dave Wessell's legacy.

Rant over, back to house-husband chores.


2. As a mover-arounder, I feel that it gets me more in tune and concentrated on my buttons and faders, when I use them. I also always play standing up for the same reason.

3. Do you find that holding your electric guitar vertically changes the sound noticeably?

1. Let's face it, it's showbiz.
2. As a mover-arounder, I feel that it gets me more in tune and concentrated on my buttons and faders, when I use them.  I also always play standing up for the same reason.
3. Do you find that holding your electric guitar vertically changes the sound noticeably?

grimacing is very very important when you have several biquads in your patch (if you dont, they might explode!)

those second fret bends are really hard \m/; actually, that shot was taken by a guy in the press pit, and he was visually begging me for a posed shot throughout the gig. I enjoy performers moving, getting into the groove, connecting with, erm, something, during performance. But extra-musical gestures are unnecessary when you're touching a glass screen.

Why are they unnecessary? How are they different than touching guitar frets, or keys on an eigenharp or a Hakam continuum? Sending the right OSC message from an Apple watch is quite difficult because of its small size. Are you somehow trying to correlate gestures with implied difficulty?

Why are they unnecessary? How are they different than touching guitar frets, or keys on an eigenharp or a Hakam continuum?  Sending the right OSC message from an Apple watch is quite  difficult because of its small size. Are you somehow trying to correlate gestures with implied difficulty?


This started as a frivolous, slightly inebriated rant (I do them about once every 2 years); but I should defend my statements, so let me clarify:

1. I am not dissing tablet users/performers, just those ones who feign and exaggerate an emotional AND physical connection to their interface/sound engine.

2. Conventional acoustic instruments, and many digital examples, provide a high level of multi-sensory and multi-modal feedback, for example, my steel guitar strings present 16lb psi tension and require a degree of effort to fret, pluck and bend, they vibrate and provide detailed information on their current state; the guitar body resonates in sympathy with those strings, etc etc.

3. I am somewhat envious of DMI designers who use and understand OSC, as I don't yet. but (final point)

4. Glass is not a dynamic material, in this regard it is not a conduit, but a barrier.

Shall I change my gravatar to one of me building DMIs, which I do much more of these days ;)

1. I am not dissing tablet users/performers, just those ones who feign and exaggerate an emotional AND physical connection to their interface/sound engine.
2. Conventional acoustic instruments, and many digital examples, provide a high level of multi-sensory and multi-modal feedback, for example, my steel guitar strings present 16lb psi tension and require a degree of effort to fret, pluck and bend, they vibrate and provide detailed information on their current state; the guitar body resonates in sympathy with those strings, etc etc.
3. I am somewhat envious of DMI designers who use and understand OSC, as I don't yet. but (final point)
4. Glass is not a dynamic material, in this regard it is not a conduit, but a barrier.

. . . . and I can't pretend to be an expert in 'effort - expressivity', there are numerous papers out there on this subject, my opinions in that domain are anecdotal.

actually some touch screens _are physical, the older ones from the 80ies and 90ies were all based on thin wires and the pressure of your finger was deforming the surface if i am not mistaken.

some are capacitive (""soft"), some are resistive ("hard"), others work optical. it is debatable if optical screens involve somehting physical. some optical screens would already react to input when it does not yet have actual contact to your finger, while others are sensitive to how hard you press.

and dont forge the influence of male puberty, which is one of the main sources of overexaggerated exertions. you know, no matter how physical the device is, human body is for sure.

actually some touch screens _are physical, the older ones from the 80ies and 90ies were all based on thin wires and the pressure of your finger was deforming the surface if i am not mistaken. 

http://music.cbc.ca/#!/blogs/2013/11/19-epic-examples-of-conductor-face

http://www.nytimes.com/video/magazine/1194833565213/immersion.html

ipad i dunno. pen might be good (best part is i read apple opened up ios so people can load apps for personal use w/o paying for dev license. it's a real computer now!) it's still kinda cursor mental model, like a mouse. okay for selecting big group, drawing paths, i like using 2 x/y as 2d tables to navigate 3d. like: 

http://cowboyprogramming.com/2008/04/01/practical-fluid-mechanics/

compare touch to a 3d or 2d game (imo most successful model we have so far of human computer interaction. the good stuff, mario, tetris, tempest 2000, doom, etc.) where people are aiming at moving targets, practicing to get better- and enjoying it! imagine if buttons on touch screen moved away when you tried to press them!

touch screen to play back previous animations could be good with pen. still, have to invent mental model for interaction. i'm not sure most people want to get all xenakis? i like trail of failure shown here: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSujEFY6NWg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9W_y8IlNro

 with sample recording or point a webcam at screen to convert action to music maybe. maybe vibratory feedback based on pressure to simulate give in a drum skin, but can you really hit touch screen hard enough yet?

the problem imo is people don't make enough challenges for themselves to navigate, with (funny and serious) consequences and paths to explore. i imagine it more like skateboarding, dub mixing (of audio and data)and video game level design...i don't understand those modern games (or music stuff for that matter...now that i think about it...) that are like power fantasy, scaled and quantized to remove challenge, where is the fun in that? i'm not really into just memorizing a bunch of buttons to push in order like the simon game either...

adding momentum to flonums and three finger drag on track pad (nice that you get locked into vertical), making it slippery like luigi can be fun. delta on key rate or use mirror to point webcam down at keys you can get pretty personal 

http://www.biometric-solutions.com//solutions/index.php?story=keystroke_dynamics

 have to map/program it all though... unfortunately i don't find jit.cellblock navigates and edits just with keyboard all that smoothly, weird with in-line edit you have to click with mouse not enter or something..and page up and down i'm not sure what's going with that moves different amount depending on size of cell...

dunno interface/interaction, i think is important... when new version of max comes out people sometimes have 'issues' with changes, but i'm assuming the stuff that get shared is mostly 'tuned' for general 'populist' use so does c74 really have a frame of reference for what people do and like and use beyond that? i'd be into stuff where selling point is it'll take years to learn and you'll never be as good as possible, but...

http://music.cbc.ca/#!/blogs/2013/11/19-epic-examples-of-conductor-face :)
or http://www.nytimes.com/video/magazine/1194833565213/immersion.html ?

ipad i dunno. pen might be good (best part is i read apple opened up ios so people can load apps for personal use w/o paying for dev license. it's a real computer now!)  it's still kinda cursor mental model, like a mouse. okay for selecting big group, drawing paths, i like using 2 x/y as 2d tables to navigate 3d. like: http://cowboyprogramming.com/2008/04/01/practical-fluid-mechanics/

compare touch to a 3d or 2d game (imo most successful model we have so far of human computer interaction.  the good stuff, mario, tetris, tempest 2000, doom, etc.) where people are aiming at moving targets, practicing to get better- and enjoying it! imagine if buttons on touch screen moved away when you tried to press them! 

touch screen to play back previous animations could be good with pen. still, have to invent mental model for interaction. i'm not sure most people want to get all xenakis?  i like trail of failure shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSujEFY6NWg or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9W_y8IlNro with sample recording or point a webcam at screen to convert action to music maybe. maybe vibratory feedback based on pressure to simulate give in a drum skin, but can you really hit touch screen hard enough yet?

the problem imo is people don't make enough challenges for themselves to navigate, with (funny and serious) consequences  and paths to explore. i imagine it more like skateboarding, dub mixing (of audio and data)and video game level design...i don't understand those modern games (or music stuff for that matter...now that i think about it...) that are like power fantasy, scaled and quantized to remove challenge, where is the fun in that? i'm not really into just memorizing a bunch of buttons to push in order like the simon game either...

adding momentum to flonums and three finger drag on track pad (nice that you get locked into vertical), making it slippery like luigi can be fun. delta on key rate or use mirror to point webcam down at keys you can get pretty personal http://www.biometric-solutions.com//solutions/index.php?story=keystroke_dynamics have to map/program it all though... unfortunately  i don't find jit.cellblock navigates and edits just with keyboard all that smoothly, weird with in-line edit you have to click with mouse not enter or something..and page up and down i'm not sure what's going with that moves different amount depending on size of cell...

dunno interface/interaction, i think is important... when new version of max comes out people sometimes have 'issues' with changes, but i'm assuming the stuff that get shared is mostly 'tuned' for general 'populist' use so does c74 really have a frame of reference for what people do and like and use beyond that? i'd be into stuff where selling point is it'll take years to learn and you'll never be as good as possible, but...


> it’s the SOFTWARE DOING ALL F’N THE WORK!!!

I've paid for Ableton Live Suite and downloaded all the packs, where are my groupies?

Seriously though, a piano is pretty much just an array of velocity sensitive buttons that will always give you the same sounds. When considering the unlimited amount of controllers you could have on an iPad and the unlimited amount of ways you could manipulate an unlimited amount of sounds, let's at least be consistent in our hate and not let people get away with this kind of shit:

Seriously though, a piano is pretty much just an array of velocity sensitive buttons that will always give you the same sounds. When considering the unlimited amount of controllers you could have on an iPad and the unlimited amount of ways you could manipulate an unlimited amount of sounds, let's at least be consistent in our hate and not let people get away with this kind of shit:
https://youtu.be/t7I2bvqwKFg?t=8m22s


What the listeners hear depend on how the performer moves. 

What the listeners hear depend on how the performer moves. http://www.themusiciansbrain.com/?p=492


http://mic.com/articles/124810/meet-dan-deacon-the-musician-with-a-genre-defying-sound-that-has-critics-buzzing?utm_source=policymicTBLR&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

I love this guy's embodied energy and sound.

I love this guy's embodied energy and sound.
g


If you guys are interested in the philosophical discussions and reflections about creating music in a computer and designing expressive interfaces, you should take a look at 

. The book is written as a series of essays that cover several topics.

If you guys are interested in the philosophical discussions and reflections about creating music in a computer and designing expressive interfaces, you should take a look at The Oxford Handbook of Computer Music. The book is written as a series of essays that cover several topics.


I think (or worry) about this every time I perform. One possible solution: perform with other people whose activities are more interesting.

Alternately, the number of people you can see listening with their eyes closed means you've either succeeded or failed miserably.

There continue to be good responses here; I regret using capital case in the OP; and also referring explicitly to iPads (and the like). I see people playing Launchpads or off-the-shelf Monomes, and doing the same thing. Exaggerating effort to influence audience perception. A former colleague of mine refers to the influence of "style" upon the communication of emotion/effort, and these are valid modes of such communication. I guess it's just the exaggeration I take offense to.

Some day very soon, dynamic and translucent micro-fibres will form the body of a touchscreen overlay, and we'll have XYZ touch control AND active haptic feedback. And then I'll eat my words.

To a certain extent I agree, but I wouldn't relegate this behavior to electronic/touch instruments only. This kind of hamming is present in all (instrumental) performance, and its presence in electronic instruments is simply part of the 'instrumentalization' of the electronics. It is treating the electronic instrument like any other, inherited gestures included.

One could argue that on a 'real' instrument this can have an effect on what we hear, but most of the time the movement/behavior is not bound in that, it comes from the general idea of what 'expression' looks like or hand-me-down-reinforcement from instrumental teachers (I *really* dislike seeing cellists/pianist really hamming it up....).

let’s at least be consistent in our hate and not let people get away with this kind of shit:

did you notice the bug crawling out of the piano at 8:38?

btw how about a grimace-recognition controller

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQua5ZNd9PQ

let’s at least be consistent in our hate and not let people get away with this kind of shit:
https://youtu.be/t7I2bvqwKFg?t=8m22s
did you notice the bug crawling out of the piano at 8:38?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQua5ZNd9PQ


oh my god I can't believe I didn't notice that, mofo's pretty big too

You make a convincing counter-argument, based on electronic musicians wishing to instrumentalise/embody their control of musical sound, to overcome that great disconnect. And yes, acoustic instrumentalists can be just as guilty, but we tend to forgive them more, because we understand that acoustic instruments require a degree of physical effort to excite them into making sound, whereas *most off-the-shelf* electronic devices don't.

on-topic : speaking of musicians-who-make-more-grimacing-and-air-movements-than-music, what do you think of orchestra conductors ?

was the bug alright ? :/
on-topic : speaking of musicians-who-make-more-grimacing-and-air-movements-than-music, what do you think of orchestra conductors ?


Speaking of bugs and safety during performance, a spider showed up on my snare last year when performing in france. Obviously a dangerous place to be for a bug...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI333Zfm8jM

I agree about being more forgiving to instrumentalists in general, but I think that is tied to the 'work' or 'craft' which we associate 'value' to in an instrumentalist. Learning a "real" instrument took "work" so therefor they are allowed this leeway, whereas an electronic performer is generally "just pushing buttons".

I "realize" I've used a lot of "quotes" in this "response".."."

So I did this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI333Zfm8jM

@Brendan
I agree about being more forgiving to instrumentalists in general, but I think that is tied to the 'work' or 'craft' which we associate 'value' to in an instrumentalist. Learning a "real" instrument took "work" so therefor they are allowed this leeway, whereas an electronic performer is generally "just pushing buttons".

I "realize" I've used a lot of "quotes" in this "response".."."


"Quotes" are what we "use" when we're a little "unsure" of our argument. They're our get out clause ;)

Did you blow the spider off your snare? Very humane!

Yeah, hehe. It happens pretty quick, and I considered stopping, but managed to work it in.

I think conductors, their gesticulations and expressive cues, are a completely unassailable and unique sphere. I would not be brave enough to even comment :) Although, in keeping with the theme of this thread, there are good and bad conductors.

Applications in digital world can produce a lot more than natural sounds that can be produced on a single instrument....so i guess i can go with the Digital sounds...also its fun too.....

@randy mystic "a lot more than natural sounds"

Max Mathews: "a violin will always sound like a violin" (CMJ 2009 33/3); exactly, but ONLY a violin can sound like a violin.

@Brendan : actually i think a conductor's "dance" is somewhat related to an electornic musician's "directing" of his electronic instruments (quote unquote ;) )

@Brendan : actually i think a conductor's "dance" is somewhat related to an electornic musician's "directing" of his electronic instruments (quote unquote ;) )
this is, of course, all very personnal.


I remember going to a kraftwerk gig ; they were all generally completely still except towards the end one of the guys (can't remember who but definitely not ralph or florian) was tapping his foot; as a consequence I became angry and confused

Absolutely, vichug; digital musicians are just as susceptible to making 'involuntary' emotional gestures.

floating point: "I became angry and confused" LOL

This is an interesting argument - i do like some 'performance' element in my 'live' electronic music. That said, if im watching someone use a cutoff knob or a d-beam (remember those?) with an intensity usually reserved for playing Rachmaninoff, there is a lingering sense that something very inauthentic is afoot.

This is an interesting argument - i do like some 'performance' element in my 'live' electronic music. That said, if im watching someone use a cutoff knob or a d-beam (remember those?) with an intensity usually reserved for playing Rachmaninoff,  there is a lingering sense that something very inauthentic is afoot.


Clara Rockmore playing electronic instruments with a "Rachmaninoff" intensity - à propos, since she is playing Rachmaninoff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmsx4oPy8nA

Clara Rockmore playing electronic instruments with a "Rachmaninoff" intensity - à propos, since she is playing Rachmaninoff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmsx4oPy8nA


gestures and mimics is for sure part of tze musical performance. but it does not have to be obvious. none at all (think kraftwerk) is also an interesting ingrident.

she even uses a microphone to catch and amplify her instintive moaning.

watch?v=RENCVlALCNc&feature=youtu.be&t=8m22s

why did we invent studio processors to get rid of such noises? it can be so bootiful - far more than in conjunction with tennis at least.

Like I've stated before I'm extremely interested in the philosophical questions and problems that come with a "Computer Music Performance".

For instance, the ability to program our own control interfaces and to which degree we have control or relinquish our involvement in the music being performed-generated (Cage Randomness vs Integral Serialism discussion). We could completely automate our performance leaving ourselves out of the equation and just play mimic on the stage, randomize everything, or work on creating very expressive and capable interfaces. Anything in the middle is fair game.

The lack of standard interfaces and its implications. (There's a reason the Piano is universal to this day, will our instruments-controls will ever be?.... I doubt it.... ). Nobody will ever compose for your instrument-interface but you, and that is a major change towards the future of music performance.

The role of the interpreter-composer-programmer in Computer Music is pretty much undefined (or at least self-defined) and that is great (probably the reason we're here in this very forum programming with Max) but very problematic. I don't think anybody will ever have any answers to this deep questions, but I've enjoyed your input on this matters.

Like I've stated before I'm extremely interested in the philosophical questions and problems that come with a "Computer Music Performance". 

The lack of standard interfaces and its implications. (There's a reason  the Piano is universal to this day, will our instruments-controls will ever be?.... I doubt it.... ). Nobody will ever compose for your instrument-interface but you, and that is a major change towards the future of music performance.

The role of the interpreter-composer-programmer in Computer Music is pretty much undefined (or at least self-defined) and that is great (probably the reason we're here in this very forum programming with Max) but very problematic. I don't think anybody will ever have any answers to this deep questions, but I've enjoyed your input on this matters.


I don't have any grand opinion on the subject, I can jstu talk of my own personal experience as another "mover-arounder".

I learned how to be a musician on an acoustic instrument from an early age, and repeatedly caught shit for some of the involuntary things I do when I performed (tongue out, strange contortions of the body, intense head bobbing etc.). Those things became a part of how I performed music regardless of the instrument, and when I began using electronic instruments, it was tough to unlearn some of those subconscious, extra-musical gestures.

Some people just can't help it is what I guess I am saying.

I don't have any grand opinion on the subject, I can jstu talk of my own personal experience as another  "mover-arounder".
I learned how to be a musician on an acoustic instrument from an early age, and repeatedly caught shit for some of the involuntary things I do when I performed (tongue out, strange contortions of the body, intense head bobbing etc.). Those things became a part of how I performed music regardless of the instrument, and when I began using electronic instruments, it was tough to unlearn some of those subconscious, extra-musical gestures.
Some people just can't help it is what I guess I am saying.


expressive cues in electronic music performance; please comment