Dear all, I’m really interested to buy Teleo ( http://www.makingthings.com/products/documentation/teleo_int ro_user_guide/index.html ) , "a line of hardware tools that provide an easy way to create unique interactive devices, machines, and environments by controlling a wide range of sensors and actuators".
Some doubt (sorry for my englsh!!!):
1 – Teleo Starter Kit (the 189$ one :-) should consist in a "Teleo Introductory Module", that is an hardware interface where it’s possible to link analog and digital sensors from 0 to 5 V. It also linkable to pc via USB.
This Starter kit includes also three sensors.
Should this inizial packet be enought to begin?
I mean, if I link sensors to Teleo and Teleo to pc, will MaxMSP be able to recognize it?
2 – If I will build my own sensors (that receive or send an electric voltage between 0 and 5V), is it possible to link them to Teleo?
3 – I’m not able to understand the exactly function of these three sensors included in the Teleo Starter Kit: a push button assembly, a photocell sensor assembly and a lamp assembly.
Are they analog or digital?
What the difference between "photocell" and "lamp"? (My english is not good enought :-)
4 – Does exist others solutions (under 400$ ) near to this one?
5 – Should I buy it? :-)
I’m a C programmer, so I would like to use it for my projects… and with Max of course!
> 1 – Teleo Starter Kit (the 189$ one :-) should consist in a "Teleo
> Introductory Module", that is an hardware interface where it’s possible to
> link analog and digital sensors from 0 to 5 V. It also linkable to pc via USB.
> This Starter kit includes also three sensors.
> Should this inizial packet be enought to begin?
> I mean, if I link sensors to Teleo and Teleo to pc, will MaxMSP be able to
> recognize it?
This should work fine. Making Things integrates very well via the Max
objects they supply on their site. The Starter Kit is a great place to get
> 2 – If I will build my own sensors (that receive or send an electric voltage
> between 0 and 5V), is it possible to link them to Teleo?
Sure. They have screw-in connectors that you would connect to (for the
> 3 – I’m not able to understand the exactly function of these three sensors
> included in the Teleo Starter Kit: a push button assembly, a photocell sensor
> assembly and a lamp assembly.
> Are they analog or digital?
> What the difference between "photocell" and "lamp"? (My english is not good
> enought :-)
I believe they are all analog (I’d have to look, but I’m pretty sure). The
lamp is a light that you can turn on with your program, the photocell looks
for light and generates a control signal.
> 4 – Does exist others solutions (under 400$ ) near to this one?
I don’t have a good answer to this…
> 5 – Should I buy it? :-)
I think so. I’m a big fan.
try these links:
Thank you very much!
So, Teleo is really interesting…
I’m reading also about Phidgets sensors… but they doesn’t speak about MaxMsp. That’s not good :-)
Here for example: http://www.phidgets.com/index.php?module=pncommerce&func =itemview&KID=113823005222.214.171.124&IID=63
I can’t find a MaxMSP software support (I will have to build in java or C my own max object, that’s not the ideal solution).
> I’m reading also about Phidgets sensors… but they doesn’t speak about MaxMsp. That’s not good :-)
You missed this page, which has Windows and Mac maxmsp support:
I too have had good experiences with the Phidgets!
Yes, I am still thinking which of the two I should choice, I only
think that the Teleo Starter Kit is expensive. Especially if you add
the 70$ shipping costs, that like more then 50% of the total sum.
Quote: Ben Nevile wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 20:20
> You missed this page, which has Windows and Mac maxmsp support
I’m reading about Phidgets InterfaceKit 8/8/8, that have
8 Analog Inputs
8 Digital Inputs
8 Digital Outputs
and a 2 Port USB Hub
They sell it at 85$, it’s pretty cheap. But without any sensors included…So, if I buy three sensors (like Teleo Starter Kit) the price is not so different.
Weyert let me know your choise! :)
> I’m reading about Phidgets InterfaceKit 8/8/8, that have
> 8 Analog Inputs
> 8 Digital Inputs
> 8 Digital Outputs
> and a 2 Port USB Hub
Yes, it looks nice! It’s also cheaper in shipping costs, only the
support for ActionScript/Flash is not as good as of Teleo. One of the
issues I am planning to e-mail the UK reseller anyday now. To obtain
some more information.
> They sell it at 85$, it’s pretty cheap. But without any sensors included…So, if I buy three sensors (like Teleo Starter Kit) the price is not so different.
> Weyert let me know your choise! :)
If you are researching various sensor devices that can talk to Max, then you might consider a few different options:
* Teleo (you already know about this)
* Eobody (Cycling ’74)
* Icube (Infusion Systems)
* Kroonde (Cycling ’74)
* Toaster (La Kitchen)
* Teabox (Electrotap)
* Miditron (Cycling ’74)
So there are lots of options. The Teabox is something that I co-developed for several reasons, including a giant distrust of Apple’s USB implementation after getting burned a few times with some of my installations.
I’m visiting the links you’ve posted.
I see that:
– Infusion Systems Icube costs 299$ and sends just midi signal (that is 128 values, when Teleo captures 1024 values.Is it right?)
– Cycling74 Kroonde, that is wireless (amazing!) costs 1200$ ,like Kitchen Toaster :( Maybe tomorrow…
-MidiTron it’s just a MIDI Analog/Digital I/O Interface, not so different from my Roland PM-16 :-)
-Electrotap Teabox is really interesting. It costs just $395 (plus 100$ for the starter kit) and it has a really low latency.
I’m thinking about how it communicates with the PC: I’m reading that it sends audio throught an S/PDIF cable, so I need an audio card with a S/PDIF input, is it right?
I have an M-Audio Audiophile Firewire so I would have no problem.
It’s not cheaper as Teleo, but it’s really really nice.
And it has 4095 different values for every signal!
But I can’t understand the meant of the four jack/XLR connections… I mean, the input (4 digital and 2 analog) are on the rear pannel… Maybe the four XLR/Jack connections are for send signal to sensors?
Hi again… Yes you need a S/PDIF cable, but one comes with the box (optical by default, but you can request a coaxial cable instead).
There are 8 continuous analog inputs. All 8 are available via I-Cube-style connectors, while 4 of them are available via 1/4" or XLR. The back panel has RJ11 (telephone) jacks which bundle 4 sensors onto a single cable. The analog inputs can be accessed there too, as well as 16 additional digital inputs.
Hope that makes sense!
On Jan 26, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Bruno Zamborlin wrote:
> I’m visiting the links you’ve posted.
> I see that:
> – Infusion Systems Icube costs 299$ and sends just midi signal
> (that is 128 values, when Teleo captures 1024 values.Is it right?)
I believe they also have a wireless version that sends midi data.
With some of the Midi transport sensor systems you can bump up the
resolution to 14bit (pitch bend) data although you’ll add some
latency to the system. (be aware that it is difficult to find
sensors that can give 14 bit resolution.) I don’t know if the iCube
can do this but you could look into it. (I believe the MidiTron works
> – Cycling74 Kroonde, that is wireless (amazing!) costs 1200$ ,like
> Kitchen Toaster :( Maybe tomorrow…
> -MidiTron it’s just a MIDI Analog/Digital I/O Interface, not so
> different from my Roland PM-16 :-)
It’s similar to Teleo in that you can send the data in and out, but
the Teleo has modules already built for controlling servos, etc,
whereas you may need to do a little more work to get the MidiTron
doing everything you want – of course it may cost less that way.
> -Electrotap Teabox is really interesting. It costs just $395 (plus
> 100$ for the starter kit) and it has a really low latency.
> I’m thinking about how it communicates with the PC: I’m reading
> that it sends audio throught an S/PDIF cable, so I need an audio
> card with a S/PDIF input, is it right?
> I have an M-Audio Audiophile Firewire so I would have no problem.
Yes to the above. Or a computer with a s/pdif input (G5, intelMac, etc)
> It’s not cheaper as Teleo, but it’s really really nice.
> And it has 4095 different values for every signal!
> But I can’t understand the meant of the four jack/XLR
> connections… I mean, the input (4 digital and 2 analog) are on
> the rear pannel… Maybe the four XLR/Jack connections are for send
> signal to sensors?
The Teabox cannot send any data out. (Some day we’ll get to that, but
not yet.) So, if you need to send data out, this may not work for
you, or you’ll have to find another way.
Basically there are 24 total inputs 8 are 12 bit, the other 16 are
toggles (e.g. 1 bit) All are sampled around 4kHz. You can access
the 8 -12bit sensors 3 or 4 ways (3 pin header, 2 banks of 4 RJ-11
telephone jacks, and the first four can be connected via the front
XLR-1/4" combo jacks.) The other 16 toggles are connected to via 4
RJ-11 telephone jacks in the back.
A quick note – if you need another continuous input, you can send a
variable frequency oscillating signal into the digital inputs in the
back and count the number of times it switches. This gives a low res
sensor for each of the 16 inputs on the back. We’ve built a
"digitizer" that is essentially a 555 timer to do the task.
There is also the muio system, available in the UK for
>> I’m visiting the links you’ve posted.
>> I see that:
>> – Infusion Systems Icube costs 299$ and sends just midi signal
>> (that is 128 values, when Teleo captures 1024 values.Is it right?)
> I believe they also have a wireless version that sends midi data.
Yes, the WiMinidig is wireless, really small and now even at half the
>> – Cycling74 Kroonde, that is wireless (amazing!) costs 1200
>> $ ,like Kitchen Toaster :( Maybe tomorrow…
We have a Kroonde which works nicely, but today I think IRCAM’s
WiseBox is a better buy (using standard wifi):
>> -Electrotap Teabox is really interesting. It costs just $395 (plus
>> 100$ for the starter kit) and it has a really low latency.
>> I’m thinking about how it communicates with the PC: I’m reading
>> that it sends audio throught an S/PDIF cable, so I need an audio
>> card with a S/PDIF input, is it right?
If you need speed, Teabox is definitely the best buy! But if you are
more into building several smaller devices, it is too big and
expensive, and then you could go with any of the cheaper/smaller
solutions. I use the Teabox in our motion lab, and then I use
Phidgets when I build smaller devices.
Or if you want it really cheap, and like to solder, you can hack a
gamepad and make some sensors yourself. Here’s the story about how we
build a "10 dollar" instrument last year:
Got a couple of 404’s here; first from this link, and
also for arj.tools, (which are also notable by their
omission from the Max Objects database),
> you can hack a
> gamepad and make some sensors yourself. Here’s the
> story about how we
> build a "10 dollar" instrument last year:
The link gets messup up because it is on seperate lines… remove the ‘%20’ section when you cut-and-paste it into your browser.
The download section for the gamepad to OSC/MIDI (which is great – thanks Alexander!) is http://www.hf.uio.no/imv/forskning/forskningsprosjekter/musi calgestures/resources/multicontrol/index.html
Another link: http://arj.no/max/arj-tools/index.php
Love the ‘CheapStick’ ; at last a use for all that
conductive plastic I’ve been hoarding ;-)
…not to forget
small, paris-based company with reliable and cheap solutions. french-
only-website w schematics and pd-patches
(disclaimer: the owners are close friends of mine – regardless/
despite/because of their products)
hans w. koch
im krahnenhof 11
… and last but not least, they are absolutely kind and reliable. And
really cheap. One of my favorite choice for any kind of custom hardware.
I’m getting very interested in the Ardinuo boards – is anybody using them?
I would value hearing feedback on any of the other boards. I’ve been using the Teleo system, and I can only recommend it – the guys at makingthings run a great list. The only problem is expense, as shipping things to the EU/UK is a costly business.
I am actually going to be buckling down with an arduino board over the
It’s a solid enough platform that we are seriously considering using
these instead of Microchip’s PICs next year at NYU.
Thank you all.That’s my conclusion:
Teabox, Eobody and Interface-Z can’t send data to sensors, they just receive. So I discarded them.
Kroonde, Icube and Toaster and too expensive.
In my budget range (approximately not more than 600$) I am uncertain between Miditron (149$, it has 20 sockets at all, that you can decide to use ad inputs or outputs, analogs or digitals, but however it works just with MIDI) and Teleo, that has "just" 10 sockets but it works faster that MIDI and is pretty cheap (189$ + shipping cost).
Has been invented some other sensor during these days? :-)
I may have misunderstood you here, but NONE of the sensors so far
mentioned respond to the computer, whatever interface, they only input
from the user to the system.
You can of course change how the computer interprets data from the
>Kroonde, Icube and Toaster and too expensive.
yeah, & as previously mentioned by someone else about the I-Cube
– those connectors…ouch!
I’m not so sure about the Teleo’s speed advantage, although my
information is second-hand. I had a customer who decided to switch to
my gluion interface because the Teleo wasn’t responsive enough for his
project where he needed to control a lot of outputs. I think the reason
was that while the Teleo has a fast USB link, it’s "network" connection
(I2C ?) towards additional modules is a bit slow. Might not apply to
your project if you just stick with the starter kit…
But if you only have a few sensors/actuators anyway, MIDI should be
I haven’t mentioned the gluion yet as it’s sorta outside the price
range you specified (starting at 455 Euro), but if you wanna have a
look anyway: glui.de/prod/gluion.html
in short: 16 analog + 68 digital, OSC-based, bi-directional, digital
Did u check out the Labjack products?
These days I’m looking into more or less the same needs as you have in your
project and I thought about the U-series they have… they also have some
nice sensors/adds-on/ect you can buy and the prices are realy friendly. They
have a cool and nice support as well…. it sounds like i’m working there
but realy not :)
1 – Is Miditron too slow for real time application? I mean, in Teabox website ( http://www.electrotap.com/teabox/ ) they talk about 23ms latency in any MIDI interface… that is absolutely too much. Is it true for you?
What are the problems in workin with MIDI data?
I sent an email to Eroktronix and they talk about just 1 ms of latency for any MIDI message (so, if I have 10 sensors connected and only one changes, it will take 1 ms, but if they all change, it will take 10 ms (the time to send data for 10 sensors via MIDI).
I’m thinking that, to work in real time, I will need that sensors interface latency + sound card latency < 10-15ms.
My sound card have about 7 ms of latency… so I’m not sure if it’s possible to work with midi…
2 – In Teleo website they don’t talk about latency.
Does anybody know how many milliseconds it is?
Quote: Ido G. wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 01:29
> Did u check out the Labjack products?
Thank you very much, that’s almost perfect! But I can’t find anything about MaxMSP…
Can LabJack U12 communicate with Max?
> I sent an email to Eroktronix and they talk about just 1 ms of latency
> for any MIDI message (so, if I have 10 sensors connected and only one
> changes, it will take 1 ms, but if they all change, it will take 10 ms
> (the time to send data for 10 sensors via MIDI).
My experience is that you should usually take the worst case scenario.
Especially because sensors are rarely completely stable, e.g. on a data
glove with bend sensors the values will always fluctuate a bit even if
you’re not performing a meaningful gesture. Exception might be
fader-box type of controllers.
Your question also raises another issue, that of latency jitter.
There’s studies that say it can be more irritating than a high, but
> I’m thinking that, to work in real time, I will need that sensors
> interface latency + sound card latency < 10-15ms.
> My sound card have about 7 ms of latency… so I’m not sure if it’s
> possible to work with midi…
sorry for the cliche answer but it really depends on your controller
design, i.e. how many sensors and what type.
> 2 – In Teleo website they don’t talk about latency.
> Does anybody know how many milliseconds it is?
The numbers for calculating latency on the Teabox page make a few assumptions.
First, with MIDI you usually will be sending 3-byte MIDI Messages (for noteon, cc, etc) for each sensor. Remember that bytes for MIDI are 10 bits in length. So if you have 24 sensors * 3 bytes each it is a total of 72 bytes or 720 bits of data through which you must cycle to get all of the values.
MIDI uses a transmission rate of 31250 bits per second, thus 720/31250 = 23.04ms. However, this is a best case theoretical scenario – I’ve never seen MIDI perform nearly this well.
As was mentioned, a variation (jitter) in latency makes things far worse. If there is one sensor and it works smoothly but starts getting funky when 9 other sensors are sending and then works smoothly again, it generally will not be happy times.
Looks like you’ve sparked a lot of good conversation – hopefully you are making some good progress!
as already posted here right after your q… u have this –
only "problem" it doesn’t support us pc users…. and no porting in the near
future, too bad.
—– Original Message —–
From: "Bruno Zamborlin"
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 9:18 PM
Subject: [maxmsp] Re: Re: About Teleo
> Quote: Ido G. wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 01:29
> > Did u check out the Labjack products?
> > http://www.labjack.com/index.html
> Thank you very much, that’s almost perfect! But I can’t find anything
> Can LabJack U12 communicate with Max?
I am really happy that there are solutions like Teabox and Gluion
that provide fast and relatively inexpensive analog input (and
output) to the computer.
I just thought that it is worth mentioning that many people
(including myself) succesfuly performed in real time with MIDI based
sensor solutions, like the old I-cube ot the new MIDITron.
I used Icube, made stuff from Ucapps.de, and used some analog to
serial converters, like EZIO. While latency is there, I never saw it
as a problem that would stop me from playing music with it. Many
acoustic instruments have slow attack and musicians have to play
"before" the sound actually occurs. It takes some time to learn to
play with it, and you certainly can’t use it to play drums in a band,
but for many many things it works really good.
So, while new fast solutions are great, MIDI interfaces like Eric’s
MIDITron are really cheap, work great, and in many cases provide an
excellent solution for interactive works.
just my 2c :)
P.S. While I’m quite happy with mine (next year it will be 10 years
since i bought it) i wouldn’t recommend anyone to buy I-Cube these
days. It is just too expensive.
Quote: Ido G. wrote on Thu, 02 February 2006 01:06
> as already posted here right after your q… u have this –
> only "problem" it doesn’t support us pc users…. and no porting in the near
> future, too bad.
I see. And at the moment I am a PC user.
By the way, is it possible to communicate with UE9 or U12 using some TCP objects of Max?
Netsend and netreceive for example…I guess.
I sent an email to Labjack and they told me they are not familiar with Max, but "Any program/language capable of sending/receiving TCP data, can talk to the UE9 by sending low-level commands over the Ethernet interface.".
> Did u check out the Labjack products?
I thought the Labjack looked really nice from the pictures on the web
site, but was surprised by how big it is (at least compared to other
solutions). I also found the max externals to be rather difficult to
work with. I much prefer the Phidgets.
ok…. so they gave u an answer…
also, some idea about teleo vs U12 – the U12 has more inputs and outputs,
and the analog inputs are better on the U12. The Teleo appears to be
targeted towards motor control and robotics, as it has 2 high power PWM
outputs that the U12 does not have.
so u might try to investigate deeper according to ur needs.
So it seems there are quite a lot of interfaces you can choose! To make things even more ‘difficult’ please have a look at our kit called BlueSense. As a plus BlueSense supports wireless modules which can be helpfull on mobile robots.
I ‘upgraded’ a record player with some servo motor via BlueSense which you can examine at:
Nobody will see this after all of those answers, but here’s a bit of information:
The cheapest, most flexible interface I have found is the CRUMB board, which comes in a wireless version. I think the price for the basic board is around 30 EUR. You can connect anything to it, and get anything out of it, and there are USB as well as serial connections.
At the weekly electronic-music performance workshops I’ve been hosting at our theater for the past three years, we’ve tried as many approaches as we could get our hands on, with an emphasis on quick, inexpensive solutions. Sure, the cheapest sensor-interface is a joystick with potentiometers soldered onto it. The most interesting sensors, however, are digital, and everyone wants to be wireless. For this reason, CRUMB is the way to go. It’s use requires some knowledge and work, it is not a plug-and-play device. Because of this, though, it can allow you to do things you cannot do because some engineer thinks you shouldn’t want to.
I should reall write an article about what we tried and what happened…
I think he might have been referring to these:
Link to hardware manual:
AVR Freaks page:
A while back I put up a table with info about a number of different
sensor interface solutions at the SensorWiki:
Feel free to add information about devices that are not included.
>It is worth looking at the Arduino project as
>well. No wireless solution yet AFAIK, but cheap,
>USB/serial and works great (at least for what I
so mutch possibility…
there also? but not plug and play
Arduino is more plug and play,with proce66ing, pd?
very mutch doc on line and it is getting the
comon choise from computer art skool/univ., now
in France, so, developing aroud will grow very
miditron also is "plug and play" with max, and have good tutorial , need midi,
more professional choise from theater ligthing,
commom is DMX protocol interface type…more
expensive, hardware type "theater black metal
design" not for amateur (for security, and stong
ampere / watt burning.?)
I wonder Wath is a good choise for drive several
big stepper motor (1Amper eatch) like 4 or 5 or
6 nema for motion control…like robot in the
factory, or 16mm/35mm camera head?
bilt microship is long way, professional solution
is expensive, amateur solution is not inof strong
and secure… and so mutch card for stepper
motor, so much info on astronomic photo-club, or
robotic drill-sculpture…I lost way.
it must exist ready-made (usb) camera-head with
hpan, vpan, tilt can drive from max, and can
carry until 1kg stuff(camera, laser, ligth,
RCX lego was fun in 1999 on window 98…
I’ ve made this sensor interface
(under "sensor interface")
that is plug and play.
It receives for analog and 4 switch and transmits 150 meters along.
It will be cheap less than 150 euros
and the only cable u’ll have will be sensors cables.
Im building now a new one
that is a lot more little than this one
and i’ll finishing maybe on end of july.
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