### Create a whitenoise generator with only Max objects (no Gen or externals)

Anyone knows how to wrap around it, i’m having some trouble?

It’s probably unnecessarily cumbersome and there are thousand better ways to do it but it’s more for purposes of study than anything else.

Thanks a bunch

What about the noise~ object?

"What about the noise~ object?"

^haha, i don’t think that’s what he meant, but it’s funny because it’s true!

can’t give any awesomely advanced answers here as i’ve never felt like studying noise-generation(only noise-shaping :D)…

but one place i’d start is looking at code from musicdsp.org(or anywhere else you can search for ‘noise’ code), and figure out the max patch from the code.

for example, i went there(click on the ‘Archive’ tab to get to the search), searched ‘noise’, this page came up as one of the results:

http://musicdsp.org/showone.php?id=217

and here’s a quick max patch version of it, albeit perhaps not as exact/efficient as i could have been in gen~ or using code, particularly to create the initial 19.19191919191919… :p

**all**of the following text. Then, in Max, select

*New From Clipboard*.

----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 1015.3ocyY11aaaCDG+01eJXE1q17Chj5wfNLrOGqCCzRz1LwhTfhpMsE0e1 GIkjiiaRijrkTP.T.uPYd2Od2w+l46ym4rQ7HsvAbG3e.yl884ylYMYLLqd7 LmLxiIGHE1o4jHxxnbkyhp+lh9nxZ+iKSEkaNPWlbfk7.PsmBNHHoYzhBfPB xHOPAEkRJfo.JIa2Npr.rgtUnMUnHREiuCPJSYBvc4Me5GXbZhnjaWB+Zi7x LQo5.UYcH2Zq4DUxd8mw+IoIpp.BCCV4u..QqbW.h8LOC0OA+a8qrUvUEruQ My1NoZyxcarexmrvRsgnXy8KQNm8xbRl8kc9aIibv4I+iwabOnw1OlO27XwU hX8j.1vD7YM7XBNXyWARx8Dvm3aHEzTf1ThHkB1JEYf8TI8tOw2qT42sdcVY AKIsHekPtacwdwWDb5p784+EK8OQvvWj33tRbnExnfPC2QnXyHuvqD433Ij4 ebIWvJn.c7mWpb5JPPQPCCfw1bvnHKdbuVfDMB.gS+hds9Id7g0GAvUMlqff 5q4zpv0ofsiqchSg2yAE7Wj4fCsropXE2ZPcNV75HVP2NrjKdfdDXSUjcNIo I18bsIIt8I1wcL1wu+SIBvFPD32+DBzzkPni5i5p2ghJPaaEuf9PE3z08fwS oOdYcxslMUUSQn9vF2oKi4Cq+UUQa0hoT8ouZrUCDtpJBYOWtaLAEOBLwHSj ri9SPwE7avWkI8GG91BGrUsBLpa3HZBOkgRe3MqdtxLkvfdeHDxa5NDZS41s TYCbL5l7eCBsP+RD9tWiTn2TkKxupSLrOnBOBMgKRD4zicWyJN9LoXPr6oec J.OORPCcVuRVxSNN.RNg13DhrwomWe1FcGgsQ52RIIG68W8v0FXd9MOeoMQH dn2D+CsFw3gSNTzYAYG2Cmv94KMRD8u8PotBtgJ8QIT3TRkAKMwKp2xfBlNf 76CFPhC5MOvSGONcuh5NJvXyOCfDw5S+P8o34Z9FV1kwdMbWbsrVW0X+4.qP TJSZB25DUvSNaJsPw3DESvOaNgOaN6YooT94GmjwRyELtp1EBsIHvPeadhtH pYzSKCqfr4.0h.2Wbm9V59Qug6e67FbK7FiHfdPScxqMMK5znAflW3aub.XP Nr89eiKWoXJJnpy54Wr9Mz+iayFv3kObwR8J9i23keBag+fcGO+oM4al6kaj 7m1fmKxwFT7fZCdd+4Nv2MMaCdmUZg6Vuypd+3J0n9AqBesQg1KwzLX.5p1l lX3QrIlWaI833OgsooQe6gUouijmW++v05KFOQK88dgzLLXgcHiWMzpU0QR+ LqY9gVKDoV5pRqasTVIv7w.Om4l04Gy+eKgjUkA -----------end_max5_patcher-----------

one of the quickest ways i’ve found to learn both dsp and max/msp at the same time(not that i’ve learnt all that much of either ;p).

hope it helps.

EDIT: OH WAIT! you said ‘only max objects’ meaning no signal objects either, i’m an idiot :p

but then hopefully everyone here already knows that! >:D

still… you get the idea… go there, do that, this time only using max(you could still use peek~ for any possible recursion at non-signal rate), easypeasy, teeee heeee! >;D

Raja’s example is noisy, but it’s not white noise. At all.

Your standard white noise is simply a bog-standard random number generator (RNG) producing values at the sampling rate.

If the goal is to get something to a DAC, there are going to have to be some MSP objects involved somewhere down the road (so I don’t read the challenge as "no MSP objects allowed", rather as MSP objects being part of Max). So noise~ is the obvious candidate.

Otherwise, you can implement a simple RNG as `x[n+1] = a * x[n] + b mod c`

with arbitrary values for a, b, and c (although the values should be fairly large and, ideally, mutually prime). That is typically used for integer values in a range like 0 <= x < 2^32; a little scaling will give you floating-point samples in the range 1 <= x < 1. (Getting an inclusive range at both ends is just a tad tricky and, frankly, not worth the effort–you won’t hear the difference.)

While Peter’s answer is true (is always :) ), if you want white noise in the Max domain, you just need to bang a random object at scheduler rate.

Well, what you get is not white noise at audio sample rate, but at max’s sample rate(scheduler rate). It’s the best max can do.

Otherwise, to make noise you can actually hear: peters answer.

Hey. I am looking for the same in pink. That seems a bit more complicated. I know the deviation of the random values must look like a bell curve or one half of it. Can this be done with some math behind a random object.

I think not. I found algorithm examples to generate "pink numbers" in C.

But they use multiple rng to do it. I not fully understand the code example yet. O.

"Raja’s example is noisy, but it’s not white noise. At all."

haha, sorry, maybe i should’ve clarified, but i thought this was obvious before i posted… and was merely trying to be helpful in showing where to go in order to try your own research :)

#OhTheSweetStingOfMaleEgoDominatedElectronicMusicCommunities

also, since they wrote, "but it’s more for purposes of study than anything else"

it actually sounds like the goal would not necessarily be to get audio to the dac.

so this:

x[n+1] = a * x[n] + b mod c

is the answer we ALL needed! :D Thanks!

(when i look through the source for noise~… ooops… i mean… dream of it in my head… ya that’s it… i don’t still have the source code to max5, don’t even think it!… but ya, it looks similar :D

#CarefullyDancingJustWithinTheLimitsOfNDAs)

@olsen

this: http://www.firstpr.com.au/dsp/pink-noise/

seems o imply we can filter white noise tyo get something fairly pink. I’d take the first example right away, seems most straight forward. (although I guess the others might be more accurate)

cheers!

Sorry for any misunderstanding, Raja. But if I misunderstood, others may have, as well.

Regarding the formula I gave: it’s a standard formula in the literature (see, for instance, Knuth *Art of Computer Programming* vol. III). I don’t have access to source code for Max, either, but DDZ wrote the the list many years ago that he simply took the RNG from *Numerical Recipes in C*, which is yet another implementation of the algorithm given by Knuth.

As to pink noise: yes, the samples in pink noise have a Gaussian distribution, but that’s not what makes it pink. What makes pink noise "pink" is the correlation between samples.

This is easy to confirm if you have Litter Pro: lp.gsss~ is a plain, uncorrelated Gaussian generator, mainly used for dithering. It actually sounds the same as white noise at audio levels (to the extent that I doubt anyone could reliably tell the difference in A/B tests). The objects lp.sss~ and lp.zzz~ produce pink noise (using two different algorithms, of which lp.zzz~ is generally considered "superior"… James McCartney developed the algorithm used here, so of course it’s good!).

You can produce pink noise by filtering white noise, but that’s a relatively expensive operation, and it’s only an approximation of "real" pink noise. Tim Place wrote an external using this approach, and it uses a third- or fifth-order filter (sorry, forget which). At the time I wrote lp.zzz~ I compared it to Tim’s implementation, and the Litter implementation used only about 1/8 of the CPU as the filter approach.

OTOH, the filter approach is pretty easy to write in Max/MSP. Direct generation of correlated samples not so easy (although it might be possible to do something clever by adding a series of square waves at octave intervals, going right up to Nyquist, with the amplitudes set by a RNG).

- This reply was modified 2 years by Peter Castine. Reason: Clarified certain details

@peter thanks for clarifying. So it’s not only the distribution.

@woyteg i know nearly nothing about dsp calculations. if i now try to translate this filter example to max

b0 = 0.99765 * b0 + white * 0.0990460;

b1 = 0.96300 * b1 + white * 0.2965164;

b2 = 0.57000 * b2 + white * 1.0526913;

tmp = b0 + b1 + b2 + white * 0.1848;

it seem not to work the way i understand it in max:

-- Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. --Copyallof the following text. Then, in Max, selectNew From Clipboard.----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 1768.3oc6as0aaaCE9YWf9efPnOr1lXPRQcaE6gs+FcEAxVzNpSVxPhNIaE6 +93Ec2RxL0WDCvRATpnNT5ie7vuygWxOd+6VXsJ6EZgE3WAeErXwO3krPVln jEUErvZW3KqSBKjFZsiVTDtkZcW4CYzWXxG.WVWV5gcwoITlrF3pR2jkxJh+ GpnPDbIrk0YGXUliZadZ3No4V+ddbXB3OxRhp+Hp5v968TUCvxB7spmEGIqU 1pueOFGTWk8gr0OFmt8gb5ZlpVtAdKwN2APDOONj.13kh6bWBAeSVq+88uS7 a9utSaNZSRFuQMLcfZ.SNu0wn4OPSCWkHaE0bx9bZAMkExhyRagVGWGI7vXj .rvxKMMb83X7OMGyaYgLq6.VqBS2NFg6MEgiI1K8DsAm.I7c8EWQ9mEgmRel +oO1mjSi6ooQfBJ6T8FCS3XhhvQdmEge4cpwSwwnZm5.rji8thbL8k84bNIv 0F7IvG1f.eleEy++b1vA6FfLTYAa8XvR+SW3EfBuZ5B0toBgKiUWfnGiaK8V cflrt.AgJ0ErMJcAzjA6r8CVZ.xB3.WGjqgJK.0h.eSnJT6jhfFrp.RKB+FH JH8Xa7TEWs4W+kOrgHcaQ9D+ONb2DYtG16qWJWtxvCXDVc+bKtNWr0jIn53i KGiStYhjAdtNGm8TP.jXnxjsjumhBsUxjpjmuRbHCrBr4h3n8yKzI02tqRva DJyYJJifkdaHaneqogN2AVLg.DHrVtZP2qd.Bgml7eWDuMxY6sM3uGgDmNsF rqjDsIRmPmfkWwnCf7vznrcOT12OqAHlZ7JLPmwqXOoGmucieWmZQyKIoJVh ix3D5Sz7BdxZsQ+Bqv86aU9h1URPteOS9tbuqor3TUYnlxxoOEW8J7ZJNLm2 BXb3eHWQOu3RrJepnesBCsbJjMIO0LEHxVIwuc5ibWfsIYq+KZTaMCNKyi9G m1NmztOOhtI7PB6gNctnkCavlv0zwqd2NaqZa1lGGkkJ.R25JJu5S9UkGk7Z q1jzjzv8CU8Bdy4PwpvbAEWpUhqeJKKKo6yZ5Z4CVBSi2ExnrXEjwvl2a7t8 4worteLkb7iEqyyRR591TO5ogdTDu6eM843H1ixWWGZkWg38UcHVMzUT7VZA qWgrvsE8JpyxE2w8rsbP2GLorPWogOAtmiWwOnNFLXlOSoOLgFgN5DZoUbrd AtS8GZINfAxzuw9B8UWbuPUKZTZqFUdUnYV6PXiK99JIX7YSvCGF6XdFcJdN nb5NP3foRcq34s7Q6.7E2S97IZAIOEACOEAWlkUfLOA6fYxO9y.STlPpiOF2 xoLM4VOYFYyluaDccbD8sG85oI85HWubxbIAKmd+az.cn.G8H4x3bN+u9f9N v99mLIBDokG7rIPnlDmHFq3m2d7rqt7rxI1+Z5DKYqwoPcoogSnZh37dZlHk ZxeXmpqcekqy1silVN6gKN2nZTZlsZWxANZC+jCx7HxAWPYP3yog2ZhkIwoi N4IIDDFLBkTjcHecU2ZsCLnGf3SviEmVOi6u1RSouoOFGE0a1spIBVHlYoZB 852W95guHPslvWjxjwA+.cguLaZCC9xoPAP5w9dlG6OjC8TrOxvXen999NFn yCTWmG4RhXj99ZJb5Zfv2SeeejAJb5nO78MP1GOWvuJsyl0p2pH7IZzC7OFO skGBYr73UGXpTL5reCm+xoqwJ1+pVZ4gQxTHXzu71jrUgIka0RcsGZUrq4ue 5szhSuLdCb5srZjsl5DIm2M+TWs14Ih7z8fUImCOqMqazC088vk9Pu1mgZi5 XH.m7HERbcZum5kmBgy6ncWkz+QLE..VAA+VqSyA+1OCdVrqasNNGvu7moBS QJScsgPgonNlpNfbjRSwRSc7fJSwsLEUdDasUlx1smaq76JeicrUc.l9BnF5 Bku0YGTyfgbI1HVnt8uax2tp61S0c14Suk+PR4wYhn1OEhri0AOPGqxso6bu J6n6q9W0cerpu3jazJimwT7EGBKfciYGq1OfR+f9fuBn0MEkIgF91BMLTeng twPyVenAuwcn9ZAMr2sGZ3.8fF1XgFJvbg1LzghfZoqIN292bnomjqbfLxLg FbFfFrqL+XPCMCCCrMWwChdPydFfFVOnc5Qn6hi1mEmxJyBhOGixbnPpc1H. M78D0801KuuEft3sXjdsX3LzY.M1fLHMCMids9I1AJ2gR2BaexP2V5jTY701 Goerxw5Hvu1Vqi5uKJDQsceNp+jf6eqc4skFKu8Z1ZcM2DHzSdpeKvfhRKg1 bDk19R39dcXMM5PmA0Wnl4Q6LCPSuQnv.ik0Dqi1YLLnbUV5c90knp+4Vu+Y Vefyq9nmUc4Gje4+.Fuw7pB -----------end_max5_patcher-----------

what’s wrong? how is this filter calculated correctly and what is the init value for b0-2?

another problem is the floats in the example are too long for max.

hi, it’s written in a (at least to me) reall strange way..

But here you go with a gen version, ready to be translated to max.

-- Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. --Copyallof the following text. Then, in Max, selectNew From Clipboard.----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 1342.3oc6assbihCD8Y7WgKdb1rtnEHtruseGolZJhQiilAKn.bRlcpY+1Wc AHBaSBf7l.iyKlR269zpOcaP5mqrruK6IRo85+Z8sqsr94JKKYUhJrpKaYuO 9osowkxtYWlS1VUjUtMKm7u12n5Qdb016orceof2nZ1PNnMN2ve.hGtNNhGf 3w5OWOJ1g8TVJoRNwn5JoIxkI6tu8mtMSe1gJd2p9QNQM2115ygpU4j.hJ+0 pUhetYfJDi7HewZVpJxSREvdGg0pdeMiUUR+G4pCB050zZv0Wp0gJHXD5Lzq NWR2whSeVyEBEKdurY6+tfxa67XhtzRJpQhZnfOMzTxCjhRZFSq2V1w44ZUa oMDA98sL4D4eSaUTlpJnspBxCzlw+bGiK3XVEGvNTnD8mB8sUMxsYqZFZCfB NtxcNtJD0WsOxCqgobC7tsYopk+10NahtQ6GnaGSy19chDtcZpjuQlQY4EjR BqJtpVhaaNg703CoUe47aB519Wi2R5cvm0XYYuqfljwDBQmQJptY43v.VtsB qqLxdvhyOyfK45wgx6hKDVf6RIZa13awyxR61TqQm6oDyn6iqHUTkvhbZmT5 97BJqpyBQXw7439xsEYooclJUKOblVR36K1RdjlTcubtzgRd2o4Ml.6VLJgt iTV0stp3ckcqoCWl9FVcJfN0+RTAcoC9DWNgPuP8F6YGQeTCXI0fKxS7.iOl Z3T5APqAMJBDVWH5ma7kYI5i8zpgAs1i7xCkEqeTv.LTjTyu7LnoJ7hS8OcT 8WvFnFkm+qaCb5wF3ursA+ggnePzl.LG6hviA9gPW4vbwtJWgM3WC+Q8f+dW 23OBpweXR3OxX728pF+gv.IzE4NE3udXl.+nkM7+IQZYXjeDL83od3HYNQ9R JH+nIGOEB9HdZKZ5MJBk1QgLLdJDdUym34gEbAPj2nP+lQgMjNAhV1n+8zxp rhebQrAHDdB1.Dxend.8kUuyRmR2YCNX5z4tQAZz4dnoCjvxGHQQ9Xv2.vr9 0PYdrQzGwFaQSuQwN2NJiiMdcmqMJLTEkKXT+S+lQYbrQuOhM1flHT3DrAlG aDvKeJ8HeWCd2gdN5AGMfO2+2.jLxwyfXi.nmng+zSz.fqpXi8ijlGgy4JIB 2YvPG2KSbpqq+BWu.o4AaB+cfgLvGOcnT8soLmfbg+d0XYzRSXG8k6AAYvZ2 nISNtviXySmLw3.MJnzSsgLbxaHOwmXnXkyaCVQYqM3EhiU4H5o9BmSOX7xd +FGCQl7hSvWDPbg+ZS3qnI6Dq+u5dNJtufI6v5cIcXe9jyjRY8cPQjZin8yC fkYGJ11XFa9Pzq6pXIjxJJq8fDcaqpbT+tmljz8b6nNpKkhCNSxvocFsH6OP QVbPSlKxLdnxr.mg4gL6NFYddfyhuDzvjY2Ahy6oI4YTVUYyWLTcvmfZRAe0 WDWTr6p9+u4AMFUclXdFJaiT4lf4AEoxtBh5ZdhdyMOQiQScFulBfqRSCUYo 6tAgqK9VuQzYnpJLMUswmS8vMLTYT6VDTE83l7lRu03.LPb3LjTuaNjAiQlm GwkDm0hgIyAKv3RNyGYdn4r.9Syutgrt181Ez8qaJV6Wi7hdu7qggluILixC BMFYdl3WOz7MAzxKgFX97eQFJ8YfYIlTGO1W2ottTsOsu26kK8Pi5MeBTOz3 GgyGWCXDf7LgAZnYxBvrAlGZvoKE+y5Ou54Zpuphxos6akRcyEOVYpu+hmB7 5BWOJPmnCmJ7mJ3cDtitNfBA4nqA3QWAvSu9e8c0+3qyuV8e.D8WgvA -----------end_max5_patcher-----------

(made it in gen~ so I can more easily verify that it actually produces pink noise)

ah what the heck, below is the max version attached. I wrote the values in a buffer too to look at the buffers spectrum (using the spectrumdraw external from the HIRT) for confirming that it works. cheers!

-- Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. --Copyallof the following text. Then, in Max, selectNew From Clipboard.----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 1156.3oc2ZssbihCD8Y6uBJdb1LtTKgDv717cr0VagskSXFt3BjS7lol7suf D3KY.aIEOxrakTfQHf9b5S2pkfeLel+xx87Zeuu38mdyl8i4ylIapsgYcGOy OOY+prjZY27y400IOx8ePcNAeuP1dQYUdRV5qbOzBDze5MkEh5lFa6BfWf5Z dahX0SoEO92U7UB0SOHBZNsWPrbWTb6VHZAx6u5tlhc4oEYbgzLvcMltV9vK W9sOGf6enk6DM8S7Oa4pasu+gaRq8TjjKOg+WqRSx7Od6UWm79CsM9y4ya27 vGjYp4BOAuVXNmvhZYAFlnXFyoDzclRp21fkpc4qqRd4MqwOKTheDRR.LzXL Pvux.jn6LCrbmPTV3ONFoDlDVfbGF0ucXHBC.wvQg3xjhG8O8F8AASA+klm3 uJvWkj0D16AHDx6yvBOXg49ZLPkdYoVGPwWlGXCvCz6rq9kjm4aZxB91E71c wxTrBeToSmELFLoC.yfQg4lrxjlrLW7GYo0x8iIK5I1k61rgWcfpj4utk4DS x2VKELHykJjtDBwR1KhXbdQB4NKUFIPpxKsXMeuEIJIKnMDRnJDJ7xwNnAHD XZRH01RHzHUV03SF5zrrpmoK0A1naGr28ZpswFz.rD3TIvYjKC7AhMvwWd3j GNtOsPXt5fb6nIUNp2rr3ptrHcohCAikH3nqmI97Qf0kiv2NNZa4241xPAHE AgUUgcYBhL.AEdGigDdaT+YcoHgAR3G2lZ0LgAy9gnMVqDb6nrWy7p2kaqNI .IUHATiS4.imx47RUtGwOIq9dyLZO7usrCIrK94JxoAlCCDMMGb9SMzAMzhv qtBTTk5qFuxL8x0JA9dxJ+gFhjJdMuPjHRKKFfWTy8A0s4.Vt.SptBB9xRqg XR5DlI+Ty7HQTLKFrViAgRZjEatFiMoYFzhXFwbZATIi5C8rfVP+uLzqmWj8 TqPu9qv9POXhKvvwL5wn.i0XefPO7TOzKNjQssPftXOl4C6E+e7PuQYDqigh l3BETbLJfYKuXeDT3DmWfnfHaXEYIzDjLzgZ97LlxkMVkTrtLWtpOVOgUPlY IBLOi6nDiUKwyozh7h8yRKd+aYTBi11OmqpK2Usp+o2+Z87NBk07ZQZgb76S 5T6RwbRmdJc8Zdwoq045z5jkY70iuHCZaOHMrGh6rm1W+y04mX2YOTcrGlyr GPG2E0czCYZImemxXX6Abm2RGyAG5N2Enq8.tycgulbF4N4CSC9IzslCbM0L 1s1y0bW.ys1C4J1SfyLmHcx83tbg.nq83lfcfpq8fcSoO5ZND2POZIebWkO5 4tbWzEnk+hdE4bd55skMSCnq781OYk1ooqlUJAjegVu6Hj5sNGhNbzQi31gN ltnaJk7vciLC5LOEoQaf2GBhOw6iA3Due+QJuOz+oG7ax6i0Ectgs0YRXQSp wUcWdwXM4FCzgmICgyjgvYxPSTgpkpHY61m4U0clmDT94Ieqr5vWGWiwTnNT 9t+8q3Om12eUGRpV8TpfuRrqRsXI6iX9yaeN+b9+BxqRTnB -----------end_max5_patcher-----------

how comes that your example produces output greater than 1. and smaller then -1. ?

Good question, I have not the faintest idea. Didn’t think about the filter itself, just implemented it…

seems a division by 40 is close to normalization

40? for me a division by 8 seem to be closest to what i get when i record pink~ into the buffer..

Ah, I don’t know, I tried it with the gen version. Might be different..

thanks anyway. it seems to be close to the solution. i wonder what exact last scaling step is missing.

yes, that’d be really useful I guess..

What about recording the impulse respons of the filter? That migh get you there I guess(?)

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