joecanti@yahoo.co.uk

I've nearly finished a big FM poly synth and i want to

add a distortion and saturation effect to it.Any ideas

I'm not looking for a lo fi element, simply something

to saturate the signal and then to do distortion eg

tube/transistor with drive and damping controls.

I want to try to get some analogue warmth in there...

I've nearly finished a big FM poly synth and i want to
add a distortion and saturation effect to it.Any ideas
on where to start?

I'm not looking for a lo fi element, simply something
to saturate the signal and then to do distortion eg
tube/transistor with drive and damping controls.

distortionsaturation-effect

Have you had a look at the waveshaping tutorial

in the MSP tutorials? Since you're doing FM, I'll

assume that you may be working with just cycle~

objects, so there might be some effort involved

going to wavetable voodoo, but it might be worth

Have you had a look at the waveshaping tutorial
in the MSP tutorials? Since you're doing FM, I'll
assume that you may be working with just cycle~
objects, so there might be some effort involved
going to wavetable voodoo, but it might be worth
it. 

Thanks for the reply...I'll have a look at the waveshaping tutorial.Some degree of wave shaping is possible with messing around with the overdrive~ object, and i have now created a nice saturation effect.But i'll still try for some distortion with that tutorial.

The synth has got the 4 main wave shapes driving 6 operators - i just want to add something extra to the sound - to get away from that cold digital FM sound - rather like the NI FM7 has done.

Maybe I'll try to make a Tape warmth patch, as emulated analogue distortion is a tricky one...

Hi,
Thanks for the reply...I'll have a look at the waveshaping tutorial.Some degree of wave shaping is possible with messing around with the overdrive~ object, and i have now created a nice saturation effect.But i'll still try for some distortion with that tutorial.

Creating analogue-esqe distortion is not easy in a digital system. Last time I did this, I started by adding a DC offset to the signal, then amplifying it and running it through tanh~. This got me some nice, warm, asymetrical distortion.

When that wasn't good enough, I added filters, delays, etc.

Creating analogue-esqe distortion is not easy in a digital system.  Last time I did this, I started by adding a DC offset to the signal, then amplifying it and running it through tanh~.  This got me some nice, warm, asymetrical distortion.

I am very interesting topic in this topic as well.

I am always looking for ways of making my compositions 

sound better. I have always been envious of Reaktor

sounds because they add processing to make it sound extra 

The waveshaper example is a good one, it uses lookup~

to store a waveshaping function that modifies 

the incoming signal. I think the Charles Dodge book

gives some good examples of other waveshaping functions

you can use. Is this the technique that is commonly used

How about saturation? How is this commonly done?

Are there ways you can do these effects spectrally?

I am very interesting topic in this topic as well.
I am always looking for ways of making my compositions 
sound better. I have always been envious of Reaktor
sounds because they add processing to make it sound extra 
sweet.

The waveshaper example is a good one, it uses lookup~
to store a waveshaping function that modifies 
the incoming signal. I think the Charles Dodge book
gives some good examples of other waveshaping functions
you can use. Is this the technique that is commonly used
for distortion?

please tell us if you find something nice, this is an area where msp is 

i quite like reaktor's, but that's about the only thing i like about 

please tell us if you find something nice, this is an area where msp is 
lacking a bit.
i quite like reaktor's, but that's about the only thing i like about 
it...


Firstly saturation...I used the overdrive~ similar to the help file example and it sounds quite like the kontakt 2 saturation. Its simple but can add some warmth and punch to the sound. Distortion would be great but yeah its hard.Thanks for that Mz - do you think you could expand a little on that - i dont know how to add a DC offset to the signal - then do you use a *~ to amplify or something with a transfer function like overdrive~?

I've looked all over the net for distortion programming but theres not much around.There is a computer music tutorial on programming a simple distortion in C++ but i'm not good on C++:

http://www.computermusic.co.uk/tutorial/diy3/diy3.asp

Anyway,cheers for the replies - if i find anything else interesting i'll put it up here.

I've looked all over the net for distortion programming but theres not much around.There is a computer music tutorial on programming a simple distortion in C++  but i'm not good on C++:

I put together a little example that demonstrates the 

technique that mzed describes. I do not hear a lot of 

difference though. Is there anything I am missing?

I put together a little example that demonstrates the 
technique that mzed describes. I do not hear a lot of 
difference though. Is there anything I am missing?

I think you didn't put high enough values into the multiply~ object. You can go really high here -- I mean thousands...

I think you didn't put high enough values into the multiply~ object.  You can go really high here -- I mean thousands...

I see, I can hear it now. I am curious to know what 

I see, I can hear it now. I am curious to know what 
tanh~ does to a signal.

The help file explains that it applies a hyperbolic tangent function to the signal. If that sounds like greek to you, look here:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HyperbolicTangent.html

Essentially, it clips smoothly, rather than abruptly.

The help file explains that it applies a hyperbolic tangent function to the signal.  If that sounds like greek to you, look here:

I may not undersatnd the formulas, but I understand the 

I may not undersatnd the formulas, but I understand the 
pretty pictures.


You may also want to look at lp.nn~ (Litter Power Starter Pack) and 

lp.scamp~ (Litter Power Pro) for distortion.

Oh, and the next release will contain some examples of unusual ways to 

use Litter Power objects. For instance, you can do phase distortion, 

producing effects similar to Waveshaping, with lp.scamp~. The screen 

shot is a bit big for the mail list, so I've posted it here < 

http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/Examples/PhaseDistortion.

It sounds cute, particularly considering that it's "only" a sinusoid 

You may also want to look at lp.nn~ (Litter Power Starter Pack) and 
lp.scamp~ (Litter Power Pro) for distortion.

Oh, and the next release will contain some examples of unusual ways to 
use Litter Power objects. For instance, you can do phase distortion, 
producing effects similar to Waveshaping, with lp.scamp~. The screen 
shot is a bit big for the mail list, so I've posted it here < http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/Examples/PhaseDistortion. tiff > for 
those interested.

It sounds cute, particularly considering that it's "only" a sinusoid 
that's being driven.

Sounds interesting, I'd love to hear what you come up with. I've got a synth-type patch too, but no distortion as of yet. Just LFO's and filters, plus being able to play soundfiles as well as simple waveforms (on any of 8 channels). Plus each channel has an 8-part harmonics-"adder", rather like organ drawbars, but with totally adjustable settings.

Do you think I could check out your synth sometime? I'm always interested in how people do things in Max. If you'd rather not share, I understand ;)

Do you think I could check out your synth sometime? I'm always interested in how people do things in Max. If you'd rather not share, I understand  ;)

I'm interested to know how your harmonics-"adder" works....

Yes I am interested in this too. I have heard many people 

speak of an aural exciter (Aphex 204 Aural Exciter). What exactly

does it do? Is it just fancy EQ? Or is there something better out there. 

Something that enhances the audio spectra of a sound...

intelligently. Intelligent EQing I guess you can call it. 

Artificial Integillent Equing perhaps? Is there anyone out there

Yes I am interested in this too. I have heard many people 
speak of an aural exciter (Aphex 204 Aural Exciter). What exactly
does it do? Is it just fancy EQ? Or is there something better out there. 
Something that enhances the audio spectra of a sound...
intelligently. Intelligent EQing I guess you can call it. 
Artificial Integillent Equing perhaps? Is there anyone out there
who can offer any ideas?

I'm not much of an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure "Exciters" do more

than eq. They also generate the right amount of distortion overtones in the

I was talking to a very experienced mastering engineer about exposing

problems when trying to open up the high-end on a track via eq. He

suggested generating harmonic distortion on the low-mids instead. He

pointed out he can do that with either an off-the-shelf box or with a good

I'm not much of an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure "Exciters" do more
than eq.  They also generate the right amount of distortion overtones in the
right place.

I was talking to a very experienced mastering engineer about exposing
problems when trying to open up the high-end on a track via eq.  He
suggested generating harmonic distortion on the low-mids instead.  He
pointed out he can do that with either an off-the-shelf box or with a good
transformer.  

an exciter is basically highpassfiltering, distortion, mixing

some analog machines also use various dynamic band selection

before they distort, so that for example only louder parts of

input are processed. (that is also a common techique for stereo

an exciter is basically highpassfiltering, distortion, mixing
to the input.
some analog machines also use various dynamic band selection
before they distort, so that for example only louder parts of
input are processed. (that is also a common techique for stereo
widening fx)

The distortion is designed to generate 2nd order

harmonics on the high-midrange band. This makes the

sound fresher and brighter without changing the eq

balance of the source. It works wonders when remixing

The distortion is designed to generate 2nd order
harmonics on the high-midrange band.  This makes the
sound fresher and brighter without changing the eq
balance of the source.  It works wonders when remixing
old tape masters.


Why is adding DC offset helpful in getting a analog/vintage sound?

Could I in theory use Max Msp to create something like Crane Song HEDD tape emulation?

Why is adding DC offset helpful in getting a analog/vintage sound?
Could I in theory use Max Msp to create something like Crane Song HEDD tape emulation?


I use the DC offset to make clipping-style distortion be asymmetrical . It generates a richer collection of artifacts.

I don't know the Crane Song device, but real analogue distortion is very complex. Anything is possible, but I think it would be hard to simulate an exact result.

I don't know the Crane Song device, but real analogue distortion is very complex.  Anything is possible, but I think it would be hard to simulate an exact result.

why not send some clicks through the HEDD to see what it does at certain levels? might be interesting.

why not send some clicks through the HEDD to see what it does at certain levels?  might be interesting.


I dont have HEDD at my studio, I use UA 2192, much better :)

The HEDD algorithm is the same as the Phoenix plugin if youre on Pro Tools

If you send some clicks through something like HEDD, the result is less than 256 samples, so could you then do convolution in Max?

I understand that a reverb tail is out of the question

If you send some clicks through something like HEDD, the result is less than 256 samples, so could you then do convolution in Max?
I understand that a reverb tail is out of the question


well... it might sound good but I doubt you can do emulations with a single impulse. There was a plugin a few years back that claimed to be able to sample any piece of gear but again, I doubt it was good.

it'll at least get you on the right track.

well... it might sound good but I doubt you can do emulations with a single impulse.  There was a plugin a few years back that claimed to be able to sample any piece of gear but again, I doubt it was good.

it'll at least get you on the right track.


what I would suggest is fiddling a lot. In my experience, good distortion has very little to do with the actual wave shaping and more to do with what comes before and after it, and also with how many times you do it. Max is well equipped to do good distortion.

what I would suggest is fiddling a lot.  In my experience, good distortion has very little to do with the actual wave shaping and more to do with what comes before and after it, and also with how many times you do it.  Max is well equipped to do good distortion.


and i would not overestimate a linear distortion for making cycle~ beeps sound more analog. ^^

coming back to the original 5 year old question ... the most interesting thing to do for

an FM synth is to have free running oscillators with a certain instability - not post processing

coming back to the original 5 year old question ... the most interesting thing to do for
an FM synth is to have free running oscillators with a certain instability - not post processing
of the output.


I've been following this thread with interest, and would like to ask (before I try Google etc) in general, how you would implement 'free-running' oscillators in Max?

@Roman
I've been following this thread with interest, and would like to ask (before I try Google etc) in general, how you would implement 'free-running' oscillators in Max?
Thanks
Brendan


one way would be that you just dont mute them inside poly voices, like

you would normally do when buildings synths.

cycle~ for example normally just runs, isnt it?

that a note on event starts cycle~ in sync with other parts is a feature

you have to implement yourself .. if you dont implement it stuff is "free running".

in a 2-operator FM it would be enough to not mute one of them, with more operators.

a free running sinewave will produce different klicks and pops and that might be

against some fascist sound brilliance rules, but is half the business of making a

one way would be that you just dont mute them inside poly voices, like
you would normally do when buildings synths.

cycle~ for example normally just runs, isnt it? 

that a note on event starts cycle~ in sync with other parts is a feature
you have to implement yourself .. if you dont implement it stuff is "free running".

a free running sinewave will produce different klicks and pops and that might be
against some fascist sound brilliance rules, but is half the business of making a
synth sound "analog".

Distortion is one of those things that you either love or you hate. Some forms of distortion are considered good whilst others are considered bad. Confusing start, right? Most of the time, when we think about distortion we think about guitar amps.

Saturation and distortion are terms that are often used interchangeably. And technically speaking, saturation is a form of distortion. But despite this interrelationship, there are distinct differences in how we define and, more importantly, apply these processes 

 Saturation and distortion are terms that are often used interchangeably. And technically speaking, saturation is a form of distortion. But despite this interrelationship, there are distinct differences in how we define and, more importantly, apply these processes  mypremiercreditcard .  

Distortion/Saturation effect