Drsbaitso

I really like the new forum for being accessible/searchable/convenient and all that jazz, but to me, and this is based on nothing at all, the amount of just flat out stupid posts seems relatively overwhelming. Can't we like kick off people that haven't read the damn tutorials or don't know how to use stuffit?

While the mailing list was the primary means of interMAX communication, it seemed there were a lot more "worthy" topics being posted, now its like n00b town. Ok, now I'm just beating a dead horse, but I find myself jaded at this forum and its crappy topics/reads lately.

I really like the new forum for being accessible/searchable/convenient and all that jazz, but to me, and this is based on nothing at all, the amount of just flat out stupid posts seems relatively overwhelming.  Can't we like kick off people that haven't read the damn tutorials or don't know how to use stuffit?

forum-synonymous-with-stupidity

I've the same strange feeling these days (even got 350 mails late !). 

Without saying i have a problem with noobs at all (we're all noobs on 

something, and it last long for max !), it's right that the subjects are 

Anyway, glad to see all these new kids wanting to do the dj with max :-O

I've the same strange feeling these days (even got 350 mails late !). 
Without saying i have a problem with noobs at all (we're all noobs on 
something, and it last long for max !), it's right that the subjects are 
a little bit low-minded these days...

yes, we are all n00bs. The more I learn about max the more I want to know, and the more I realize I know absoultely nothing about not only IT, but pretty much everything. deep stuff, man. Anyways, it IS pretty lowminded around here of late. On the mailing list there seemed to be all my max "heros" having conversations. You know, the big 3rd party developers as well as 1st party support really having it out. Now, like you said, its clubby kid douche bag "I wanna DJ with Max" bullcrap that just drives me crazy. It reminds me the Cubase forums.

i totally agree. i ranted about the forum a lot in the beginning but 

nothing has been done.. some kind of n00b forum not mirrored on the 

mailing list would be nice.. my inbox has a bellyache and i get pissed 

off when people ask about "an object that sends a 1 and then a 0 when 

clicked"........ there is no other way to learn max than to read the doc 

and do the tutorials, but these people just don't get it..

i totally agree. i ranted about the forum a lot in the beginning but 
nothing has been done.. some kind of n00b forum not mirrored on the 
mailing list would be nice.. my inbox has a bellyache and i get pissed 
off when people ask about "an object that sends a 1 and then a 0 when 
clicked"........ there is no other way to learn max than to read the doc 
and do the tutorials, but these people just don't get it..

(this was originally going to be the answer to another

post, but it seems even more appropriate here...)

Perhaps it's time for a new section on the forum, for

"Students Needing Help with Assignments that are Due

My experience of working with students has led me to

the conclusion that, a) they always start work at the

last possible moment, thereby not allowing time for

things like reading the FM, and b) ask questions first

before eventually reading the FM as a last resort,

'cos surely that's what support staff/forums are there

Sorry if that seems a rather harsh generalisation, but

I spend much of my working day smiling politely and

trying to be helpful, when what i want to say is

I really don't want to be doing that on my favourite

(this was originally going to be the answer to another
post, but it seems even more appropriate here...)

Perhaps it's time for a new section on the forum, for
"Students Needing Help with Assignments that are Due
in Next Week" ?

My experience of working with students has led me to
the conclusion that, a) they always start work at the
last possible moment, thereby not allowing time for
things like reading the FM, and b) ask questions first
before eventually reading the FM as a last resort,
'cos surely that's what support staff/forums are there
for anyway?

Sorry if that seems a rather harsh generalisation, but
I spend much of my working day smiling politely and
trying to be helpful, when what i want to say is
"RTFM!"
 I really don't want to be doing that on my favourite
mailing list too ;-)
cheers
Roger


even though bine~ told me to 'fuck off' while 'sucking his balls' (which is really fuckiing lame), I agree. There should be a place for 'stupid' questions from people who are beginning that won't waste the time of people who don't want to deal with them.

You know,
even though bine~ told me to 'fuck off' while 'sucking his balls' (which is really fuckiing lame), I agree.  There should be a place for 'stupid' questions from people who are beginning that won't waste the time of people who don't want to deal with them.


While this may be true, I think it's important to remember that we were 

at one point all new to the software, and to try to be tolerant of (and 

excited by) the appearance of new users on these lists.

It's incumbent upon the more experienced users of the software (and the 

list) to help train the newcomers, with as gentle a guiding hand as 

possible. RTFM might be the appropriate response in many, but certainly 

One of the reasons for the switch to an online forum was to make new 

users feel welcome, and to make the wisdom of the hive mind available to 

all. Please join us in this effort, and help those learning the basics 

of complex software become as good and self-sufficient as you wish they 

While this may be true, I think it's important to remember that we were 
at one point all new to the software, and to try to be tolerant of (and 
excited by) the appearance of new users on these lists.

It's incumbent upon the more experienced users of the software (and the 
list) to help train the newcomers, with as gentle a guiding hand as 
possible. RTFM might be the appropriate response in many, but certainly 
not in all newbie situations.

One of the reasons for the switch to an online forum was to make new 
users feel welcome, and to make the wisdom of the hive mind available to 
all. Please join us in this effort, and help those learning the basics 
of complex software become as good and self-sufficient as you wish they 
were!

wow, what a load of self-aggrandizing, elitist whining. 

next time you're new to something, i hope your potential mentors, teachers, or colleagues generalize you as 'stupid' in a public forum.

wow, what a load of self-aggrandizing, elitist whining. 
next time you're new to something, i hope your potential mentors, teachers, or colleagues generalize you as 'stupid' in a public forum.


i delete a lot of posts that are not from "newbies" b/c they are not 

relevant to my projects, contain no hidden gems of info, or are 

actually plugs for people's own externals, and I don't send a post 

compaining about it. these "newbies" can probably learn from posts 

from "non-newbies" that are relevant to their projects, do contain 

hidden gems, or plug a 3rd-party external that saves their lives. if 

you don't want to bother with someone's post, or an entire thread, 

delete it (or filter it). it takes less time than maxmsp. or do it 

i delete a lot of posts that are not from "newbies" b/c they are not  
relevant to my projects, contain no hidden gems of info, or are  
actually plugs for people's own externals, and I don't send a post  
compaining about it.  these "newbies" can probably learn from posts  
from "non-newbies" that are relevant to their projects, do contain  
hidden gems, or plug a 3rd-party external that saves their lives.  if  
you don't want to bother with someone's post, or an entire thread,  
delete it (or filter it).  it takes less time than maxmsp.  or do it  
in max and post it.

I joined the mailing list when it was still only email based sometime last year and am grateful for the amount of help and tutoring I have received from the more knowledgable users in this forum and all users in general. Some of the ways of programming efficiently in MaxMsp arent necessarily evident from the manual no matter how many times you read, that comes through experience and creative thinking.

I would also agree though that quite alot of questions ARE clearly answered in the manual. I get slightly p'd off when people on my course and that live in my student halls (especially there as I am constantly being asked) ask me simple questions which they would get from the manual. I still help them out generally as it allows me to get on with my work, but lately I have increasingly been asking them "Did you read the manual and google for any relevant information?".

So I do see the annoying side of it but often its just a matter of gently helping people in the right direction. And to the remark about people wanting to make Dj patches, I see that as a perfectly reasonable type of patch/projet. Its just a trend which many people are interested in and surely it can only be a good thing if they are getting into Max/MSp right?

When I finish my final project, which I hand in later on in May I will be posting a link to its standalone file and possibly submitting it to C47/share.

So I do see the annoying side of it but often its just a matter of gently helping people in the right direction. And to the remark about people wanting to make Dj patches, I see that as a perfectly reasonable type of patch/projet. Its just a trend which many people are interested in and surely it can only be a good thing if they are getting into Max/MSp right?
When I finish my final project, which I hand in later on in May I will be posting a link to its standalone file and possibly submitting it to C47/share.

> some kind of n00b forum not mirrored on the

Are we maybe jealous of those students wanting to do something else than 

patching and/or working ? for example music(I'm in that case !) / 

traveling / reading / drawing / fighting against f*** google, microsoft 

& apple / swimming / playing soccer (I'm not in that case but why not ?) ?

It's so easy to answer simple questions with just the name of the object 

I loose more time in reading stupid posts about mac/pc, forum/mailing 

list,... than in reading newbie questions.

> some kind of n00b forum not mirrored on the
 > mailing list would be nice..

Are we maybe jealous of those students wanting to do something else than 
patching and/or working ? for example music(I'm in that case !) / 
traveling / reading / drawing / fighting against f*** google, microsoft 
& apple / swimming / playing soccer (I'm not in that case but why not ?) ?

It's so easy to answer simple questions with just the name of the object 
+ 1 line advising to read the doc.

I loose more time in reading stupid posts about mac/pc, forum/mailing 
list,... than in reading newbie questions.

you are totally right. guess i'm just having a bad day and needed to vent..

peace to all newbies, i'll try to remember the time when i was one when 

peace to all newbies, i'll try to remember the time when i was one when 
answering posts from now on.

I'm new to the software-- heck, I haven't built anything yet (still going

through said tutorials). I understand while it can be irritating to see

"hello, I need to DJ with max tomorrow and how do you do it?" it's also

irritating to get "rtfm" as a response to legitimate questions. Use of the

word 'n00b' is total crap, and signifies a sort of elitist mindset that

pervades certain communities (Linux, I am looking in your direction).

The "I wanna DJ with Max" people will likely drop off when they figure out

that the whole Max thing is a little more complicated than they thought--

like it or not, computer based music is now a fairly easy thing to do, and

the people looking for a quick fix will go back to Live and Reason (great

tools, by the way)... Maybe they heard of Max because their musical hero

But there are folk who want to learn, and sometimes the tutorials don't

teach everything they can, or teach an idea in a way that doesn't 'click',

and may ask questions that seem obvious, or may be 'thinking past the

That having been said a 'hey, I'm new' forum might not be the worst idea,

assuming that vets are willing to go into it and be helpful-- otherwise, it

will quickly become a ghetto, and people will use the non new forum because

I'm new to the software-- heck, I haven't built anything yet (still going
through said tutorials). I understand while it can be irritating to see
"hello, I need to DJ with max tomorrow and how do you do it?" it's also
irritating to get "rtfm" as a response to legitimate questions. Use of the
word 'n00b' is total crap, and signifies a sort of elitist mindset that
pervades certain communities (Linux, I am looking in your direction).

The "I wanna DJ with Max" people will likely drop off when they figure out
that the whole Max thing is a little more complicated than they thought--
like it or not, computer based music is now a fairly easy thing to do, and
the people looking for a quick fix will go back to Live and Reason (great
tools, by the way)... Maybe they heard of Max because their musical hero
uses it.

But there are folk who want to learn, and sometimes the tutorials don't
teach everything they can, or teach an idea in a way that doesn't 'click',
and may ask questions that seem obvious, or may be 'thinking past the
problem'.

That having been said a 'hey, I'm new' forum might not be the worst idea,
assuming that vets are willing to go into it and be helpful-- otherwise, it
will quickly become a ghetto, and people will use the non new forum because
the new one is just a junkheap.

The other thing that might not go amiss is a stickied "hey, read this" in

the forums which identifies what Max is/is not, and how the list is

structured, and what manner of questions it's for.

The other thing that might not go amiss is a stickied "hey, read this" in
the forums which identifies what Max is/is not, and how the list is
structured, and what manner of questions it's for.

Do you know what I find much more annoying and distressing than newbie

questions? The outright nastiness and hostility that many of you display

to new users. I also find the pretentious, preening elitism on display

to be sickening. This discussion is not a private club, and it is

certainly not your personal toilet to spew verbal diarrhea into. For

folks who seem to take a lot of aesthetic pride in the fact that you

interact with the discussion via mailing list, you sure do seem to come

up mysteriously ignorant when it comes to using the delete key.

The bottom line is, the forums are not going away, and no amount of

"venting" is going to make them go away. I will say this -- if you

*cannot* employ a respectful, moderate tone when posting to this

discussion, you may find yourself temporarily banned from both the forum

Todd's statement that "The "I wanna DJ with Max" people will likely drop

off when they figure out that the whole Max thing is a little more

complicated than they thought" is right on the money. That being said, I

would much rather see a "newbie" figure out that Max isn't for them

based on the "complicated" factor rather than the "all the people on

Do you know what I find much more annoying and distressing than newbie
questions? The outright nastiness and hostility that many of you display
to new users. I also find the pretentious, preening elitism on display
to be sickening. This discussion is not a private club, and it is
certainly not your personal toilet to spew verbal diarrhea into. For
folks who seem to take a lot of aesthetic pride in the fact that you
interact with the discussion via mailing list, you sure do seem to come
up mysteriously ignorant when it comes to using the delete key.

The bottom line is, the forums are not going away, and no amount of
"venting" is going to make them go away. I will say this -- if you
*cannot* employ a respectful, moderate tone when posting to this
discussion, you may find yourself temporarily banned from both the forum
and the mailing list.

Todd's statement that "The "I wanna DJ with Max" people will likely drop
off when they figure out that the whole Max thing is a little more
complicated than they thought" is right on the money. That being said, I
would much rather see a "newbie" figure out that Max isn't for them
based on the "complicated" factor rather than the "all the people on
this forum are assholes" factor.

woooohoooooou ! Yeah !!! Another noob mutiny ! Debout time ! Come get 

some ! Ammo, ammo ! Reload ! Shift-click, strafe, headshots ! Respawn ! 

f.e chanfrault | aka | personal computer music

> >>>>>> |sublime music for a desperate people|

woooohoooooou ! Yeah !!! Another noob mutiny ! Debout time ! Come get 
some ! Ammo, ammo ! Reload ! Shift-click, strafe, headshots ! Respawn ! 
;-)))))))

f.e chanfrault | aka | personal computer music
> >>>>>> http://www.personal-computer-music.com
> >>>>>> |sublime music for a desperate people|


I'm teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my students 

that the list is a great resource, but if they're going to post, it had 

better be after thoroughly consulting the documentation and help files. 

I would imagine that many of the people here are teachers of Max as 

well as users, so similar warnings (for those who haven't already) 

I'm teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my students 
that the list is a great resource, but if they're going to post, it had 
better be after thoroughly consulting the documentation and help files. 
   I would imagine that many of the people here are teachers of Max as 
well as users, so similar warnings (for those who haven't already) 
might help things out as well.

The forum is great, especially for people with the computer ability to 

help themselves, but I think we could agree that classes, for many of 

us, myself included, have been helpful at some point. For those of you 

in the NYC area for whom RTFM hasn't helped (or it has, but you're not 

sure about the next steps...) and are interested, I teach private 

Max/MSP lessons (and have done so for the last 4 years) at very 

reasonable rates. (especially when compared to the University hourly 

If you're interested, please contact me off-list. Those of you who 

are not interested, please pardon this brief ad for max-related 

The forum is great, especially for people with the computer ability to 
help themselves, but I think we could agree that classes, for many of 
us, myself included, have been helpful at some point.  For those of you 
in the NYC area for whom RTFM hasn't helped (or it has, but you're not 
sure about the next steps...) and are interested, I teach private 
Max/MSP lessons (and have done so for the last 4 years) at very 
reasonable rates.  (especially when compared to the University hourly 
tuition)

If you're interested, please contact me off-list.   Those of you who 
are not interested, please pardon this brief ad for max-related 
services.

i have been working with Max/Msp for 4 or 5 years now and only recently felt confident enough to contribute to this community. these rather hostile anti-newcomer comments tend to reinforce my feelings of insecurity, but won't deter me from offering suggestions to people i think i might be able to help out. requests for the bleeding obvious i can happily ignore without any inconvenience to myself.

On 20 Apr 2006, at 17:14, Peter McCulloch wrote:

> I'm teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my 

> students that the list is a great resource, but if they're going to 

> post, it had better be after thoroughly consulting the 

Joshua often posts a link to Eric Raymond's "How To Ask Questions The 

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- 

> I'm teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my  
> students that the list is a great resource, but if they're going to  
> post, it had better be after thoroughly consulting the  
> documentation and help files.

Joshua often posts a link to Eric Raymond's "How To Ask Questions The  
Smart Way" paper.

Here it is again: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

   nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http:// 
www.cassiel.com


>I'm teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my >students 

>that the list is a great resource, but if they're going to post, >it had 

>better be after thoroughly consulting the documentation and help >files. 

>I would imagine that many of the people here are teachers of Max >as 

>well as users, so similar warnings (for those who haven't already) 

I guess you are giving your students the right advice Peter.

I am a Max user since 6-7 years now. when i started at the fine arts school of Cergy in Paris i was pretty much left on my own , had no programming background at all and a very weak knowledge of computers in general : i was completely lost ! i spent patiently my time reading the manuals ( when they were still printed out...) in the subway , learning both Max and English at the same time !

Later on i had the chance to meet Jash and Jeremy Bernstein from whom i received great guidance . I am still learning on a daily basis.

Since two and half years i have been teaching introductory classes and got a few max related jobs here and there.

The issue is that in most art schools i came across Max has been introduced very recently and/or there was not always an experienced faculty member teaching it, which often leaves the students on their own.

Max since the introduction of Jitter has made a huge blow in the New Media scene and we will see more and more users , more and more newbies asking the same question again and again and again .

i think it is an indication that a light, synthetized , extremely basic tutorial needs to be created which gives you a very quick hands on. i am working on one that i will post in the next couple of weeks .

I find for example Andrew's Jitter recipes a great ressource. They are clear, well documented. Maybe more of these should be put online .Plus we all have different approaches and tricks that could be gathered somewhere , sort of a database of patches that users could consult . I understand it is what the forum is supposed to do but it is clear that the forum will be soon overflowed by newcomers and that something could be done about it to handle it before oldtimers , from whom i/the community learn a lot, start participating less in the forum.

we should not forget that not everybody speaks english, not everybody has the same experience with computers, and not everybody has a teacher nearby so it is obvious that people will use the forum to find quick responses and appropirate guidance.

>I'm teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my >students 
>that the list is a great resource, but if they're going to post, >it had 
>better be after thoroughly consulting the documentation and help >files. 
>I would imagine that many of the people here are teachers of Max >as 
>well as users, so similar warnings (for those who haven't already) 
>might help things out as well.

I guess you are giving your students the right advice Peter.
I am a Max user since 6-7 years now. when i started at the fine arts school of Cergy in Paris i was pretty much left on my own , had no programming background at all and a very weak knowledge of computers in general : i was completely lost ! i spent patiently my time reading the manuals ( when they were still printed out...) in the subway , learning both Max and English at the same time !
Later on i had the chance to meet Jash and Jeremy Bernstein from whom i received great guidance . I am still learning on a daily basis.
Since two and half years i have been teaching introductory classes and got a few max related jobs here and there.
The issue is that in most art schools i came across Max has been introduced very recently and/or there was not always an experienced faculty member teaching it, which often leaves the students on their own.
Max since the introduction of Jitter has made a huge blow in the New Media scene and we will see more and more users , more and more newbies asking the same question again and again and again .

i think it is an indication that a light, synthetized , extremely basic tutorial needs to be created which gives you a very quick hands on. i am working on one that i will post in the next couple of weeks .
I find for example Andrew's Jitter recipes a great ressource. They are clear, well documented. Maybe more of these should be put online .Plus we all have different approaches and tricks that could be gathered somewhere , sort of a database of patches that users could consult . I understand it is what the forum is supposed to do but it is clear that the forum will be soon overflowed by newcomers and that something could be done about it to handle it before oldtimers , from whom i/the community learn a lot, start participating less in the forum.

one of the more embarrassing aspects of the forum's porting to a web 

bbs is that it's much easier for me to go back and look at my history 

on the max list, and recoil with horror when i am reminded about just 

so more people are discovering max now. quelle catastrophe!

many things could be worse. people could be leaving the environment 

one of the more embarrassing aspects of the forum's porting to a web  
bbs is that it's much easier for me to go back and look at my history  
on the max list, and recoil with horror when i am reminded about just  
how much of a n00b i was in 2000.

so more people are discovering max now.  quelle catastrophe!

many things could be worse.  people could be leaving the environment  
in droves, f'rinstance.


>> I really like the new forum for being accessible/searchable/convenient and all that jazz, but to me, and this is based on nothing at all, the amount of just flat out stupid posts seems relatively overwhelming. Can't we like kick off people that haven't read the damn tutorials or don't know how to use stuffit?

this has been discussed before, please search the 

and please make surre to put "OT" in the subject for

>> I really like the new forum for being accessible/searchable/convenient and all that jazz, but to me, and this is based on nothing at all, the amount of just flat out stupid posts seems relatively overwhelming.  Can't we like kick off people that haven't read the damn tutorials or don't know how to use stuffit?

this has been discussed before, please search the 
archives before you are asking.

and please make surre to put "OT" in the subject for
off topic posts.

i'm trying to do a polite threadjacking here... guess i'll also tack on

> I would think that were I to attempt an implementation of scrambled 

> hackz it would take me at least 1 month to do it right. If you don't

> know max, figure an extra month in. Time for you to use a bit of 

I've been learning Max/MSP through a serious project for four years now

forum synonymous with stupidity?