CKNY

Alright, this maybe stupid question for some of you....but I still want to ask around and give it a try.

My project is to video tracking 5 different colors by using iSight in jitter. I don't have any problem in this part. I have successfully get the each color position from camera (x,y). What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn't make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

If I can not use any way to help make my MIDI music sounds better, I will probably just use loops and send those position numbers to groove~ or something like that.....but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always sounds the same.

I appreciate any advices, suggestions....thank you so much

how-to-make-my-midi-music-make-sense

Quote: CKNY wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:13

----------------------------------------------------

> Alright, this maybe stupid question for some of you....but I still want to ask around and give it a try.

> My project is to video tracking 5 different colors by using iSight in jitter. I don't have any problem in this part. I have successfully get the each color position from camera (x,y). What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn't make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

> If I can not use any way to help make my MIDI music sounds better, I will probably just use loops and send those position numbers to groove~ or something like that.....but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always sounds the same.

> I appreciate any advices, suggestions....thank you so much

This is a huge question, especially not knowing your aesthetic.

Perhaps limiting the MIDI pitch numbers to a musical scale that you like might get you moving in a prettier direction.

Quote: CKNY wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:13
----------------------------------------------------
> Alright, this maybe stupid question for some of you....but I still want to ask around and give it a try.
>
> My project is to video tracking 5 different colors by using iSight in jitter. I don't have any problem in this part. I have successfully get the each color position from camera (x,y). What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn't make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?
>
> If I can not use any way to help make my MIDI music sounds better, I will probably just use loops and send those position numbers to groove~ or something like that.....but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always sounds the same.
>
> I appreciate any advices, suggestions....thank you so much
>
>
----------------------------------------------------

Quote: CKNY wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 16:13

> What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn't make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

What you need to do is called "composition".

You need to decide what kinds of sounds (scales, harmonies, rhythms, melodies, textures, counterpoint, dynamics, articulation, agogic, etc.) you want. Then you need to invent a way to map the possible numbers your Jitter patch is generating to produce the music you want.

It can be really quite simple, but you do have to make decisions and shape your input. This is what algorithmic composition is about.

Quote: CKNY wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 16:13
----------------------------------------------------
>  What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn't make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?
>
> I appreciate any advices, suggestions....thank you so much
>
----------------------------------------------------

What you need to do is called "composition". 

It can be really quite simple, but you do have to make decisions and shape your input. This is what algorithmic composition is about.


> Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming

> information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

> ...but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always

I would suggest to switch on the radio, then your music is in defined 

"beauty" space - nobody will recognize its not related to your images...

Sorry, but what is ugly music? I do make music with loops, and it never 

sounds the same (but you might find it ugly... ;-)

Anybody who would have suggestions would describe his own music, the fun 

about creativity is that YOU create YOUR music. So who else could answer 

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming
> information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

> ...but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always
> sounds the same.

I would suggest to switch on the radio, then your music is in defined 
"beauty" space - nobody will recognize its not related to your images...

Sorry, but what is ugly music? I do make music with loops, and it never 
sounds the same (but you might find it ugly... ;-)

Anybody who would have suggestions would describe his own music, the fun 
about creativity is that YOU create YOUR music. So who else could answer 
your question but you to yourself.???

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 01:02

> > Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming

> > information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

> > ...but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always

> > I appreciate any advices, suggestions....thank you so much

> I would suggest to switch on the radio, then your music is in defined 

> "beauty" space - nobody will recognize its not related to your images...

> Sorry, but what is ugly music? I do make music with loops, and it never 

> sounds the same (but you might find it ugly... ;-)

> Anybody who would have suggestions would describe his own music, the fun 

> about creativity is that YOU create YOUR music. So who else could answer 

Sorry I think you might misunderstood what I mean. I have very bad English. Now I understand if I want to make my MIDI playback more better, I got to have a idea how to arrange those MIDI note. But what I am more interest to do right now is to make loops. But I am really new to Max/MSP, I don't quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different every time. What I can think of right now is just using "groove~", "fft~" and "combfilter~" and send variable information which I get from video tracking so that loops will sounds a little bit different because the information is changing.

My idea for my project is save around 20 loops in MSP (all the loops are in the same or very close rpm range) with "fft~" and "combfilter~". There will be 3 to 4 loops playback at the same time. All the Loops will randomly change every 10 seconds by metro.....but I need better ideas.......

Do you or does anybody have any better idea of making better loops so even I only have 3 or 4 loops I will still make them sound different every time (not always sounds the same, I don't mean "ugly")? I am very very very appreciate If anyone can show me a way to see any helpful tutorial or tell me any object I don't know.

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 01:02
----------------------------------------------------
> UCDMSRA schrieb:
> > Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming
> > information so the music will not sounds so ugly?
>
> LOL
>
> > ...but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always
> > sounds the same.
>
> ROFL
>
> > I appreciate any advices, suggestions....thank you so much
>
> I would suggest to switch on the radio, then your music is in defined 
> "beauty" space - nobody will recognize its not related to your images...
>
> Sorry, but what is ugly music? I do make music with loops, and it never 
> sounds the same (but you might find it ugly... ;-)
>
> Anybody who would have suggestions would describe his own music, the fun 
> about creativity is that YOU create YOUR music. So who else could answer 
> your question but you to yourself.???
>
> Stefan
>
> -- 
> Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
> --_____-----------|--------------
> --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
> -- _|_)----|-----()--------------
> ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
>
>
----------------------------------------------------

Sorry I think you might misunderstood what I mean. I have very bad English. Now I understand if I want to make my MIDI playback more better, I got to have a idea how to arrange those MIDI note. But what I am more interest to do right now is to make loops. But I am really new to Max/MSP, I don't quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different every time. What I can think of right now is just using "groove~", "fft~" and "combfilter~" and send variable information which I get from video tracking so that loops will sounds a little bit different because the information is changing. 

I don't know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but have a look 

http://www.estatesound.com/content.php?page=software.php

> I don't quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different 

Do you mean rhythmic changes - ie beat slicing and re-arranging?

Or tonal changes - loudness of individual beats (accents), filtering, 

Changes on the beat (or part of beat) or over a period of a bar or so?

Do you mean making different combinations of several loops playing 

simultaneously? (1+2+4; 2+4+8; 1+5+3 etc)

Once you have some idea what you want to hear, or roughly what you 

want to have happen, it becomes a lot easier to design a process to 

I don't know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but have a look  
at AntiLoop at:

> I don't quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different  
> every time.

Do you mean rhythmic changes - ie beat slicing and re-arranging?
Or tonal changes - loudness of individual beats (accents), filtering,  
pitch shifting, etc etc etc?
Changes on the beat (or part of beat) or over a period of a bar or so?
Do you mean making different combinations of several loops playing  
simultaneously? (1+2+4; 2+4+8; 1+5+3 etc)

Once you have some idea what you want to hear, or roughly what you  
want to have happen, it becomes a lot easier to design a process to  
do that.

Quote: david stevens wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 13:05

> I don't know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but have a look 

> > I don't quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different 

> Do you mean rhythmic changes - ie beat slicing and re-arranging?

> Or tonal changes - loudness of individual beats (accents), filtering, 

> Changes on the beat (or part of beat) or over a period of a bar or so?

> Do you mean making different combinations of several loops playing 

> simultaneously? (1+2+4; 2+4+8; 1+5+3 etc)

> Once you have some idea what you want to hear, or roughly what you 

> want to have happen, it becomes a lot easier to design a process to 

Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9....) and all the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I haven't use MSP for much time so that's the only idea I can think of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.

Quote: david stevens wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 13:05
----------------------------------------------------
> I don't know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but have a look  
> at AntiLoop at:
>
> http://www.estatesound.com/content.php?page=software.php
>
> > I don't quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different  
> > every time.
>
> Different in what way?
>
> Do you mean rhythmic changes - ie beat slicing and re-arranging?
> Or tonal changes - loudness of individual beats (accents), filtering,  
> pitch shifting, etc etc etc?
> Changes on the beat (or part of beat) or over a period of a bar or so?
> Do you mean making different combinations of several loops playing  
> simultaneously? (1+2+4; 2+4+8; 1+5+3 etc)
>
> Or something else entirely?
>
> Once you have some idea what you want to hear, or roughly what you  
> want to have happen, it becomes a lot easier to design a process to  
> do that.
>
> David
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------

check out the modsquad patch in the examples folder... i think you may 

> Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9....) and all the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I haven't use MSP for much time so that's the only idea I can think of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.

check out the modsquad patch in the examples folder... i think you may 
be pleased and inspired.

UCDMSRA wrote:
> Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9....) and all the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I haven't use MSP for much time so that's the only idea I can think of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.


this question is troublesome... I don't like it!

Quote: jamez wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 18:31

> this question is troublesome... I don't like it!

I know this question is stupid and I kind of sorry for asking this question. After learning Max/MSP for just ONE MONTH, I gradually know I still have long way to go.

Actually, I am the beginner of Max/MSP. I respect all of you and I hope I will getting stronger if I learn hard and learn quickly. I believe everyone has been the "beginner" before just like me and I really appreciate people who don't feel annoying and trouble for my stupid question.

To be honestly I am not good at audio part. Film/Video and Motion Graphic is probably my major field. I just want to learn more and know more about computer music....and I will do my best to go this way.

Quote: jamez wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 18:31
----------------------------------------------------
> this question is troublesome... I don't like it!
----------------------------------------------------

Actually, I am the beginner of Max/MSP. I respect all of you and I hope I will getting stronger if I learn hard and learn quickly. I believe everyone has been the "beginner" before just like me and I really appreciate people who don't feel annoying and trouble for my stupid question. 

To be honestly I am not good at audio part. Film/Video and Motion Graphic is probably my major field. I just want to learn more and know more about computer music....and I will do my best to go this way.


> Sorry I think you might misunderstood what I mean.

> Do you or does anybody have any better idea of making better loops so

> even I only have 3 or 4 loops I will still make them sound different

> every time (not always sounds the same, I don't mean "ugly")?

It's as Peter said. What you ask for is called "composition".

If I tell you what I do with loops a term like BPM would not fit, and I 

The way you talk about uglyness let me think, that you didn't dive too 

much into composition or even into listening to other music than the 

ugly music of waiting loops on the phone or these annoying repeating 

music of games. If you want to learn composing and/or playing an 

instrument, the first thing to do is to listen.

If you know what is ugly, you still haven't found out what is beauty, 

Based on that you would modify the ugly till you transformed it into 

If you listen to a loop and every 4 seconds there is a "boom", and you 

think thats ugly, try to get rid of the "boom", or place it somewhere 

else or replace it with a "baam". Just as a starting point...

Only after you found a way to modify your loops into something more 

interesting, you can start to think about a way to link your visuals 

with parameters of your sound generation.

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> Sorry I think you might misunderstood what I mean.

> Do you or does anybody have any better idea of making better loops so
> even I only have 3 or 4 loops I will still make them sound different
> every time (not always sounds the same, I don't mean "ugly")?

It's as Peter said. What you ask for is called "composition".
If I tell you what I do with loops a term like BPM would not fit, and I 
don't store a single loop.
The way you talk about uglyness let me think, that you didn't dive too 
much into composition or even into listening to other music than the 
ugly music of waiting loops on the phone or these annoying repeating 
music of games. If you want to learn composing and/or playing an 
instrument, the first thing to do is to listen.
If you know what is ugly,  you still haven't found out what is beauty, 
though you might have an idea of it.
Based on that you would modify the ugly till you transformed it into 
your personal beauty.

If you listen to a loop and every 4 seconds there is a "boom", and you 
think thats ugly, try to get rid of the "boom", or place it somewhere 
else or replace it with a "baam". Just as a starting point...
And listen again....

Only after you found a way to modify your loops into something more 
interesting, you can start to think about a way to link your visuals 
with parameters of your sound generation.

> Quote: jamez wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 18:31 

> ----------------------------------------------------

>> this question is troublesome... I don't like it!

I like troublesome questions, actually these are the only interesting 

> I know this question is stupid and I kind of sorry for asking this

Don't feel sorry. It might sound stupid for some, but for you its an 

essential one. You deserve an answer. You got answers, though they might 

> After learning Max/MSP for just ONE MONTH, I gradually know

It looks like there is more than skills in Max/MSP what you want to 

learn. My answers where related to the other skills you want to develop. 

I think they are much more important than patching skills...

> To be honestly I am not good at audio part. Film/Video and Motion

> Graphic is probably my major field. I just want to learn more and

> know more about computer music....and I will do my best to go this

I can tell you there is a big demand. Whenever I watch my son playing 

computer games, I am buffled about the quality of the graphics with a 

pretty high artistic degree (ignoring personal taste). At the same time 

its unbelievable how bad the music is... It would be the ideal field for 

algorithmic composition, but its not explored yet...

I can only encourage you to go your way, it won't be a short one though. 

Take your time, listen to a lot of music (definitely NOT in the radio), 

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> Quote: jamez wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 18:31 
> ----------------------------------------------------
>> this question is troublesome... I don't like it!
> ----------------------------------------------------

I like troublesome questions, actually these are the only interesting 
ones... ;-)

> I know this question is stupid and I kind of sorry for asking this
> question.

Don't feel sorry. It might sound stupid for some, but for you its an 
essential one. You deserve an answer. You got answers, though they might 
not be what you expected...

> After learning Max/MSP for just ONE MONTH, I gradually know
> I still have long way to go.

It looks like there is more than skills in Max/MSP what you want to 
learn. My answers where related to the other skills you want to develop. 
I think they are much more important than patching skills...

> To be honestly I am not good at audio part. Film/Video and Motion
> Graphic is probably my major field. I just want to learn more and
> know more about computer music....and I will do my best to go this
> way.

I can tell you there is a big demand. Whenever I watch my son playing 
computer games, I am buffled about the quality of the graphics with a 
pretty high artistic degree (ignoring personal taste). At the same time 
its unbelievable how bad the music is... It would be the ideal field for 
algorithmic composition, but its not explored yet...

I can only encourage you to go your way, it won't be a short one though. 
Take your time, listen to a lot of music (definitely NOT in the radio), 
open your ears and learn...

So that you realise what you're getting in to - it _is going to take 

a while for you to get up to speed with max and msp. But it's worth 

it - and it never stops! And having a specific "instrument" that you 

want to build makes it a lot easier. Do take the time to write out 

the process of what you want to do. Maybe draw a kind of flow diagram.

A lot of the answers you seek are in the tutorials - it's really 

really important to work through them, as that's how you'll absorb 

There's two ways of playing your loops - sfplay~ and something based 

on buffer~s. For what you want to do, I would use buffer~. You could 

either have a buffer~ for every single loop, or have (say) twice the 

number of buffer~s that you want playing at once, and load them 

dynamically using the read or replace commands. Ie buffer~s A,B & C 

playing loops 1+5+4, whilst loops 2+7+3 are being loaded into 

See the buffer~ help patch and the relevant Tutorials (sorry - I 

As you want several buffers to stay in sync, you should look at using 

wave~ to read them rather than groove~. I'd suggest making a patch 

with a couple of buffer~s and wave~s to read them, and figure out how 

to drive the wave~s in sync. (Hint - you'll need a ramp going from 0. 

Then duplicate that part of the patch, and set up something that 

reloads one pair of buffers whilst the other 2 are playing; and 

something that switches the ramp between the two pairs. (And that 

triggers the load messages once at the right moment ).

If you want to randomise this process, though there are some relevant 

objects in the standard distro, you might also look at the free bit 

of the Litter Objects package, and the RTC Library (free). Look on 

Again, figuring out the flow of the process on paper will help you a 

> Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several 

> different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9....) and all 

> the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I 

> haven't use MSP for much time so that's the only idea I can think 

> of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also 

> very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any 

> objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I 

> use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar 

> to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always 

> sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.

So that you realise what you're getting in to - it _is going to take  
a while for you to get up to speed with max and msp. But it's worth  
it - and it never stops! And having a specific "instrument" that you  
want to build makes it a lot easier. Do take the time to write out  
the process of what you want to do. Maybe draw a kind of flow diagram.

A lot of the answers you seek are in the tutorials - it's really  
really important to work through them, as that's how you'll absorb  
the basic concepts for working with max.

There's two ways of playing your loops - sfplay~ and something based  
on buffer~s. For what you want to do, I would use buffer~. You could  
either have a buffer~ for every single loop, or have (say) twice the  
number of buffer~s that you want playing at once, and load them  
dynamically using the read or replace commands. Ie buffer~s A,B & C  
playing loops 1+5+4, whilst loops 2+7+3 are being loaded into  
buffer~s D,E & F.
See the buffer~ help patch and the relevant Tutorials (sorry - I  
believe that should now be Torturials).

As you want several buffers to stay in sync, you should look at using  
wave~ to read them rather than groove~. I'd suggest making a patch  
with a couple of buffer~s and wave~s to read them, and figure out how  
to drive the wave~s in sync. (Hint - you'll need a ramp going from 0.  
to 1.)
Then duplicate that part of the patch, and set up something that  
reloads one pair of buffers whilst the other 2 are playing; and  
something that switches the ramp between the two pairs. (And that  
triggers the load messages once at the right moment ).

If you want to randomise this process, though there are some relevant  
objects in the standard distro, you might also look at the free bit  
of the Litter Objects package, and the RTC Library (free). Look on  
maxobjects.com to find them.

Again, figuring out the flow of the process on paper will help you a  
lot at this point.

>
> Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several  
> different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9....) and all  
> the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I  
> haven't use MSP for much time so that's the only idea I can think  
> of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also  
> very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any  
> objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I  
> use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar  
> to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always  
> sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.
>


In Film/Video and Motion Graphic field, there are two kinds of people: Real Artists and Commercial Artists. Generally we are all struggle between those two status because we want to become real artists but we also need money to survive. I agree that commercial stuff sometimes is really ugly.

I guess I am not what somebody called "musician" because I didn't learn much composition stuff. I saw many peoples project and I do envy their understanding of how to control the MIDI flow and other informations by using math and algorism. Until now I still can not write good music and build good patches like them so that's why I call my music "ugly"...... it is immature and need a lot of improvement.

I am neither musician nor audio guy, but I love film and music. Many of my friends in film/video production field doesn't really care much about sound design and music and that's not me....I hate video guy who doesn't care anything about sound. I still remember some words I saw in the film "The pursuit of Happiness"....."never let anybody tell you you can't do something...". Although I am very weak because of laking music composition background but I still don't want to give up. I know I can do something. Thank you for supporting me.

In Film/Video and Motion Graphic field, there are two kinds of people: Real Artists and Commercial Artists. Generally we are all struggle between those two status because we want to become real artists but we also need money to survive. I agree that commercial stuff sometimes is really ugly. 

I guess I am not what somebody called "musician" because I didn't learn much composition stuff. I saw many peoples project and I do envy their understanding of how to control the MIDI flow and other informations by using math and algorism. Until now I still can not write good music and build good patches like them so that's why I call my music "ugly"...... it is immature and need a lot of improvement. 

I am neither musician nor audio guy, but I love film and music. Many of my friends in film/video production field doesn't really care much about sound design and music and that's not me....I hate video guy who doesn't care anything about sound. I still remember some words I saw in the film  "The pursuit of Happiness"....."never let anybody tell you you can't do something...". Although I am very weak because of laking music composition background but I still don't want to give up. I know I can do something. Thank you for supporting me.


Quote: david stevens wrote on Sat, 21 April 2007 02:51

> There's two ways of playing your loops - sfplay~ and something based 

> on buffer~s. For what you want to do, I would use buffer~. You could 

How to make my MIDI music make sense?