11OLSEN

i wonder what is a realistic reproduction of a groovy drummer. im working on a little note repeat device and i can apply random time and velocity jitter. i think a drummer would have variations in his "notes" in a certain range but smaller variations may have a higher probabillity than bigger variations. by variation i do not mean that a drummer plays quiter and louder parts in a song, i mean the small discrepancy between single hits compared to the quantized timing and vel of a daw. what do you think? O.

human-drummer-veltime-jitter

I guess you could check this by inspecting some Midi files from the one of the myriad drum grooves out there played by real drummers. You could even do some statistical analysis to measure the extent of the jitter and how it varies across styles and drummers - there are probably papers on it somewhere.

Not quite what you're asking, but relevant, are some of the points in the .pdf linked to in this discussion:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/469080-seeking-midi-drum-groove-style-analysis-post.html

I guess you could check this by inspecting some Midi files from the one of the myriad drum grooves out there played by real drummers. You could even do some statistical analysis to measure the extent of the jitter and how it varies across styles and drummers - there are probably papers on it somewhere.
Not quite what you're asking, but relevant, are some of the points in the .pdf linked to in this discussion:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/469080-seeking-midi-drum-groove-style-analysis-post.html
Cheers
Roger


I would like a discussion on this topic as well. For swing I usually use the old delay the second bang trick. It is a bit boring after a while. It would be brilliant if you could apply the swing options or extracted swing from Ableton to sequences in M4L.

I run a secondary sequencer that controls the timing globally, so that I can do push-pull across an entire sequence, if I want.

that is cool wetterberg, human played drums will always have small variations in bar-length, that is maybe also an important factor.

@roger thanks. interessting pdf. so groove is one thing the other is human jitter. from the pdf : 

In addition to any 'pocket' or groove, any drummer's timing is slightly random. If your grooves sti

don't sound human enough, try varying the positioning of the hits by about a quarter of a 1/128th. 

so they also only recommend random jitter. hmmm my question was if this jitter will be really completely random. i think the drummer will have more nearly perfect hits then hits at the maximum of the jitter range. O.

that is cool wetterberg, human played drums will always have small variations in bar-length, that is maybe also an important factor. 

@roger thanks. interessting pdf. so groove is one thing the other is human jitter. from the pdf :  In addition to any 'pocket' or groove, any drummer's timing is slightly random. If your grooves still
don't sound human enough, try varying the positioning of the hits by about a quarter of a 1/128th. 
so they also only recommend random jitter. hmmm my question was if this jitter will be really completely random. i think the drummer will have more nearly perfect hits then hits at the maximum of the jitter range. O.


that may depend on the skill of the drummer. ;)

@grizzle no need for ableton to apply swing to anything. it's always every second time interval delayed at a certain amount. the ableton grooves are always applied to ALL notes in a clip. a real groove will differentiate between kick snare hihat,...if you still need the ableton grooves use notes in a clip to trigger your m4l sequencer steps OR find out how to read agr fileformat that ableton uses for grooves OR commit a groove to a clip of 16th, 32th or whatever notes and export midi files and use them as groove reference in m4l.O.

Btw, when it comes to rhythm, this stuff is really nice: 

http://smc.inescporto.pt/kinetic/?page_id=19

And whilst we're talking rhythms, a question that's been on my mind for a while; when trying to emulate 'real' drums, does polyphony matter?

When you hit a skin a couple of times quickly in succession, does the impact of the second beat dampen the decay of the first one, if not straight away, then fast enough to make polyphony redundant?

The reason I ask is I have a big old drum machine patch that I keep thinking I should make poly, but then I'm wondering if it's actually going to make the sound less, rather than more real - any thoughts?

Btw, when it comes to rhythm, this stuff is really nice: http://smc.inescporto.pt/kinetic/?page_id=19

And whilst we're talking rhythms, a question that's been on my mind for a while; when trying to emulate 'real' drums, does polyphony matter?
When you hit a skin a couple of times quickly in succession, does the impact of the second beat dampen the decay of the first one, if not straight away, then fast enough to make polyphony redundant?
 The reason I ask is I have a big old drum machine patch that I keep thinking I should make poly, but then I'm wondering if it's actually going to make the sound less, rather than more real - any thoughts?
Cheers
Roger


i definitely check that out. from reading the website it sounds really interessting. to the poly question, this came also to my mind several times. i was convinced that a new hit on a cymbal, snare,.. is completely creating a new oscillation of the batterhead/metal that is somehow canceling the old one but now i'm not shure anymore. maybe the old one is affecting the next, but if so then not in a way you could simulate it by simply mixing the new hit into the prev decay. would be cool to have real drums here to make some tests ;)

human drummer vel/time jitter