ingo

till now the only possible way to open a collective invisible i know, is to set it offscreen to either negative or positive space like -10000 -10000 -9900 -9900... 

this works fine on osx until max5. it was possible to do this invisible collectives on windows (max4.6) to make the collective-window floating and set it to negative coordinates (unattach them from the main application window, which would not be necessary with max5).

since max5 this does not work anymore, offscreen position of "fixed initial window location" are ignored and the patcher/collective opens onscreen.

is there any other way to load collecitves invisible? (why is it not possible to shroud them?)

till now the only possible way to open a collective invisible i know, is to set it offscreen to either negative or positive space like -10000 -10000 -9900 -9900... 
this works fine on osx until max5. it was possible to do this invisible collectives on windows (max4.6) to make the collective-window floating and set it to negative coordinates (unattach them from the main application window, which would not be necessary with max5).

invisible-collectives

> is there any other way to load collecitves invisible? (why is it not

Would you want them to load within another patch context? You could load 

Would be nice to know why you want them to be invisible...?

ingo randolf schrieb:
> is there any other way to load collecitves invisible? (why is it not
> possible to shroud them?)

Would you want them to load within another patch context? You could load 
them into a poly~ then...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


i use the invisble collectives in a plugin architecture. they are modules, which i can load/unload at startup (host is a max-application) with the advantage, that all the data for one module is packed together in one single file (so users dont have to care about folder-content/whatever)

the nice thing about this is, i just have to open the collectives, and have immediate access to the data inside without caring about paths.

i also tried making vsts, but it seems that they have a file-size limit, i pack audio-data with the modules, so this is not a solution.

another szenario would be, to pack all the data into a .jar and unpack the jars at runtime temporaly, erasing data when closing the program (or leave it for the next use..)

yeah, i also could make installer packages... but i like the format of a collective, its easy to make and handy to use.

i just tried to load a collective into poly~, without success...

i use the invisble collectives in a plugin architecture. they are modules, which i can load/unload at startup (host is a max-application) with the advantage, that all the data for one module is packed together in one single file (so users dont have to care about folder-content/whatever)
the nice thing about this is, i just have to open the collectives, and have immediate access to the data inside without caring about paths.

i really think invisible collectives are great! its just a good way to be able to distribute program-modules!

window-creation offscreen? (worked in 4.6 not in 5)

does not work:
window-creation offscreen? (worked in 4.6 not in 5)
shroud?
using them in object-boxes?
loading in a poly?

did you try with null dimensions for the window (x1=x2, y1=y2) ?

> i really think invisible collectives are great! its just a good way to be

> window-creation offscreen? (worked in 4.6 not in 5)

did you try with null dimensions for the window  (x1=x2, y1=y2) ?

>
> pushing up this topic...
>
>
> i really think invisible collectives are great! its just a good way to be
> able to distribute program-modules!
>
>
> does not work:
> window-creation offscreen? (worked in 4.6 not in 5)
> shroud?
> using them in object-boxes?
> loading in a poly?
>
>
> any ideas?
>
> thx
> io
>

> i really think invisible collectives are great! its just a good way

> to be able to distribute program-modules!

If you distribute them, they are visible anyway as files. Why do you 

If you make an objectbox invisible is this not invisible enough? (Or 

just don't include them in the presentation...)

My subpatchers don't open windows on their own...

I didn't get your "idea" maybe a better explanation of what you want to 

If you have concerns about hiding your patching secrets, collectives are 

neither save, nor an issue. I guess I share more patching knowledge than 

(Or in other words, I doubt that anybody would hassle to get your 

secrets out of one of your collectives, its easier to repatch...)

ingo randolf schrieb:
> i really think invisible collectives are great! its just a good way
> to be able to distribute program-modules!

If you distribute them, they are visible anyway as files. Why do you 
think its a good idea?
If you make an objectbox invisible is this not invisible enough? (Or 
just don't include them in the presentation...)
My subpatchers don't open windows on their own...

I didn't get your "idea" maybe a better explanation of what you want to 
do?...

If you have concerns about hiding your patching secrets, collectives are 
neither save, nor an issue. I guess I share more patching knowledge than 
you could hide away... ;-)
(Or in other words, I doubt that anybody would hassle to get your 
secrets out of one of your collectives, its easier to repatch...)

> If you distribute them, they are visible anyway as files. Why do you 

> If you make an objectbox invisible is this not invisible enough? (Or 

> just don't include them in the presentation...)

> My subpatchers don't open windows on their own...

the idea of this structure is to make plugins not holding only a patch, but more data (in this special case its audio-files and some metadata). so i have a host-application and plugins. the plugins are the collectives, of course i want to have them visible as files... maybe i am lacking something here, but i did not find a way to use collectives like patchers and create objectboxes holding the collectives...

vst sounds like that right? i found out (that was in max 5.6 didnt try this with max5, but propably its a vst-thing?) that vst-plugins somehow have a file-size limitation. the plugins/collectives we are creating are often more than 250MB... vsts limit i found was something like 14MB (?)

the collective-idea is not to hide some secrets away... collectives are just not designed to do that... its more to have a way to distribute modules as packages and not single files.

the problem sending the patcher-window offscreen on loadbang is, that it pops up shortly, because it is created onscreen... in max4.6 it was possible to _create_ the windows offscreen, so they dont pop up.

so actually it is something like a feature request to max5 to have this possibility again.

> If you distribute them, they are visible anyway as files. Why do you 
> think its a good idea?
> If you make an objectbox invisible is this not invisible enough? (Or 
> just don't include them in the presentation...)
> My subpatchers don't open windows on their own...

the problem sending the patcher-window offscreen on loadbang is, that it pops up shortly, because it is created onscreen... in max4.6 it was possible to _create_ the windows offscreen, so they dont pop up.
so actually it is something like a feature request to max5 to have this possibility again.

I would appreciate a hiding on load of collectives, too!

At the moment I am working at projects, inside which we use collectives to share bundled data and on load nobody wants to see the little popup items!

I would appreciate a hiding on load of collectives, too!
At the moment I am working at projects, inside which we use collectives to share bundled data and on load nobody wants to see the little popup items!


could you put nothing in presentation mode, set it to open in presentation, set it as a floating window and then the background alpha to 0?

> I would appreciate a hiding on load of collectives, too! At the

> moment I am working at projects, inside which we use collectives to

> share bundled data and on load nobody wants to see the little popup

Could you explain what you mean with popup items? I never got them in my 

life... If you just instantiate or script a collective, nothing pops up 

Johannes schrieb:
> I would appreciate a hiding on load of collectives, too! At the
> moment I am working at projects, inside which we use collectives to
> share bundled data and on load nobody wants to see the little popup
> items!

Could you explain what you mean with popup items? I never got them in my 
life... If you just instantiate or script a collective, nothing pops up 
for me...

just tried, the background-alpha does not affect the window-alpha... (at least here, max5.0.4 PPC)

so, also the collective is still visible...

----------------------------------------------------

> could you put nothing in presentation mode, set it to open in presentation, set it as a floating window and then the background alpha to 0?

just tried, the background-alpha does not affect the window-alpha... (at least here, max5.0.4 PPC)
so, also the collective is still visible...

----------------------------------------------------
> could you put nothing in presentation mode, set it to open in presentation, set it as a floating window and then the background alpha to 0?
>
> That would make it invisible.
----------------------------------------------------


The only windows that can be transparent are windows without title bars. Floating windows do not qualify because they have title bars (even though they are small). This is an OS limitation, not a Max limitation.

So as David says, add notitle to the flags also.

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 07:20

> Would be nice to know why you want them to be invisible...?

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 07:20
----------------------------------------------------
>
> Would be nice to know why you want them to be invisible...?
>

we use invisible collective as plugins, as i describe earlier... its quite convinient to distribute them as one single file and not as dozens of them...

as i pointed out before, vst was not a solution... although i would like to use this format (not vst building on max5 though...)... 

all in all it seems quite strange to open an invisible window to get access to some data... i would prefer to be able to shroud collectives... (or maybe this is the same thing as an invisble window?)

also loading collectives into a poly~ would be a nice, even better way to do this...

Quote: David Zicarelli wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 11:27

> The only windows that can be transparent are windows without title bars. Floating windows do not qualify because they have title bars (even though they are small). This is an OS limitation, not a Max limitation.

thank you very much!
that was, i was looking for...

we use invisible collective as plugins, as i describe earlier... its quite convinient to distribute them as one single file and not as dozens of them...
as i pointed out before, vst was not a solution... although i would like to use this format (not vst building on max5 though...)... 
all in all it seems quite strange to open an invisible window to get access to some data... i would prefer to be able to shroud collectives... (or maybe this is the same thing as an invisble window?)
also loading collectives into a poly~ would be a nice, even better way to do this...

Quote: David Zicarelli wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 11:27
----------------------------------------------------
> The only windows that can be transparent are windows without title bars. Floating windows do not qualify because they have title bars (even though they are small). This is an OS limitation, not a Max limitation.
>
> David Z.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


I'm interested in this for a different reason. I would like to build a window offscreen and then move it onscreen once all the elements are loaded. I've tried using both messages to thispatcher and setting the "Define Fixed Initial Window Location," but neither seem to work if you give it coordinates outside the area of your monitor. I've tried both negative numbers and extreme positive numbers. The closest I can get is to give a position of 1 1 1 1 which builds right at the corner of the monitor and then moves onscreen at the appropriate time.

Is it not possible to build a window offscreen?

I'm interested in this for a different reason.  I would like to build a window offscreen and then move it onscreen once all the elements are loaded.  I've tried using both messages to thispatcher and setting the "Define Fixed Initial Window Location," but neither seem to work if you give it coordinates outside the area of your monitor.  I've tried both negative numbers and extreme positive numbers.  The closest I can get is to give a position of 1 1 1 1 which builds right at the corner of the monitor and then moves onscreen at the appropriate time.

Is it not possible to build a window offscreen?


if you want to hide a window, check out the Javascript in Max documentation. Look at the 'visible' property of the Wind object.

if you want to hide a window, check out the Javascript in Max documentation.  Look at the 'visible' property of the Wind object.