Wetterberg

since this list is such a great resource for me I figured I'd ask here:

I am increasingly interested in the LED industry, esp. the appearance of 

LED walls, that aren't custom-built and cost a million.

Since I know that some of you have done work with these walls in the past;

What are the price-ranges for these things? Where should one source 

them? All I can find by googling are Shanghai factories (an option I 

haven't ruled out, by the way!) Any specific websites/manufacturers to 

Do all of them use VGA/DVI interfaces or at least some converter-boxes, 

What are the potential pitfalls by going the LED route instead of buying 

I really like the idea of having a visual rig that is somewhere 

inbetween fancy lighting and video, and I think a small LED system would 

since this list is such a great resource for me I figured I'd ask here:
I am increasingly interested in the LED industry, esp. the appearance of 
LED walls, that aren't custom-built and cost a million.

What are the price-ranges for these things? Where should one source 
them? All I can find by googling are Shanghai factories (an option I 
haven't ruled out, by the way!) Any specific websites/manufacturers to 
seek out/avoid?

Do all of them use VGA/DVI interfaces or at least some converter-boxes, 
so that writing to them is easy?

What are the potential pitfalls by going the LED route instead of buying 
really really expensive projectors?

I really like the idea of having a visual rig that is somewhere 
inbetween fancy lighting and video, and I think a small LED system would 
be soooo rad.

Cheers - and thanks for your input!
Andreas.


led-wall-displays

LED video is really going the way of modular

The real innovator and in my mind new leader of the field is Element 

the design of their systems is so much more elegent than previous 

generations ... lightweight, & easy to handle.

Usually led screens are leased not purchased. The only people that 

buy them are the rental houses, or as part of construction.

I can't speak much about actual pricing, but will soon as I am 

pricing a large display out for a client, but fairly certain that 

costs are getting lower steadily. Its still more expensive than 

projection but its starting to compete quite strongly. lighting 

designers seem to favor them over projection these days.

The real downside of LED video is resolution, typically 1 pixel per 

inch (and that is considered 'high resolution!" so building a 'small 

one' as you describe means you might be working with thumbnail size 

video on your screen - 'full resolution' requires alot of real estate 

- but thats really the point - to go big and bright. of course who 

says you have to do video. I saw a beautiful installation today that 

used element labs 'versatubes' and had a generative color pattern 

design. Think Dan Flavin on steroids. this would indicate to me 

that if this particular artist made it happen, than it is an 

> since this list is such a great resource for me I figured I'd ask 

> I am increasingly interested in the LED industry, esp. the 

> appearance of LED walls, that aren't custom-built and cost a million.

> Since I know that some of you have done work with these walls in 

> What are the price-ranges for these things? Where should one source 

> them? All I can find by googling are Shanghai factories (an option 

> I haven't ruled out, by the way!) Any specific websites/ 

> Do all of them use VGA/DVI interfaces or at least some converter- 

> boxes, so that writing to them is easy?

> What are the potential pitfalls by going the LED route instead of 

> buying really really expensive projectors?

> I really like the idea of having a visual rig that is somewhere 

> inbetween fancy lighting and video, and I think a small LED system 

The real innovator and in my mind new leader of the field is Element  
Labs
http://elementlabs.com/
the design of their systems is so much more elegent than previous  
generations ... lightweight, & easy to handle.

Usually led screens are leased not purchased.  The only people that  
buy them are the rental houses, or as part of construction.
I can't speak much about actual pricing, but will soon as I am  
pricing a large display out for a client, but fairly certain that  
costs are getting lower  steadily. Its still more expensive than  
projection but its starting to compete quite strongly.  lighting  
designers seem to favor them over projection these days.

The real downside of LED video is resolution, typically 1 pixel per  
inch (and that is considered 'high resolution!"  so building a 'small  
one' as you describe means you might be working with thumbnail size  
video on your screen - 'full resolution' requires alot of real estate  
- but thats really the point - to go big and bright.  of course who  
says you have to do video.  I saw a beautiful installation today that  
used element labs 'versatubes' and had a generative color pattern  
design.  Think Dan Flavin on steroids.  this would indicate to me  
that if this particular artist made it happen, than it is an  
attainable goal.

> Hi all,
>
> since this list is such a great resource for me I figured I'd ask  
> here:
> I am increasingly interested in the LED industry, esp. the  
> appearance of LED walls, that aren't custom-built and cost a million.
>
> Since I know that some of you have done work with these walls in  
> the past;
>
> What are the price-ranges for these things? Where should one source  
> them? All I can find by googling are Shanghai factories (an option  
> I haven't ruled out, by the way!) Any specific websites/ 
> manufacturers to seek out/avoid?
>
> Do all of them use VGA/DVI interfaces or at least some converter- 
> boxes, so that writing to them is easy?
>
> What are the potential pitfalls by going the LED route instead of  
> buying really really expensive projectors?
>
> I really like the idea of having a visual rig that is somewhere  
> inbetween fancy lighting and video, and I think a small LED system  
> would be soooo rad.
>
> Cheers - and thanks for your input!
> Andreas.
>
>


Hello deKam, thank you for the prompt response!

> LED video is really going the way of modular

> The real innovator and in my mind new leader of the field is Element Labs

> the design of their systems is so much more elegent than previous 

> generations ... lightweight, & easy to handle.

Very slick stuff in that website - thanks for the link!

> Usually led screens are leased not purchased. The only people that 

> buy them are the rental houses, or as part of construction.

> I can't speak much about actual pricing, but will soon as I am pricing 

> a large display out for a client, but fairly certain that costs are 

> getting lower steadily. Its still more expensive than projection but 

> its starting to compete quite strongly. lighting designers seem to 

> The real downside of LED video is resolution, typically 1 pixel per 

> inch (and that is considered 'high resolution!" so building a 'small 

> one' as you describe means you might be working with thumbnail size 

> video on your screen - 'full resolution' requires alot of real estate 

> - but thats really the point - to go big and bright. 

I am starting to find links to manufacturers building displays with a 

pitch of between 12mm and 3.1mm - making the LED wall thing a lot more 

> of course who says you have to do video. I saw a beautiful 

> installation today that used element labs 'versatubes' and had a 

> generative color pattern design. Think Dan Flavin on steroids. this 

> would indicate to me that if this particular artist made it happen, 

Absolutely! The Speed of Light video for Coldplay was an excellent 

example of the VersaTube technology in a very large array. For our 

needs, and indeed for the work I hope to be doing with such a system it 

would be very small scale - I am thinking of panels that are 3x1 meter. 

That could still give me a resolution of roughly 270.000 pixels 

(300x900), which is plenty to go beyond the "Atari-art" stage - I would 

need that, since a specific solution such as a VersaTube rig will not be 

all that useful for *every* event you do.

dekam skrev:
> LED video is really going the way of modular
>
> The real innovator and in my mind new leader of the field is Element Labs
> http://elementlabs.com/
> the design of their systems is so much more elegent than previous 
> generations ... lightweight, & easy to handle.
Very slick stuff in that website - thanks for the link!
>
> Usually led screens are leased not purchased.  The only people that 
> buy them are the rental houses, or as part of construction.
> I can't speak much about actual pricing, but will soon as I am pricing 
> a large display out for a client, but fairly certain that costs are 
> getting lower  steadily. Its still more expensive than projection but 
> its starting to compete quite strongly.  lighting designers seem to 
> favor them over projection these days.
>
> The real downside of LED video is resolution, typically 1 pixel per 
> inch (and that is considered 'high resolution!"  so building a 'small 
> one' as you describe means you might be working with thumbnail size 
> video on your screen - 'full resolution' requires alot of real estate 
> - but thats really the point - to go big and bright.  
I am starting to find links to manufacturers building displays with a 
pitch of between 12mm and 3.1mm - making the LED wall thing a lot more 
classy at smaller scales.
> of course who says you have to do video.  I saw a beautiful 
> installation today that used element labs 'versatubes' and had a 
> generative color pattern design.  Think Dan Flavin on steroids.  this 
> would indicate to me that if this particular artist made it happen, 
> than it is an attainable goal. 
Absolutely! The Speed of Light video for Coldplay was an excellent 
example of the VersaTube technology in a very large array. For our 
needs, and indeed for the work I hope to be doing with such a system it 
would be very small scale - I am thinking of panels that are 3x1 meter. 
That could still give me a resolution of roughly 270.000 pixels 
(300x900), which is plenty to go beyond the "Atari-art" stage - I would 
need that, since a specific solution such as a VersaTube rig will not be 
all that useful for *every* event you do.

> good questions: i started researching these things for a project two 

> years ago and I was quickly stopped by the first price quotes; the 

> prices I found at the time ranged around 4K euro's per book-sized tile.

> At the time I alsof found transparent led-tiles (leds in glass, 

> transparent when off, super cool) but that was about 2K euro's per 

You will be pleased to hear that the world of anything-LED has changed 

*dramatically* in the last few years! Not 3-4 years ago an ultrabright 

5mm white LED would cost you a fortune. Now they stick them in any old 

> I guess a mayor pitfall is weight: these things are heavy like a brick 

> for instance Barco makes them but i suppose the Shanghai route could 

I would reckon so, yes! The size/weight issue is helped a lot by the 

fact that the systems are indeed modular, typically 320*160 mm from what 

I've read, and can even be supplied in flightcases, and since the price 

has gone down the use has spread to advertising, requiring both 

low-profile constructions for wall-mounting, and lower weight, in order 

to facilitate use in displays for boothes at fairs and so on.

> perhaps things changed or perhaps I didn't look in the right place: 

> i'm curious to hear other's responses...

> What you describe would be great indeed, especially since these 

Right on. Even a small LED segment for a low stage placement combined 

with video projection will be a radical addition to any visual rig. They 

could even replace the lovely old favourite, the floodlights.

Joost Rekveld skrev:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> good questions: i started researching these things for a project two 
> years ago and I was quickly stopped by the first price quotes; the 
> prices I found at the time ranged  around 4K euro's per book-sized tile.
> At the time I alsof found transparent led-tiles (leds in glass, 
> transparent when off, super cool) but that was about 2K euro's per 
> tile RENTAL.
> I was amazed...
You will be pleased to hear that the world of anything-LED has changed 
*dramatically* in the last few years! Not 3-4 years ago an ultrabright 
5mm white LED would cost you a fortune. Now they stick them in any old 
toy gizmo.
>
> I guess a mayor pitfall is weight: these things are heavy like a brick 
> wall !
>
> for instance Barco makes them but i suppose the Shanghai route could 
> be cheaper...
I would reckon so, yes! The size/weight issue is helped a lot by the 
fact that the systems are indeed modular, typically 320*160 mm from what 
I've read, and can even be supplied in flightcases, and since the price 
has gone down the use has spread to advertising, requiring both 
low-profile constructions for wall-mounting, and lower weight, in order 
to facilitate use in displays for boothes at fairs and so on.
> perhaps things changed or perhaps I didn't look in the right place: 
> i'm curious to hear other's responses...
> What you describe would be great indeed, especially since these 
> led-walls are so bright !
>
Right on. Even a small LED segment for a low stage placement combined 
with video projection will be a radical addition to any visual rig. They 
could even replace the lovely old favourite, the floodlights.
Andreas.


Artistically, does anyone else forsee RGB-LEDs going the way of 

neon,black light, plasma lamps, glow in the dark junk etc, laser 

light shows? just something that becomes so common place that it 

I dont mean to be pompous... my recording facility was 4 years ahead 

of the LED craze with color kinetic's MR16 lamps..... but now I'm 

just wondering. I'm getting kind of sick of soft architecture.

Artistically, does anyone else forsee RGB-LEDs going the way of  
neon,black light, plasma lamps, glow in the dark junk etc, laser  
light shows?  just something that becomes so common place that it  
almost becomes ugly?

I dont mean to be pompous...  my recording facility was 4 years ahead  
of the LED craze with color kinetic's MR16 lamps.....    but now I'm  
almost ashamed of them.

At the Blip festival in NYC they had some very nice RGB leds in the 

background. Nothing full resolution NTCS, much lower, but it was lovely.

I dont mind neon, lazers, or glow in the dark junk, if its done 

nicely, is well thought out. With the right person designing, you can 

On Jan 20, 2007, at 9:05 PM, matthew aidekman wrote:

> Artistically, does anyone else forsee RGB-LEDs going the way of 

> neon,black light, plasma lamps, glow in the dark junk etc, laser 

> light shows? just something that becomes so common place that it 

> I dont mean to be pompous... my recording facility was 4 years 

> ahead of the LED craze with color kinetic's MR16 lamps..... but 

> just wondering. I'm getting kind of sick of soft architecture.

At the Blip festival in NYC they had some very nice RGB leds in the  
background. Nothing full resolution NTCS, much lower, but it was lovely.

I dont mind neon, lazers, or glow in the dark junk, if its done  
nicely, is well thought out. With the right person designing, you can  
turn anything into complete shit.

> Artistically, does anyone else forsee RGB-LEDs going the way of  
> neon,black light, plasma lamps, glow in the dark junk etc, laser  
> light shows?  just something that becomes so common place that it  
> almost becomes ugly?
>
> I dont mean to be pompous...  my recording facility was 4 years  
> ahead of the LED craze with color kinetic's MR16 lamps.....    but  
> now I'm almost ashamed of them.
>
> just wondering. I'm getting kind of sick of soft architecture.
>
> -matt

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/pixelpusher/barcellona-185.jpg

a friend said this led surface can carry a small truck. it looks like versa

> At the Blip festival in NYC they had some very nice RGB leds in the

> background. Nothing full resolution NTCS, much lower, but it was lovely.

> I dont mind neon, lazers, or glow in the dark junk, if its done nicely, is

> well thought out. With the right person designing, you can turn anything

> On Jan 20, 2007, at 9:05 PM, matthew aidekman wrote:

> Artistically, does anyone else forsee RGB-LEDs going the way of neon,black

> light, plasma lamps, glow in the dark junk etc, laser light shows? just

> something that becomes so common place that it almost becomes ugly?

> I dont mean to be pompous... my recording facility was 4 years ahead of

> the LED craze with color kinetic's MR16 lamps..... but now I'm almost

does anybody know who makes this?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/pixelpusher/barcellona-185.jpg
a friend said this led surface can carry a small truck. it looks like versa
tiles but im not sure.
it was taken from a george michal tour.
On 1/21/07, vade  wrote:
>
> At the Blip festival in NYC they had some very nice RGB leds in the
> background. Nothing full resolution NTCS, much lower, but it was lovely.
> I dont mind neon, lazers, or glow in the dark junk, if its done nicely, is
> well thought out. With the right person designing, you can turn anything
> into complete shit.
>
> Ive tried, it works! :)
>
> On Jan 20, 2007, at 9:05 PM, matthew aidekman wrote:
>
> Artistically, does anyone else forsee RGB-LEDs going the way of neon,black
> light, plasma lamps, glow in the dark junk etc, laser light shows?  just
> something that becomes so common place that it almost becomes ugly?
>
> I dont mean to be pompous...  my recording facility was 4 years ahead of
> the LED craze with color kinetic's MR16 lamps.....    but now I'm almost
> ashamed of them.
>
> just wondering. I'm getting kind of sick of soft architecture.
>
> -matt
>
>
> *v a d e //*
>
> *www.vade.info*
> *abstrakt.vade.info*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Sat, 20 January 2007 14:56

----------------------------------------------------

> inbetween fancy lighting and video, and I think a small LED system would 

actually this is what I'm doing, even if my system goes way more into the "fancy lighting" direction than into video.

I use 6 of these fixtures in a matrix configuration:

http://www.alkalite.com/main/product/html/product_intro2.php?main_cid=&cid=16&pid=29&type=

Using these I have a Rig that is highly transportable (fits into two large Trolleys), very affordable (compared to the common LED Videoscreen Solutions available this is beneath Low-Cost), and very BRIGHT.

These lamps ARE bright, you can seriously blind the audience and they can illuminate the whole venue (uo to 500-1000 people)

All six draw only 700W max, which is ridiculous when you compare it to what you get with 700W out of ONE Par64!

Having a total Resolution of either 8x6 or 12x4 Pixels this is not "Video" but it's at least "graphical" and it looks gorgeous. At least People tend to react quite impressed...

Here's a short clip, showing only 3 of 6 Panels in a 4x6 Pixel configuration:

http://www.klub-el-paradiso.de/videos/spektrakufa.mov

Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Sat, 20 January 2007 14:56
----------------------------------------------------

> I really like the idea of having a visual rig that is somewhere 
> inbetween fancy lighting and video, and I think a small LED system would 
> be soooo rad.
----------------------------------------------------

I use 6 of these fixtures in a matrix configuration:
http://www.alkalite.com/main/product/html/product_intro2.php?main_cid=&cid=16&pid=29&type=
(same: Showtec Led Pixel Wash)

Using these I have a Rig that is highly transportable (fits into two large Trolleys), very affordable (compared to the common LED Videoscreen Solutions available this is beneath Low-Cost), and very BRIGHT.
These lamps ARE bright, you can seriously blind the audience and they can illuminate the whole venue (uo to 500-1000 people)
All six draw only 700W max, which is ridiculous when you compare it to what you get with 700W out of ONE Par64!

Here's a short clip, showing only 3 of 6 Panels in a 4x6 Pixel configuration:
http://www.klub-el-paradiso.de/videos/spektrakufa.mov
(ignore the music!)

> actually this is what I'm doing, even if my system goes way more into the "fancy lighting" direction than into video.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with this - Ideally I want 

to land squarely in-between the two - relatively high pixel count, but 

stretched over a larger area so as to, in a sense, provide both the 

> Having a total Resolution of either 8x6 or 12x4 Pixels this is not "Video" but it's at least "graphical" and it looks gorgeous. At least People tend to react quite impressed...

> Here's a short clip, showing only 3 of 6 Panels in a 4x6 Pixel configuration:

That's great! How much does such a system cost, if you don't mind me asking? 8x6?

The cheapest 8x8 solution that I could find in that sort of setup cost 3728 euro without controller.. that's quite steep, I think, even for washes.

http://www.americandj.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1634&cat=L.E.D.

, which looks nice and portable, but not neccesarily all that high-end.

The search continues - I hope it doesn't end in Shanghai...

k.e.p. skrev:
> actually this is what I'm doing, even if my system goes way more into the "fancy lighting" direction than into video.
>
I can definitely see where you're coming from with this - Ideally I want 
to land squarely in-between the two - relatively high pixel count, but 
stretched over a larger area so as to, in a sense, provide both the 
abstract "fancy lighting" and video.
> ...
> Having a total Resolution of either 8x6 or 12x4 Pixels this is not "Video" but it's at least "graphical" and it looks gorgeous. At least People tend to react quite impressed...
>
> Here's a short clip, showing only 3 of 6 Panels in a 4x6 Pixel configuration:
> http://www.klub-el-paradiso.de/videos/spektrakufa.mov
That's great! How much does such a system cost, if you don't mind me asking? 8x6?
The cheapest 8x8 solution that I could find in that sort of setup cost 3728 euro without controller.. that's quite steep, I think, even for washes.

I did find this:
http://www.americandj.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1634&cat=L.E.D.
, which looks nice and portable, but not neccesarily all that high-end.

The search continues - I hope it doesn't end in Shanghai...
Andreas.


LED wall displays?