Mark Hill

I am a new max/jitter owner, and for the life of me I can't find (in

the archives) the answer to my question - for max/msp and jitter used

in a live situ, which system config is optimal w.r.t OS (most

I am currently running on a desktop 3Ghz P4, Geforce 6200, 2GB Ram,

but am considering getting a laptop for the task.

Tell me, which is more stable - the Macintosh version or the wintel

version, for running Max/msp and Jitter? I'd love to get an Apple

I am beginning to understand the '74 reference .. that was the last

I am a new max/jitter owner, and for the life of me I can't find (in
the archives) the answer to my question - for max/msp and jitter used
in a live situ, which system config is optimal w.r.t OS (most
importantly), CPU, display, drivers etc.

I am currently running on a desktop 3Ghz P4, Geforce 6200, 2GB Ram,
Audigy2, XP Pro.

Tell me, which is more stable - the Macintosh version or the wintel
version, for running Max/msp and Jitter?  I'd love to get an Apple
laptop I must admit.

I am beginning to understand the '74 reference .. that was the last
update, right?

noobie-which-platform

this is a difficult question to answer without a bit more context.

in general graphics hardware is faster on pcs. adam kendall will 

tell you that jitter works like a dream on wintel laptops. not sure 

i consider the hassle of maintaining a personal windows machine to be 

a major deterrent for moving away from the macintosh platform, 

lastly, you should take that crack about updates back. do you have 

in general graphics hardware is faster on pcs.  adam kendall will  
tell you that jitter works like a dream on wintel laptops.  not sure  
which model he has.

i consider the hassle of maintaining a personal windows machine to be  
a major deterrent for moving away from the macintosh platform,  
efficiency or no.

lastly, you should take that crack about updates back.  do you have  
any idea what you're talking about?


Thanks Joshua, yeah I guess that was a little bitter.. I'm at 4.5.5 PC

(July 05). But I still get the feeling that cyc74 development has

somehow shut down. All the "reference" web site are 404, etc etc.

Maybe it's the poor forum support (get a real forum, thank you),,)

I bit the bullet and got a G4 laptop 2GB, was this folly?

Thanks Joshua, yeah I guess that was a little bitter.. I'm at 4.5.5 PC
(July 05). But I still get the feeling that cyc74 development has
somehow shut down. All the "reference" web site are 404, etc etc.

Maybe it's the poor forum support (get a real forum, thank you),,)
Very hard to browse.

> I bit the bullet and got a G4 laptop 2GB, was this folly?

A new G4 with 2G of ram? I hope you got one of the new ones with

the extra pixels. I was skeptical, but the screen really makes my 

That's way better than most jitter visual maestros have.

You should be set for a while, I've had my 12'' 1ghz pbg4 for 2 years 

of course I'm a code monkey and 12'' is plenty wide to see 80 

I run out of realestate pretty quick in Live or Logic.

Jitter on a pbG4 with plenty of RAM and 10.4.2+ is pretty choice.

Chances are, if your patch is slow you could probably do better with

cutting some of the fat, or figuring out where your sucky algorithm is.

> Thanks Joshua, yeah I guess that was a little bitter.. I'm at 4.5.5 PC

> (July 05). But I still get the feeling that cyc74 development has

> somehow shut down. All the "reference" web site are 404, etc etc.

Cycling has by no means shut down development.

Hell, apple releases an update every 3 or 4 months,

Unless you've got a laundry list of bugs, chill out about the updates.

> Maybe it's the poor forum support (get a real forum, thank you),,)

I belong to many mailing lists and help forums and I'd say this one is

hands down the nicest, thanks to the community.

This is just not a wham-bam-thankyou-ma'am style help forum.

Thanks everybody for keeping this mail list a page turner.

I just love grabbing some of these crazy patchers posted here,

and remixes of crazy patchers... never thought to remix someone else's

A new G4 with 2G of ram?  I hope you got one of the new ones with
the extra pixels.  I was skeptical, but the screen really makes my  
jaw drop.

That's way better than most jitter visual maestros have.
You should be set for a while, I've had my 12'' 1ghz pbg4 for 2 years  
and still love it...
of course I'm a code monkey and 12'' is plenty wide to see 80  
characters in emacs.
I run out of realestate pretty quick in Live or Logic.

Jitter on a pbG4 with plenty of RAM and 10.4.2+ is pretty choice.
Chances are, if your patch is slow you could probably do better with
cutting some of the fat, or figuring out where your sucky algorithm is.

> Thanks Joshua, yeah I guess that was a little bitter.. I'm at 4.5.5 PC
> (July 05). But I still get the feeling that cyc74 development has
> somehow shut down. All the "reference" web site are 404, etc etc.

Cycling has by no means shut down development.
Hell, apple releases an update every 3 or 4 months,
that's considered pretty aggressive.

> Maybe it's the poor forum support (get a real forum, thank you),,)
> Very hard to browse.

I belong to many mailing lists and help forums and I'd say this one is
hands down the nicest, thanks to the community.
This is just not a wham-bam-thankyou-ma'am style help forum.

I just love grabbing some of these crazy patchers posted here,
and remixes of crazy patchers... never thought to remix someone else's
code before :)

You're complaining about this user-support forum while coming here for help.

Geez. It *is* hard to browse when searching, but you're a new person here

and you're griping. Hang out for a while first.

Development shut down? But they're already working on 4.5.6... They

release incremental upgrades to indivisuals with specific problems...

Cycling74 is a very responsive software company. The website is often out

of date, but spend a few days on this list, you'll get the idea.

Depending on what you want to do with Jitter, PC's *can* be substantially

better. The processor clock is important, so a 3.xGhz XP laptop will likely

perform better than a lower-clockrate Mac. Alot of RAM can help, but a

good, upgradeable video card is important, as is a high-RPM disk.

There are Jitter features missing in XP compared to Mac.

In my experience, a 3.2Ghz P4 is about twice as powerful for Jitter than a

1.6Ghz G4; 1.6 times as powerful as a 2Ghz G4. Other people's results vary

It's becoming harder to find PC laptops with high clock rates. Without the

high clock rates, I'm not sure XP is any better than Mac. I don't think

Dell makes 3.x P4 laptops anymore. Maybe Alienware or Sager, I don't know.

But, in my opinion -- Yes, your Mac purchase was a folly.

You're complaining about this user-support forum while coming here for help.
Geez.  It *is* hard to browse when searching, but you're a new person here
and you're griping.  Hang out for a while first.

Development shut down?  But they're already working on 4.5.6...  They
release incremental upgrades to indivisuals with specific problems...

Cycling74 is a very responsive software company.  The website is often out
of date, but spend a few days on this list, you'll get the idea.

Depending on what you want to do with Jitter, PC's *can* be substantially
better.  The processor clock is important, so a 3.xGhz XP laptop will likely
perform better than a lower-clockrate Mac.  Alot of RAM can help, but a
good, upgradeable video card is important, as is a high-RPM disk.

In my experience, a 3.2Ghz P4 is about twice as powerful for Jitter than a
1.6Ghz G4; 1.6 times as powerful as a 2Ghz G4.  Other people's results vary
depending on how they work.

It's becoming harder to find PC laptops with high clock rates.  Without the
high clock rates, I'm not sure XP is any better than Mac.  I don't think
Dell makes 3.x P4 laptops anymore.  Maybe Alienware or Sager, I don't know.

> I'd love to get an Apple laptop I must admit.

Go for it, I always get headaches with PCs...

I am Live on Apple since my first computer

(Well, to be honest, it was only an Apple II compatible one, and I was 

basically using the built in Z-80 with Turbopascal)

Though its claimed especially for Jitter that PCs are faster, but by the 

time you reach the limits of your Powerbook (In terms of time to build 

up very complex patches as a 'Noobie') There are new ones out which are 

probably faster than you can fill it with tasks to turn them down.

Who ever starts now must be in heaven, compared to those Apple II times,

[][] [][][] [][] [][][] [][] [][][] [][] [][][]

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

14, Av. Pr. Franklin Roosevelt, 94320 Thiais, France

Mark Hill wrote:
> I'd love to get an Apple laptop I must admit.

I am Live on Apple since my first computer
(Well, to be honest, it was only an Apple II compatible one, and I was 
basically using the built in Z-80 with Turbopascal)

Though its claimed especially for Jitter that PCs are faster, but by the 
time you reach the limits of your Powerbook (In terms of time to build 
up very complex patches as a 'Noobie') There are new ones out which are 
probably faster than you can fill it with tasks to turn them down.

Who ever starts now must be in heaven, compared to those Apple II times,
when I started...

  [][]  [][][]  [][]  [][][]  [][]  [][][]  [][]  [][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

         Stefan Tiedje
         Klanggestalter
     Electronic Composition
               &
         Improvisation

            /~~~~~
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     ))))) )|  |  |( \
     ///     _/)/ )))))
             ___/   ///

-------------------------x---
--_____-----------|----------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()---
-- _|_)----|-----()----------
----------()------------x----

14, Av. Pr. Franklin Roosevelt, 94320 Thiais, France
Phone at CCMIX   +33-1-49 77 51 72


I humbly disagree. I started Max/MSP/Jitter with a 1Ghz TiBook (OS9). Was

the fastest Apple laptop at the time. It couldn't properly handle my first

project, and the new Appple laptops can't handle my current projects. My PC

drops below 15fps, but at least it's still in the realm of usable -- Apple

laptops would be down to a couple of fps. One man's experience.

I humbly disagree.  I started Max/MSP/Jitter with a 1Ghz TiBook (OS9).  Was
the fastest Apple laptop at the time.  It couldn't properly handle my first
project, and the new Appple laptops can't handle my current projects.  My PC
drops below 15fps, but at least it's still in the realm of usable -- Apple
laptops would be down to a couple of fps.   One man's experience.

On Nov 15, 2005, at 6:49 AM, Stefan Tiedje wrote:

>> I'd love to get an Apple laptop I must admit.

> Go for it, I always get headaches with PCs...

my XPerience has been mostly lousy, comforted by the adage "you get 

what you pay for." Of course I never bought one of those super pricey 

apple lappers with the peeling paint or broken hinges.

But, I digress. The XP, when it performs, is very nice, as it is my 

fastest computer. But its piecemeal construction has caused me 

headaches (not an inherent flaw of XP, obviously, but w/ apples, for 

better or worse, you are certainly protected from engaging in such a 

project). The constant wrangling of drivers is hell. The XP interface 

treats me like a child, and I resent it. Pardon my Urdu, but who the 

fuck wants to watch a fucking cartoon dog while you are searching for a 

document? Oh, and if you click it, it plays. Cute. Fuck.

Ultimately, my mind was made up that I hate my XP box because I did a 

show w/ it, and it failed. I had a number of firewire webcams attached 

and working at home. I then broke down, went to a new zip code, and 

put everything back together, and those webcams no longer worked. 

On OS X, i never had a problem working w/ the cameras, and I've never 

had such a dramatic example of things working one hour, then not 

Ultimately, your great folly is making a move, then asking if it's the 

> Mark Hill wrote:
>> I'd love to get an Apple laptop I must admit.
>
> Go for it, I always get headaches with PCs...
>

my XPerience has been mostly lousy, comforted by the adage "you get 
what you pay for."  Of course I never bought one of those super pricey 
apple lappers with the peeling paint or broken hinges.
But, I digress.  The XP, when it performs, is very nice, as it is my 
fastest computer.  But its piecemeal construction has caused me 
headaches (not an inherent flaw of XP, obviously, but w/ apples, for 
better or worse, you are certainly protected from engaging in such a 
project).  The constant wrangling of drivers is hell.  The XP interface 
treats me like a child, and I resent it.  Pardon my Urdu, but who the 
fuck wants to watch a fucking cartoon dog while you are searching for a 
document?  Oh, and if you click it, it plays.  Cute.  Fuck.
Ultimately, my mind was made up that I hate my XP box because I did a 
show w/ it, and it failed.  I had a number of firewire webcams attached 
and working at home.  I then broke down, went to a new zip code, and 
put everything back together, and those webcams no longer worked.  
Great.
On OS X, i never had a problem working w/ the cameras, and I've never 
had such a dramatic example of things working one hour, then not 
working later.

Ultimately, your great folly is making a move, then asking if it's the 
right one after the fact! :)

+===+===+===+===+===+===+
The Pegu Club Cocktail
	3 parts gin
	1 part lime juice
	1 part Cointreau
	3 dashes Angostura bitters
Shake with ice and serve
in a chilled cocktail glass
+===+===+===+===+===+===+


I agree that, out of the box, XP is patronizing in unbelievable ways. I

don't personally find XP that much more patronizing than OSX.

You know you can turn off alot of the XP interface stuff, right? I don't

have any specific articles, but they're around. Once you learn where all

the options are, it takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes to get rid many of the

annoying interface issues and make the OS feel more professional.

My XP setup looks just like NT, which is a reasonably ok OS interface.

I'm either lucky or have the right machine or have paid my dues with XP, but

my hardware and driver issues are only marginally more problematic than my

Apple experiences. I do have some crazy things happen in XP, but often it's

because of third party software, or it's bad in one way while Apple is bad

I don't really care about platforms or machines as much as my emails make it

sound. I defend XP so much because I feel strongly that machines are tools

and people need to be objective about what works for them or not. I think

many people assume one platform is better or worse without doing their

I understand that you're talking from XPerience.

I agree that, out of the box, XP is patronizing in unbelievable ways.  I
don't personally find XP that much more patronizing than OSX.

You know you can turn off alot of the XP interface stuff, right?  I don't
have any specific articles, but they're around.  Once you learn where all
the options are, it takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes to get rid many of the
annoying interface issues and make the OS feel more professional.

I'm either lucky or have the right machine or have paid my dues with XP, but
my hardware and driver issues are only marginally more problematic than my
Apple experiences.  I do have some crazy things happen in XP, but often it's
because of third party software, or it's bad in one way while Apple is bad
in another.  

I don't really care about platforms or machines as much as my emails make it
sound.  I defend XP so much because I feel strongly that machines are tools
and people need to be objective about what works for them or not.  I think
many people assume one platform is better or worse without doing their
homework.

Peter, I agree it was sorta out-of-order, buying a G4 then asking the

What got me started was an email from Cycling touting their beginner

workshop in SF in January. Laptop, hmmm... Went to Dell's site, saw

some goodies there, then to Apples' and wow, those Powerbooks really

sizzle for me. So, since I've got multi wintel desktops, I decided to

Anyway, I'm going to give OSX a try and if that doesn't work out,

I imagine there will be lots of study/mistakes/questions along the way.

Like one poster said, the list here is a good one. I am beginning to see that.

Peter, I agree it was sorta out-of-order, buying a G4 then asking the
question Which?...

What got me started was an email from Cycling touting their beginner
workshop in SF in January. Laptop, hmmm... Went to Dell's site, saw
some goodies there, then to Apples' and wow, those Powerbooks really
sizzle for me. So, since I've got multi wintel desktops, I decided to
over-invest in something else.. ;-)

Anyway, I'm going to give OSX a try and if that doesn't work out,
perhaps I'll try it on XP.

Well, resale value on powerbooks is really good, so even if you change 

Well, resale value on powerbooks is really good, so even if you change  
your mind you're not hosed.

Well, I guess I didn't really know of which spoke. It does appear that

updates do get released, so I retract the crack...

Well, I guess I didn't really know of which spoke. It does appear that
updates do get released, so I retract the crack...

> the options are, it takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes to get rid many of the

> annoying interface issues and make the OS feel more professional.

The complete time of course is learning + changing. Changing the stuff 

certainly is fast, though if you know where to change and still need 5 - 

How long did it take you for learning it? Just curious.

> I don't really care about platforms or machines as much as my emails make it

> sound. I defend XP so much because I feel strongly that machines are tools

> and people need to be objective about what works for them or not. I think

> many people assume one platform is better or worse without doing their

I completely agree. Homework will only be done if there is a strong need 

for. If you know one OS, there is rarly enough need to learn another to 

the same level of depth. Same is true for any software. Why learn Word 

if you know Lyx, though I believe anybody who knows Word wouldn't 

believe how much easier life could be with Lyx... (And how much better 

Adam Kendall wrote:
> Once you learn where all
> the options are, it takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes to get rid many of the
> annoying interface issues and make the OS feel more professional.

The complete time of course is learning + changing. Changing the stuff 
certainly is fast, though if you know where to change and still need 5 - 
10 minutes...
How long did it take you for learning it? Just curious.

> I don't really care about platforms or machines as much as my emails make it
> sound.  I defend XP so much because I feel strongly that machines are tools
> and people need to be objective about what works for them or not.  I think
> many people assume one platform is better or worse without doing their
> homework.

I completely agree. Homework will only be done if there is a strong need 
for. If you know one OS, there is rarly enough need to learn another to 
the same level of depth. Same is true for any software. Why learn Word 
if you know Lyx, though I believe anybody who knows Word wouldn't 
believe how much easier life could be with Lyx... (And how much better 
the results look like)

Hi there. My name is Francisco and I am a composer and Max-MSP addict

This is my question: You are talking about OS (Mac versus PC) . I'll buy a

new Imac G5 1.9 Ghz , 1.5 Gb of RAM. Anybody has any experience whit

Hi there. My name is Francisco and I am a composer and Max-MSP addict
from Argentina.

This is my question: You are talking about OS (Mac versus PC) . I'll buy a
new Imac G5 1.9 Ghz , 1.5 Gb of RAM. Anybody has any experience whit
this machine and Max-MSP-Jitter ?

It's worth mentioning that although Apple doesn't specify, their total FSB speed is approx 333mhz, 

because total FSB-speeds are dependant on the number of individual buses. In the case of the G4 

this is 2... but, they don't give that much info out in their documentation (not that Intel does...).

--------------------------------------------------

Noobie - Which platform?