paramind

There is a very interesting type of sequencer that is built on intervals. For instance, you have the digits from 1-10....1-9 are

intervals between steps, and 0's are rests. You can have something like 167 steps which then repeat. The most important thing however is that this sequencer is triggered from the keyboard. I have been using this technique since 1983 and it has given me great results in composing music. I would like to bring it to the MIDI age and I'm thinking MAX/MSP is the best vehicle. I have no desire to "own" the application, although in a way this writing here is a type of copyright in case someone creates the application and charges a huge fee for it.

To hear me creating music with this, check out some of the mp3s at

 The song photomultiplier uses it, as do many others.

I'm very serious about creating this or using it once someone creates it. Thanks.

There is a very interesting type of sequencer that is built on intervals.  For instance, you have the digits from 1-10....1-9 are
intervals between steps, and 0's are rests.  You can have something like 167 steps which then repeat.  The most important thing however is that this sequencer is triggered from the keyboard.  I have been using this technique since 1983 and it has given me great results in composing music.  I would like to bring it to the MIDI age and I'm thinking MAX/MSP is the best vehicle.  I have no desire to "own" the application, although in a way this writing here is a type of copyright in case someone creates the application and charges a huge fee for it.  

To hear me creating music with this, check out some of the mp3s at
http://www.rspearson.com/rsmusic.html.  The song photomultiplier uses it, as do many others.  

I'm very serious about creating this or using it once someone creates it.  Thanks.

question-if-this-app-has-been-created

On Aug 24, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Robert Pearson wrote:

> although in a way this writing here is a type of copyright in case 

> someone creates the application and charges a huge fee for it.

> although in a way this writing here is a type of copyright in case  
> someone creates the application and charges a huge fee for it.

San Francisco, CA
Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
Web: www.barrythrew.com


Quote: barry threw wrote on Mon, 25 August 2008 04:39

----------------------------------------------------

> On Aug 24, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Robert Pearson wrote:

> > although in a way this writing here is a type of copyright in case 

> > someone creates the application and charges a huge fee for it.

Write it down, then mail it to yourself recorded delivery and keep it. That'll stand up much better than a post on this list. If it's worth that much to you anyway.

Quote: barry threw wrote on Mon, 25 August 2008 04:39
----------------------------------------------------
> Except that it, uh, isn't.
>
> On Aug 24, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Robert Pearson wrote:
>
> > although in a way this writing here is a type of copyright in case  
> > someone creates the application and charges a huge fee for it.
----------------------------------------------------

Write it down, then mail it to yourself recorded delivery and keep it. That'll stand up much better than a post on this list. If it's worth that much to you anyway.


Well, I'm actually not that interested in building it myself.

I don't presently own a copy of Max and I've already done

a lot in the form of software (I've owned and ran ParaMind Brainstorming Software since 1992). I am mostly wanting to

know if it's been programmed before, or if anyone would

like to program it, I will support them/help them in every

Well, I'm actually not that interested in building it myself.
I don't presently own a copy of Max and I've already done
a lot in the form of software (I've owned and ran ParaMind Brainstorming Software since 1992).  I am mostly wanting to
know if it's been programmed before, or if anyone would
like to program it, I will support them/help them in every
way I can.

Quote: fairesigneaumachiniste wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 18:09

> Write it down, then mail it to yourself recorded delivery and keep it. That'll stand up much better than a post on this list. If it's worth that much to you anyway.

First of all, you cannot copyright an idea.

Copyright covers the *concrete*expression* of an idea.

If you want to copyright an application, you have to write the application first.

Second, the "send yourself a sealed envelope" idea, though commonly promulgated, won't stand up in court in most jurisdictions. It certainly won't stand up in the US. Cf.

Quote: fairesigneaumachiniste wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 18:09
----------------------------------------------------
> Write it down, then mail it to yourself recorded delivery and keep it. That'll stand up much better than a post on this list. If it's worth that much to you anyway.
----------------------------------------------------

Second, the "send yourself a sealed envelope" idea, though commonly promulgated, won't stand up in court in most jurisdictions. It certainly won't stand up in the US. Cf.


> Write it down, then mail it to yourself recorded delivery and keep it.

You can't copyright ideas, only the expression of that idea.

This comes up every time there is a discussion about copyright by 

people that don't know anything about copyright. Mailing a letter to 

yourself has absolutely no effect on your legal standing with copy 

protected works. Your copyright, under US law, comes into effect as 

> That'll stand up much better than a post on this list. If it's worth 

A post on this list is COMPLETELY CONTRARY to keeping any kind of 

rights over IP. Confidential information for IP purposes has to be 

TREATED AS CONFIDENTIAL. Otherwise it does not stand up.

But, thats almost a moot point. The thing that gets me is the audacity 

of someone posting an idea to a PUBLIC MAILING LIST, with the 

provision that they now own it and anyone that would implement it and 

charge or their hard work couldn't...because, uh, "I posted it first." 

This goes against the entire spirit of such a forum for free 

communication of ideas and mutual development of composition and music 

technology. Give me a fucking break. Either make your own 

implementation, or pay someone some money to do it for you, or else 

don't come crying when some programmer decided they actually want to 

This comes up every time there is a discussion about copyright by  
people that don't know anything about copyright. Mailing a letter to  
yourself has absolutely no effect on your legal standing with copy  
protected works. Your copyright, under US law, comes into effect as  
soon as a work is committed to a medium.

> That'll stand up much better than a post on this list. If it's worth  
> that much to you anyway.

A post on this list is COMPLETELY CONTRARY to keeping any kind of  
rights over IP. Confidential information for IP purposes has to be  
TREATED AS CONFIDENTIAL. Otherwise it does not stand up.

But, thats almost a moot point. The thing that gets me is the audacity  
of someone posting an idea to a PUBLIC MAILING LIST, with the  
provision that they now own it and anyone that would implement it and  
charge or their hard work couldn't...because, uh, "I posted it first."  
This goes against the entire spirit of such a forum for free  
communication of ideas and mutual development of composition and music  
technology. Give me a fucking break. Either make your own  
implementation, or pay someone some money to do it for you, or else  
don't come crying when some programmer decided they actually want to  
make a living around here.

In the UK it stands up well as proof of a DESIGN in the way that a patent would be used. I assumed that the OP had a design rather than just an idea.

P.s. It was light hearted, if I actually thought a design was worth while I'd patent the damn thing. :)

In the UK it stands up well as proof of a DESIGN in the way that a patent would be used. I assumed that the OP had a design rather than just an idea. 

P.s. It was light hearted, if I actually thought a design was worth while I'd patent the damn thing. :)


On Aug 27, 2008, at 12:48 PM, fairesigneaumachiniste wrote:

> In the UK it stands up well as proof of a DESIGN in the way that a 

> patent would be used. I assumed that the OP had a design rather than 

It would certainly stand as a public disclosure. I don't know about 

the UK, but in the US public disclosure has consequences regarding the 

On Aug 27, 2008, at 12:48 PM, fairesigneaumachiniste wrote:
> In the UK it stands up well as proof of a DESIGN in the way that a  
> patent would be used. I assumed that the OP had a design rather than  
> just an idea.

It would certainly stand as a public disclosure. I don't know about  
the UK, but in the US public disclosure has consequences regarding the  
patentability of an invention.

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

> In the UK it stands up well as proof of a DESIGN in the way that a

> patent would be used. I assumed that the OP had a design rather than

The main requirement for getting a patent is, that it wasn't published 

before. That is also a way to prevent patenting. I heard of one case 

where a patent was refused, because that idea had been published in a 

This specific idea isn't new either, and it would be pretty easy to 

implement in Max. Any average Maxer could do it. Thus in itself it 

wouldn't be patentable, but the patch would be copyrightable...

It would be an ideal project to start learning Max. Its much easier and 

much more fun than coding this sort of tool in a normal programming 

fairesigneaumachiniste schrieb:
> In the UK it stands up well as proof of a DESIGN in the way that a
> patent would be used. I assumed that the OP had a design rather than
> just an idea.

The main requirement for getting a patent is, that it wasn't published 
before. That is also a way to prevent patenting. I heard of one case 
where a patent was refused, because that idea had been published in a 
Donald Duck comic strip before...

This specific idea isn't new either, and it would be pretty easy to 
implement in Max. Any average Maxer could do it. Thus in itself it 
wouldn't be patentable, but the patch would be copyrightable...

It would be an ideal project to start learning Max. Its much easier and 
much more fun than coding this sort of tool in a normal programming 
language...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


OK, if you really understand what I'm describing, please

point out an application or two that uses the ideas I'm

discussing. I think you'll find that various elements

are left out, which are vital to the whole thing working

OK, if you really understand what I'm describing, please
point out an application or two that uses the ideas I'm
discussing.  I think you'll find that various elements
are left out, which are vital to the whole thing working
in the way it is supposed to.


On Aug 28, 2008, at 8:55 PM, Robert Pearson wrote:

> OK, if you really understand what I'm describing, please

> point out an application or two that uses the ideas I'm

I have a section in my "Gyre" Max application that has many concepts 

in common with your ideas, at least if I understand what you're 

talking about. For example sending 7 repeatedly would start ascending 

the circle of fifths. Is this the sort of thing you mean?

In my application I have other ways to generate rests & rhythms other 

than using 0 to mean rest, so I use 0 to mean "repeat previous note". 

I have several methods to determine what happens when the accumulated 

> OK, if you really understand what I'm describing, please
> point out an application or two that uses the ideas I'm
> discussing.

I have a section in my "Gyre" Max application that has many concepts  
in common with your ideas, at least if I understand what you're  
talking about. For example sending 7 repeatedly would start ascending  
the circle of fifths. Is this the sort of thing you mean?

In my application I have other ways to generate rests & rhythms other  
than using 0 to mean rest, so I use 0 to mean "repeat previous note".  
I have several methods to determine what happens when the accumulated  
notes exceed some selected range.

This is taken from a private email conversation:

and for each note I play on the keyboard, when the sequence

starts, it goes in a loop and assigns the 1 to the first key pressed down, the 2 to the second, and so on. If there are 9 different intervals all used in the loop, but only 3 keys held down the program will play the octaves of the notes, so that 123 would be abc, and 456 would be a'b'c'...and so on.

Additional information not in the email: you have to isolate everything I'm talking about to get the full algorithm and why it's so interesting:

1) the full interval pattern 1-9, and then 0 for rests, is

looped -- this creates a living pulsing sequencer 

2) the fact that this loop is triggered by an accomplished

or just lucky person's playing of the loop on the keyboard

3) the fact that the interval loop will do interesting things

if less than the number of original keys are held down that

are in the loop (the loop becomes "intelligent").

There is something core about this concept, something

about it that relates to the nature of music...it's like

working at a genetic understanding of what can be good music

structure. Those into "generative music" I think will be

and for each note I play on the keyboard, when the sequence
starts, it goes in a loop and assigns the 1 to the first key pressed down, the 2 to the second, and so on.  If there are 9 different intervals all used in the loop, but only 3 keys held down the program will play the octaves of the notes, so that 123 would be abc, and 456 would be a'b'c'...and so on.

1) the full interval pattern 1-9, and then 0 for rests, is
looped -- this creates a living pulsing sequencer 
2) the fact that this loop is triggered by an accomplished
or just lucky person's playing of the loop on the keyboard
3) the fact that the interval loop will do interesting things
if less than the number of original keys are held down that
are in the loop (the loop becomes "intelligent").

There is something core about this concept, something
about it that relates to the nature of music...it's like
working at a genetic understanding of what can be good music
structure.  Those into "generative music" I think will be
very interested in this.  


> Those into "generative music" I think will be very interested in

Yes, this explains much more what you're after. It sounds very 

interesting, and it is your personal way of composing in an improvising 

To create such a beast is very easy in Max, I'd say after you've gone 

through the Max tutorials, it's a day to implement it. You only need Max 

in the beginning to create a Midi version...

You can easily finish a usable version within the 30-day demo period..

The big advantage of creating it yourself is, you can easily modify it 

and implement variations on your algorithm. It's literally a snap...

In can't encourage you more to just do it. An alternative to Max would 

eventually be Pd, the open source variant of Max and though not too 

closely as powerful as Max, for that sort of task more than sufficient...

Robert Pearson schrieb:
> Those into "generative music" I think will be very interested in
> this.

Yes, this explains much more what you're after. It sounds very 
interesting, and it is your personal way of composing in an improvising 
context.
To create such a beast is very easy in Max, I'd say after you've gone 
through the Max tutorials, it's a day to implement it. You only need Max 
in the beginning to create a Midi version...
You can easily finish a usable version within the 30-day demo period..

The big advantage of creating it yourself is, you can easily modify it 
and implement variations on your algorithm. It's literally a snap...

In can't encourage you more to just do it. An alternative to Max would 
eventually be Pd, the open source variant of Max and though not too 
closely as powerful as Max, for that sort of task more than sufficient...

You might find ice.lattice, from iCE Tools, a convenient way to build what you're after.

Question if this app has been created