steffensen

Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in stereo, making the reverb more spacious etc.

As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great: 

 i thought id pop the question out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this? Or perhaps you could hand me some hints on the matter?

Is it all just filtered and pan'ed delays, and some feedback goin on?

Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in stereo, making the reverb more spacious etc. 

As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great: http://music.columbia.edu/~brad/mm-2/) i thought id pop the question out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this? Or perhaps you could hand me some hints on the matter?

Is it all just filtered and pan'ed delays, and some feedback goin on?


regarding-spacious-stereo-width

# The Decorrelation of Audio Signals and Its Impact on Spatial Imagery

# Computer Music Journal, Vol. 19, No. 4 (Winter, 1995), pp. 71-87

> Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of

> making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in

> stereo, making the reverb more spacious etc.

> As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with

> just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great:

> out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this? Or perhaps

> you could hand me some hints on the matter?

> Is it all just filtered and pan'ed delays, and some feedback goin on?

# The Decorrelation of Audio Signals and Its Impact on Spatial Imagery
# Gary S. Kendall
# Computer Music Journal, Vol. 19, No. 4 (Winter, 1995), pp. 71-87

steffensen wrote:
> Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of
> making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in
> stereo, making the reverb more spacious etc.
>
> As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with
> just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great:
> http://music.columbia.edu/~brad/mm-2/) i thought id pop the question
> out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this? Or perhaps
> you could hand me some hints on the matter?
>
> Is it all just filtered and pan'ed delays, and some feedback goin on?
>
>

Even tho i dont have that book at hand, i found some snippets from it on google, and i can see the subject it presents. Its almost some kind of chorusing if i understand it right.

Most interesting.. i think im gonna try panning the signal out to different random-pitchmodifying effects, and only slightly affecting the different signals.

Looks interesting! To bad i dont speak code, not yet anyway. :)

jmdarremont,
Looks interesting! To bad i dont speak code, not yet anyway. :)


It's a journal article; if you're not affiliated with a university and 

can't find it on-line, you should be able to order a copy via your local 

library for a small charge, if they're anything like the ones here in 

It's not a chorusing effect - in fact, when it works well, the perceived 

spectral qualities of the input are minimally effected.

How it works is by the passing the input through two all-pass filters 

(i.e. that only mess with phase) whose coefficients have been designed 

to give phase responses that are random and minimally correlated, thus 

reducing the correlation of the input phase between channels and 

increasing perceived spatial width. It can also be used for reducing 

A plus is that mono sources can be spatialized, which doesn't work with 

Mid-Side processing (as there's no side signal). A drawback is that the 

perceived point of origin of the sound is smeared. Also, the same sets 

of filter coefficients don't work equally well for all inputs, so a 

certain amount of trial and error is required.

> Even tho i dont have that book at hand, i found some snippets from it

> on google, and i can see the subject it presents. Its almost some

> kind of chorusing if i understand it right.

> Most interesting.. i think im gonna try panning the signal out to

> different random-pitchmodifying effects, and only slightly affecting

It's a journal article; if you're not affiliated with a university and 
can't find it on-line, you should be able to order a copy via your local 
library for a small charge, if they're anything like the ones here in 
the UK.

It's not a chorusing effect - in fact, when it works well, the perceived 
spectral qualities of the input are minimally effected.

How it works is by the passing the input through two all-pass filters 
(i.e. that only mess with phase) whose coefficients have been designed 
to give  phase responses that are random and minimally correlated, thus 
reducing the correlation of the input phase between channels and 
increasing perceived spatial width.  It can also be used for reducing 
the spectral effects of short delays.

A plus is that mono sources can be spatialized, which doesn't work with 
Mid-Side processing (as there's no side signal). A drawback is that the 
perceived point of origin of the sound is smeared. Also, the same sets 
of filter coefficients don't work equally well for all inputs, so a 
certain amount of trial and error is required.

steffensen wrote:
> Even tho i dont have that book at hand, i found some snippets from it
> on google, and i can see the subject it presents. Its almost some
> kind of chorusing if i understand it right.
>
> Most interesting.. i think im gonna try panning the signal out to
> different random-pitchmodifying effects, and only slightly affecting
> the different signals.
>
> Good idea, and a good tip, thank you. 
>
>

Aha, i see, phase trix. Ill see what i can make out of that. Just the thought of this makes total sense!

Quote: owen wrote on Wed, 09 April 2008 04:31

----------------------------------------------------

> It's a journal article; if you're not affiliated with a university and 

> can't find it on-line, you should be able to order a copy via your local 

> library for a small charge, if they're anything like the ones here in 

> It's not a chorusing effect - in fact, when it works well, the perceived 

> spectral qualities of the input are minimally effected.

> How it works is by the passing the input through two all-pass filters 

> (i.e. that only mess with phase) whose coefficients have been designed 

> to give phase responses that are random and minimally correlated, thus 

> reducing the correlation of the input phase between channels and 

> increasing perceived spatial width. It can also be used for reducing 

> A plus is that mono sources can be spatialized, which doesn't work with 

> Mid-Side processing (as there's no side signal). A drawback is that the 

> perceived point of origin of the sound is smeared. Also, the same sets 

> of filter coefficients don't work equally well for all inputs, so a 

> certain amount of trial and error is required.

> > Even tho i dont have that book at hand, i found some snippets from it

> > on google, and i can see the subject it presents. Its almost some

> > kind of chorusing if i understand it right.

> > Most interesting.. i think im gonna try panning the signal out to

> > different random-pitchmodifying effects, and only slightly affecting

> > Good idea, and a good tip, thank you. 

Quote: owen wrote on Wed, 09 April 2008 04:31
----------------------------------------------------
> I guess you're replying to me?
>
> It's a journal article; if you're not affiliated with a university and 
> can't find it on-line, you should be able to order a copy via your local 
> library for a small charge, if they're anything like the ones here in 
> the UK.
>
> It's not a chorusing effect - in fact, when it works well, the perceived 
> spectral qualities of the input are minimally effected.
>
> How it works is by the passing the input through two all-pass filters 
> (i.e. that only mess with phase) whose coefficients have been designed 
> to give  phase responses that are random and minimally correlated, thus 
> reducing the correlation of the input phase between channels and 
> increasing perceived spatial width.  It can also be used for reducing 
> the spectral effects of short delays.
>
> A plus is that mono sources can be spatialized, which doesn't work with 
> Mid-Side processing (as there's no side signal). A drawback is that the 
> perceived point of origin of the sound is smeared. Also, the same sets 
> of filter coefficients don't work equally well for all inputs, so a 
> certain amount of trial and error is required.
>
> -- 
> Owen
>
>
>
> steffensen wrote:
> > Even tho i dont have that book at hand, i found some snippets from it
> > on google, and i can see the subject it presents. Its almost some
> > kind of chorusing if i understand it right.
> >
> > Most interesting.. i think im gonna try panning the signal out to
> > different random-pitchmodifying effects, and only slightly affecting
> > the different signals.
> >
> > Good idea, and a good tip, thank you. 
> >
> >
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


I was (still am) a major fan of Arif Mardin's production techniques, 

and one of the tricks he used was a short single delay, original and 

delayed signal panned hard L/R, before sending the sound into a good 

reverb. If the delay is really short it does a cute 'precedence 

effect' thing and makes it sound like the source is way off to the 

left or right of the stereo field, and if it is a little bit longer 

it makes it seem like you have a really big head. :-) No feedback, 

On Apr 9, 2008, at 5:11 AM, steffensen wrote:

> Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of 

> making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in 

> As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with 

> just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great: 

> question out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this? 

> Or perhaps you could hand me some hints on the matter?

I was (still am) a major fan of Arif Mardin's production techniques,  
and one of the tricks he used was a short single delay, original and  
delayed signal panned hard L/R, before sending the sound into a good  
reverb.  If the delay is really short it does a cute 'precedence  
effect' thing and makes it sound like the source is way off to the  
left or right of the stereo field, and if it is a little bit longer  
it makes it seem like you have a really big head.  :-)  No feedback,  
btw.

>
> Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of  
> making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in  
> stereo, making the reverb more spacious etc.
>
> As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with  
> just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great:  
> http://music.columbia.edu/~brad/mm-2/) i thought id pop the  
> question out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this?  
> Or perhaps you could hand me some hints on the matter?
>
> Is it all just filtered and pan'ed delays, and some feedback goin on?


Good tip there, that was kind of what i ment before by panned and filtered delays. 

I really do get good results by doin this on the actual sound. Using this technique on a reverb makes it kind of metallic however, even when filtering the different delayed signals.

Quote: Bradford Garton wrote on Wed, 09 April 2008 07:11

> I was (still am) a major fan of Arif Mardin's production techniques, 

> and one of the tricks he used was a short single delay, original and 

> delayed signal panned hard L/R, before sending the sound into a good 

> reverb. If the delay is really short it does a cute 'precedence 

> effect' thing and makes it sound like the source is way off to the 

> left or right of the stereo field, and if it is a little bit longer 

> it makes it seem like you have a really big head. :-) No feedback, 

> On Apr 9, 2008, at 5:11 AM, steffensen wrote:

> > Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of 

> > making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in 

> > stereo, making the reverb more spacious etc.

> > As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with 

> > just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great: 

> > question out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this? 

> > Or perhaps you could hand me some hints on the matter?

> > Is it all just filtered and pan'ed delays, and some feedback goin on?

Thanks for noticing!
Nice to see you around. :)

Good tip there, that was kind of what i ment before by panned and filtered delays. 
I really do get good results by doin this on the actual sound. Using this technique on a reverb makes it kind of metallic however, even when filtering the different delayed signals.

Anyway, ill find a way im sure.
Thanks again! 

Quote: Bradford Garton wrote on Wed, 09 April 2008 07:11
----------------------------------------------------
> Wow, thanks for the nice words!
>
> I was (still am) a major fan of Arif Mardin's production techniques,  
> and one of the tricks he used was a short single delay, original and  
> delayed signal panned hard L/R, before sending the sound into a good  
> reverb.  If the delay is really short it does a cute 'precedence  
> effect' thing and makes it sound like the source is way off to the  
> left or right of the stereo field, and if it is a little bit longer  
> it makes it seem like you have a really big head.  :-)  No feedback,  
> btw.
>
> brad
> http://music.columbia.edu/~brad
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2008, at 5:11 AM, steffensen wrote:
>
> >
> > Ive been trying to figure out for a while now, different ways of  
> > making my reverb and other kinds of sounds a bit more wider in  
> > stereo, making the reverb more spacious etc.
> >
> > As ive been hearing a lot of atmos/drones made out of max/msp, with  
> > just this spacial stereo widening (for example the ever so great:  
> > http://music.columbia.edu/~brad/mm-2/) i thought id pop the  
> > question out there, Do you have any special tricks for doing this?  
> > Or perhaps you could hand me some hints on the matter?
> >
> > Is it all just filtered and pan'ed delays, and some feedback goin on?
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


Regarding Spacious Stereo Width..