jtshavitz

recently purchased a 17' MacBook Pro and Jitter - in hopes to gain some increased performance & to use shaders for video. I've been a long time Max/softVNS user, and my performance apps run SUPER smooth with an older G5/10.3.9/Max 4.5 set up.

When I started using Jitter I encountered a serious playback 'hiccup' or 'stutter', when playing even 1- 640x480 photojpeg (med quality) movie.

- I tested GPU & CPU based example patches.

(1 jit.qt.movie & jit.window or jit.qt.movie & videplane)

- tried tweaking Performance settings for Max

Even when mixing 5 video streams on GPU, the stutter happens at similar intervals, in each movie.

I've tried every optimization, read every tutorial, downloaded every sample I could find, read every thread on playback issues - 

( just mentioned this to avoid replies like "did you read the manual" o r" id you try the eample patches". I have. I've spent hours and hours researching)

(Mac 17" 2.4 10.4.10/ 2gb ram / 256 - GeForce 8600M GT, had last version of QT - and recently tried 7.3.0)

- I optimized the OS - cut every CPU task I could (SpotLight, Dashboard Network, OS window shadows, etc etc -)

still the same jump in playback every 3 - 4 seconds a stutter.

I then tried the example patches on 3 diferent G5s (dual 2.0 & quad core & intel G5) -all with same results!!!

Dont mean to be a wise ass here, but - Is this where the name Jitter comes from?

The stutter is very visible, in my opinion unacceptable for producing DVDs or exhibition - and I just cant believe other artists would just live with this!?

so then I turned to Cycling74 - and their response was to give a detailed account /specs etc. - I did & took 2 hours explaining/writing, etc.

the got a simple, deadend, frustrating, response from Andrew B:

"Smooth playback is one of the things that we will be

exploring as we develop future versions of Jitter."

Does this mean when it was released ( for $$$) it wasnt even playing 1 movie "smoothly"?! - it wasnt explored prior to selling the software?

I've read many threads on low-priority queue - threading etc - 

and even read about the video card being "underclocked" by apple for design / heat reasons. - that it runs better, faster on PC's

I was wondering if anyone has tested or regularly runs Max/Jitter in Windows Vista on a MBPro - and if the video playback is better? (different drivers, and more control over video card)

As I've just invested over 4000$ buying this machine FOR live video + 2 weeks developing, I jast cant afford to spend $ and time buying Vista & installing etc, just to realize theres no improvement - the stutter is still there...

thanks in advance for any help in this matter - I have hit a brick wall and am running out of time for product on a project!

Hi 
recently purchased a 17' MacBook Pro and Jitter  - in hopes to gain some increased performance & to use shaders for video. I've been a long time Max/softVNS user, and my performance apps run SUPER smooth with an older G5/10.3.9/Max 4.5 set up.

- I tested GPU & CPU based example patches.
- I made super simple patches as well.
(1 jit.qt.movie & jit.window or jit.qt.movie & videplane)
- I've tried RAM loading & RAM Disks.
- tried metro, qmetro, qlim
- tried tweaking Performance settings for Max
- tried standalone apps

Even when mixing 5 video streams on GPU, the stutter happens at similar intervals, in each movie. 

I've tried every optimization, read every tutorial, downloaded every sample I could find, read every thread on playback issues - 
( just mentioned this to avoid replies like "did you read the manual" o r" id you try the eample patches". I have. I've spent hours and hours researching)

-- OR, of course -  is it this machine? 
(Mac 17" 2.4 10.4.10/ 2gb ram / 256 - GeForce 8600M GT, had last version of QT - and recently tried 7.3.0)

- I optimized the OS -  cut every CPU task I could (SpotLight, Dashboard Network, OS window shadows, etc etc -)

Dont mean to be a wise ass here, but  - Is this where the name Jitter comes from?

"Smooth playback is one of the things that we will be
exploring as we develop future versions of Jitter."

I've read many threads on low-priority queue - threading etc - 
and even read about the video card being "underclocked" by apple for design / heat reasons. - that it runs better, faster on PC's

smooth-jitter-playback-max-in-vista-on-mbp

Vista/Max/Jitter on MBPro vs. WindowsXP/Max/Jitter on MBPro

- or, has anyone compared 
Vista/Max/Jitter on MBPro vs. WindowsXP/Max/Jitter on MBPro


i reeeaaaly don't think xp or vista will make much of a difference. there are inherent problems with jitter's quicktime engine when it comes to playing back hd movies smoothly, as implied by andrew's response.

however, playing back 1 640x480 movie without stutter should not be a problem.

try the following patch, which has several optimizations for qt playback, and see if you get better results with some 640 x 480 photo-jpeg clips.

I tried this patch, and the jumpy playback is still there -

>don't think xp or vista will make much of a difference.

it certainly was a last resort idea - I read a thread about GL problems w GeForce 8600M GT on the MacBook Pro 2.4 17" - something about 'underclokcing' - there was also mention that the GeForce in Windows has a control panel with many settings - I was thinking I may be able to dig around there /

I'm sure there a few users out there with same machine & set up that I have - Is anyone else experiencing this problem?

maybe some CPU clock OS thing running thats causing the hiccup?

thanks for your response  -
I tried this patch, and the jumpy playback is still there - 

it certainly was a last resort idea -  I read a thread about GL problems w GeForce 8600M GT on the MacBook Pro 2.4 17" - something about 'underclokcing' -  there was also mention that the GeForce in Windows has a control panel with many settings - I was thinking I may be able to dig around there /

- 
 maybe some CPU clock OS thing running thats causing the hiccup?


Don't waste your time and energy. Others did it already. (Including 

myself). the hickup won't disappear. But the good news, since I promised 

to buy some beers for Jeremy and Joshua they promised to look into the 

in the meantime, the most effective playback I got is with NTSC encoded 

Material. It is way better than PAL performance. Stupid? Yes, but try it.

Windows Machines are not better, try bootcamp if you like.

David Rockeby is also working on softVNS for Intel. I wonder who will 

> I tried this patch, and the jumpy playback is still there - 

>> don't think xp or vista will make much of a difference.

> it certainly was a last resort idea - I read a thread about GL problems w GeForce 8600M GT on the MacBook Pro 2.4 17" - something about 'underclokcing' - there was also mention that the GeForce in Windows has a control panel with many settings - I was thinking I may be able to dig around there /

> I'm sure there a few users out there with same machine & set up that I have - Is anyone else experiencing this problem?

> maybe some CPU clock OS thing running thats causing the hiccup?

Hi James,
Don't waste your time and energy. Others did it already. (Including 
myself). the hickup won't disappear. But the good news, since I promised 
to buy some beers for Jeremy and Joshua they promised to look into the 
problem as soon as Max 5 is released.

in the meantime, the most effective playback I got is with NTSC encoded 
Material. It is way better than PAL performance. Stupid? Yes, but try it.

Windows Machines are not better, try bootcamp if you like.
David Rockeby is also working on softVNS for Intel. I wonder who will 
win the race.

james schrieb:
> thanks for your response  -
> I tried this patch, and the jumpy playback is still there - 
>
>> don't think xp or vista will make much of a difference.
>
> it certainly was a last resort idea -  I read a thread about GL problems w GeForce 8600M GT on the MacBook Pro 2.4 17" - something about 'underclokcing' -  there was also mention that the GeForce in Windows has a control panel with many settings - I was thinking I may be able to dig around there /
>
>
> I'm sure there a few users out there with same machine & set up that I have - Is anyone else experiencing this problem?
>
> - 
>  maybe some CPU clock OS thing running thats causing the hiccup?
>
>
>


I'm not sure that "as soon as" was part of the deal, but we are 

intending to look closely at this issue at some point.

Am 14.11.2007 um 12:24 schrieb John Dekron:

> I promised to buy some beers for Jeremy and Joshua they promised to 

> look into the problem as soon as Max 5 is released

I'm not sure that "as soon as" was part of the deal, but we are  
intending to look closely at this issue at some point.

> I promised to buy some beers for Jeremy and Joshua they promised to  
> look into the problem as soon as Max 5 is released


thanks for the replies - and clarifying, i spent a lot of time digging around and would've apprecieted a detailed response right off the bat - especially since this was a "known issue"!

>but we are intending to look closely at this issue at some point

This problem makes ALL (!!!) output form Jitter unusable.

I've now spoken/emailed with others, that are having the same problem, and they're quite disappointed with the lack of interest/attention by Cycling74 on this matter.

In my opinion, this is an absolute priority issue.

my work with max/jitter and consequently all my live video production work has stopped dead in its tracks because of this.

at some point?
This problem makes ALL (!!!) output form Jitter unusable.
flat out. no work arounds.

In my opinion, this is an absolute priority issue.
please fix this!!!

I'll buy a months work and drop ship to the office in SF if you get this fixed!!!!!!

I'll buy a months work and drop ship to the office in SF if you get this fixed!!!!!!
promise.


-sorry - 
a month's WORTH - 
... uh well, maybe a 6 pack a day :)


> This problem makes ALL (!!!) output form Jitter unusable.

with the patch i gave to you, i can playback a 640x480 movie with no hiccups and no stuttering.

is your movie exported with a very high data rate perhaps?

> This problem makes ALL (!!!) output form Jitter unusable.
> flat out. no work arounds.

er, that's a bit dramatic.
with the patch i gave to you, i can playback a 640x480 movie with no hiccups and no stuttering.

is your movie exported with a very high data rate perhaps?


I gather that you are under the impression that we are ignoring this issue, or that it isn't a priority for us.

In actual fact, this particular issue is of great concern for those of us in Cycling '74 that work on the Jitter project, and we sincerely hope to be able to fix it soon. We have had numerous internal discussions about possible causes or solutions. Nevertheless, at this moment all of our development resources as a company are devoted to finishing Max 5 as soon as we can. Cycling '74 is a small software company with a very small team of full-time engineers, and sometimes we need to focus our efforts on finishing one project before we can address issues with another one.

Please know that we take everyone's bug reports and messages to the forum very seriously, even when you don't hear us chiming in. I promise you that this issue is being researched and hopefully resolved for a future version of Jitter.

Hi James,
I gather that you are under the impression that we are ignoring this issue, or that it isn't a priority for us.

In actual fact, this particular issue is of great concern for those of us in Cycling '74 that work on the Jitter project, and we sincerely hope to be able to fix it soon.  We have had numerous internal discussions about possible causes or solutions. Nevertheless, at this moment all of our development resources as a company are devoted to finishing Max 5 as soon as we can. Cycling '74 is a small software company with a very small team of full-time engineers, and sometimes we need to focus our efforts on finishing one project before we can address issues with another one.

Please know that we take everyone's bug reports and messages to the forum very seriously, even when you don't hear us chiming in.  I promise you that this issue is being researched and hopefully resolved for a future version of Jitter.

> gather that you are under the impression that we are ignoring

> this issue, or that it isn't a priority for us.

- well, from the initial response thru c74 support weeks ago, I DID get the impression that it was not priority. The reposne to my detailed email/report after being told to send that by phone support - was minimal, general, and inconclusive... which led me to nearly a week of testing, digging around etc.

SO, a mention in the response that it was important and a priority would've at least saved me hours and hours of valuable time.

maybe a general posting about this, officially!!!, so others dont waste the time as well is in order?

(maybe it will hurt sales(?), but thats business right?)

> gather that you are under the impression that we are ignoring
> this issue, or that it isn't a priority for us.

as many others have also experienced.
SO, a mention in the response that it was important and a priority would've at least saved me hours and hours of valuable time.

maybe a general posting about this, officially!!!, so others dont waste the time as well is in order?
(maybe it will hurt sales(?), but thats business right?)

actually - to clarify further - is this problem related to specific machines/video cards?

some people report smooth playback/"no problems on my machine" -(without posted machine/system specs etc)

no is scientific fact. (i have witnesses) ;)

not one movie will playback without hiccups.

and when playing multiple movies they all have the same hiccup - with plenty of CPU to spare..

What machine are you using? / version of Max / video card / etc - I'd like to know, I'd go buy your setup tomorrow if I could confirm this problem is machine specific - (prob with my MBP)

I've tested on 5 differnt machines (ppc g5's, intel g5, powerbook & macbook pro)

even different recent versions of Quicktime.

whereever I can run my VNS patches, they play super smooth - no hiccups.

> with the patch i gave to you, i can playback a 640x480 movie

> is your movie exported with a very high data rate perhaps?

nope - med quality 720 480 photojpeg / 30fps

> er, that's a bit dramatic.
no is scientific fact.  (i have witnesses) ;)
not one movie will playback without hiccups.
and when playing multiple movies they all have the same hiccup - with plenty of CPU to spare..

I've tested on 5 differnt machines (ppc g5's, intel g5, powerbook & macbook pro)
same problem everywhere!
even different recent versions of Quicktime.

- 
whereever I can run my VNS patches, they play super smooth - no hiccups.

> with the patch i gave to you, i can playback a 640x480 movie
> with no hiccups and no stuttering.
I wish :)

>
> is your movie exported with a very high data rate perhaps?
nope - med quality 720 480 photojpeg / 30fps

Well, Id just like to say I am currently using Jitter to drive 4 

projectors off of a single machine, bringing in 720p HD over HDMI @ 

uyvy and playing back a 2460x480 pixel movie with UYVY + shader 

mixing, simultaneously, with midi input/control, at a pretty solid 

30fps. Framerate does judder a bit, but I can say it is barely 

noticeable unless you look for it. I was surprised it was not as bad 

as I had usually experienced. This was on a quad intel @ 2.66.

What ive found HAS to be done to get things working well when dealing 

jit.gl.slab @file cc.uyvy2rgba.jxs for UYVY 2 rgba conversion

On Nov 16, 2007, at 7:06 PM, Robert Ramirez wrote:

>> This problem makes ALL (!!!) output form Jitter unusable.

> with the patch i gave to you, i can playback a 640x480 movie with no 

Well, Id just like to say I am currently using Jitter to drive 4  
projectors off of a single machine, bringing in 720p HD over HDMI @  
uyvy and playing back a 2460x480 pixel movie with UYVY + shader  
mixing, simultaneously, with midi input/control, at a pretty solid  
30fps. Framerate does judder a bit, but I can say it is barely  
noticeable unless you look for it. I was surprised it was not as bad  
as I had usually experienced. This was on a quad intel @ 2.66.

What ive found HAS to be done to get things working well when dealing  
with any fairly large video sizes.

Performance Options:
Set UI update to a measly 5 Hz

>
>> This problem makes ALL (!!!) output form Jitter unusable.
>> flat out. no work arounds.
>
> er, that's a bit dramatic.
> with the patch i gave to you, i can playback a 640x480 movie with no  
> hiccups and no stuttering.
>
> is your movie exported with a very high data rate perhaps?


I realize frame rate does fluctuate during playback - I'm not necessarily looking for perfect frame accuracy for broadcast etc.. 

- and with my 5 simultaneous video streams using VNS, frame rate fluctuated for sure - but video playback was almost perfectly smooth

> barely noticeable unless you look for it

well, this could vary from video to video - depending on the content.

I am working on a piece with VERY steady motion control camera tracking, and the jumps in jitter playback are very obvious - to anyone -

on the other hand, some of my other other abstract clips, yes, its hard to notice, but still there.

I'm workin on 2 DVD projects recording live video performances, so the masters containing this glitch is unacceptable by my standards :) ..for me - it ruins camera work - and overal impact of the piece.

- 1 720x480 photojpeg video stream on my old titanium 500mhz using Max and NATO plays back smoother than my brand new MBP!!

well, i had faith when I jumped into my switch from VNS to Jitter - as I read and heard many good things about Jitter I certainly assumed 1 movie would be smooth - but, well...

> Framerate does judder a bit
I realize frame rate does fluctuate during playback - I'm not necessarily looking for perfect frame accuracy for broadcast etc.. 
- and with my 5 simultaneous video streams using VNS, frame rate fluctuated for sure - but video playback was almost perfectly smooth

> barely noticeable unless you look for it
well, this could vary from video to video - depending on the content.
I am working on a piece with VERY steady motion control camera tracking, and the jumps in jitter playback are very obvious - to anyone -
 on the other hand, some of my other other abstract clips, yes, its hard to notice, but still there.

I'm workin on 2 DVD projects recording live video performances, so the masters containing this glitch is unacceptable by my standards :) ..for me -  it ruins camera work - and overal impact of the piece.

 - 1 720x480 photojpeg video stream on my old titanium 500mhz using Max and NATO plays back smoother than my brand new MBP!!

re "faith" - :)
well, i had faith when I jumped into my switch from VNS to Jitter - as I read and heard many good things about Jitter  I certainly assumed 1 movie would be smooth - but, well...


I just made a standalone on a non-intel G5 - with 5 - 640 480 softVNS streams mixed to one output / ram loaded the movies - and opened that on my MBP 2.4 17" - video clips playback perfectly.

hmmm? seems like its not this machine, its Jitter!? 

anyone out there running this exact setup:

(problem also was on last version of QT as well)

* all the obvious CPU optimizations have been tried / dashboard/sotlight / shadows all killed ..etc

I realize this may just be a Jitter problem, but I cant rest until I know I've tried everything... :)

hmmm? seems like its not this machine, its Jitter!? 
so confusing.
-

anyone out there running this exact setup:
MacBookPro 2.4 17"
10.4.10
256 GeForce 8600M GT
2GB RAM
MAX 4.6.3 / Jitter 1.6.3
Quicktime 7.3.0
(problem also was on last version of QT as well)

I realize this may just be a Jitter problem, but I cant rest until I know I've tried everything... :)
thanks in advance//

I dont think you will get much better from my experience, ive tried 

everything as well. I will humbly admit to looking into Quartz 

Composer in the mean time. I look forward to Jit 2.0 eagerly.

On Nov 16, 2007, at 10:07 PM, james wrote:

> I just made a standalone on a non-intel G5 - with 5 - 640 480 

> softVNS streams mixed to one output / ram loaded the movies - and 

> opened that on my MBP 2.4 17" - video clips playback perfectly.

> hmmm? seems like its not this machine, its Jitter!?

> anyone out there running this exact setup:

> (problem also was on last version of QT as well)

> * all the obvious CPU optimizations have been tried / dashboard/ 

> I realize this may just be a Jitter problem, but I cant rest until I 

I dont think you will get much better from my experience, ive tried  
everything as well. I will humbly admit to looking into Quartz  
Composer in the mean time. I look forward to Jit 2.0 eagerly.

>
> I just made a standalone on a non-intel G5 - with 5 - 640 480  
> softVNS streams mixed to one output / ram loaded the movies - and  
> opened that on my MBP 2.4 17" - video clips playback perfectly.
>
> hmmm? seems like its not this machine, its Jitter!?
> so confusing.
> -
>
> anyone out there running this exact setup:
> MacBookPro 2.4 17"
> 10.4.10
> 256 GeForce 8600M GT
> 2GB RAM
> MAX 4.6.3 / Jitter 1.6.3
> Quicktime 7.3.0
> (problem also was on last version of QT as well)
>
>
> * all the obvious CPU optimizations have been tried / dashboard/ 
> sotlight / shadows all killed ..etc
>
> ---
>
> I realize this may just be a Jitter problem, but I cant rest until I  
> know I've tried everything... :)
> thanks in advance//
>
>
>
>
> ---


me too - I'll take a small update that just fixes this too!!! 

(i realize it may be no 'small' task!... but maybe?)

Quartz Composer playback is perfect / but building my live app/patches - its just not ready for that :)

I wonder.. whats the different between how softVNS plays back/controls quicktime - VS - Jitter?

isnt it all the same commands etc underneath??

>I look forward to Jit 2.0 eagerly.
me too - I'll take a small update that just fixes this too!!! 
(i realize it may be no 'small' task!... but maybe?)

I wonder.. whats the different between how softVNS plays back/controls quicktime - VS - Jitter?
 why is there any difference?
isnt it all the same commands etc underneath??

I have done some serious looking into this. Of course our needs will 

be/are different, ive seen very little that could not be re-created 

with some initiative. QC 3.0 in 10.5 is leaps and bounds ahead of QC 

On Nov 16, 2007, at 11:19 PM, james wrote:

> Quartz Composer playback is perfect / but building my live app/ 

> patches - its just not ready for that :)

I have done some serious looking into this. Of course our needs will  
be/are different, ive seen very little that could not be re-created  
with some initiative. QC 3.0 in 10.5 is leaps and bounds ahead of QC  
2.x in Tiger as far as I am concerned.

> Quartz Composer playback is perfect / but building my live app/ 
> patches - its just not ready for that :)


> I'm workin on 2 DVD projects recording live video performances, so the

> masters containing this glitch is unacceptable by my standards :) ..for me -

> it ruins camera work - and overal impact of the piece.

Have you considered using offline rendering? I get the impression you're not

doing any live editing on this piece. It is possible to render your final

master frame by frame using something similar to render_node:

It might require some work to make your patches compatible though.

>
> I'm workin on 2 DVD projects recording live video performances, so the
> masters containing this glitch is unacceptable by my standards :) ..for me -
>  it ruins camera work - and overal impact of the piece.
>
>

Have you considered using offline rendering? I get the impression you're not
doing any live editing on this piece. It is possible to render your final
master frame by frame using something similar to render_node:
http://www.2uptech.com/render_node.html

mmm interesting, i've never tried this before..this one i can set with the message:

[;max enablerefresh 1,setrefreshrate $1]..?

> Performance Options:
> Set UI update to a measly 5 Hz

mmm interesting, i've never tried this before..this one i can set with the message:
[;max enablerefresh 1,setrefreshrate $1]..?
thanks a lot


smooth jitter playback / max in vista on MBP