Kasper

___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____

I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or 

_the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the 

build-in audio, later will be sound card)

_at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with 

_the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio

(all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest 

_create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate 

audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and 

    * but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2 

on built-in outs (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L 

_I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop 

___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using 

soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy. 

The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it 

I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND 

I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or 
"external loop") inside maxmsp.

_the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the 
build-in audio, later will be sound card)

_at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with 
soundflower - to Guitar rig

(all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest 
soundflower)

what i tried to do is to
_create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate 
audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and 
3 & 4 the soundflower2ch channels.

	* but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2 
on built-in outs  (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L 
& R)

_I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop 
(audio feedback) in GR...

___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using 
soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy. 
The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it 
(apart from the small "read me")

I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND 
receive the audio

kasper
-- 
  Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer
http://www.sleazeArt.com

soundflower-aggregate-max

Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 11:49

----------------------------------------------------

> ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____

> I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or 

> _the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the 

> build-in audio, later will be sound card)

> _at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with 

> _the guitar Rig outputs go back into max

> _the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio

> (all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest 

> _create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate 

> audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and 

>     * but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2 

> on built-in outs (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L 

> _I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop 

> ___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using 

> soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy. 

> The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it 

> I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND 

Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 11:49
----------------------------------------------------
> hi
>
> ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____
>
> I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or 
> "external loop") inside maxmsp.
>
> what i am trying to achive is
>
> _the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the 
> build-in audio, later will be sound card)
>
> _at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with 
> soundflower - to Guitar rig
>
> _the guitar Rig outputs go back into max
>
> _the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio
>
> (all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest 
> soundflower)
>
> **********
>
> what i tried to do is to
> _create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate 
> audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and 
> 3 & 4 the soundflower2ch channels.
>
> 	* but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2 
> on built-in outs  (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L 
> & R)
>
> _I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop 
> (audio feedback) in GR...
>
>
> ___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using 
> soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy. 
> The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it 
> (apart from the small "read me")
>
> I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND 
> receive the audio
>
> any help??
>
> thanks
>
> kasper
> -- 
>   Kasper T. Toeplitz
> noise, composition, bass, computer
> http://www.sleazeArt.com
>
> http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


just out of curiosity, what is the particular reason for not running 

Guitar Rig as a vst plugin inside maxmsp?

Kasper T Toeplitz skrev:
> hi
>
> ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____
>
> I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or 
> "external loop") inside maxmsp. 
Hi Kasper,

just out of curiosity, what is the particular reason for not running 
Guitar Rig as a vst plugin inside maxmsp?

yes, this i sthe way it _should_ work, but it does not:

_the output of GRig is send to max's adc~ 1 2 , BUT is also send to 

guitar Rig input, creating an audio feedback (by the way, taht's a 

cool way to create feedback in Grig, something a lot of people ask 

_and of course sending anything from max to Grig produces a feedback as well

I belive the way to go would be to use soundflower16ch, and sending 

on different channels than receiving - that's what i am trying to do 

since a few hours (with a break to download Jack X..)

>> ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____

>> I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or

>> _the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the

>> build-in audio, later will be sound card)

>> _at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with

>> _the guitar Rig outputs go back into max

>> _the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio

>> (all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest

>> _create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate

>> audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and

>>    * but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2

>> on built-in outs (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L

>> _I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop

>> ___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using

>> soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy.

>> The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it

>> I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND

thanks
yes, this i sthe way it _should_ work, but it does not:

_the output of GRig is send to max's adc~ 1 2 , BUT is also send to 
guitar Rig input, creating an audio feedback (by the way, taht's a 
cool way to create feedback in Grig, something a lot of people ask 
for!

I belive the way to go would be to use soundflower16ch, and sending 
on different channels than receiving - that's what i am trying to do 
since a few hours (with a break to download Jack X..)

>  > hi
>>
>>  ___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____
>>
>>  I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or
>>  "external loop") inside maxmsp.
>>
>>  what i am trying to achive is
>>
>>  _the (external) audio gets into maxmsp (for the moment by the
>>  build-in audio, later will be sound card)
>>
>>  _at some point in the patch this audio is routed - hopefully with
>>  soundflower - to Guitar rig
>>
>>  _the guitar Rig outputs go back into max
>>
>>  _the final result goes out through the output of the build-in audio
>>
>>  (all this is on a PPC Mac, OSX48, max457, and latest Grig, and latest
>>  soundflower)
>>
>>  **********
>>
>>  what i tried to do is to
>>  _create (in the mac's audio & midi configuration panel) an aggregate
>>  audio device ("macflower"), where 1 & 2 are the build in channels and
>>  3 & 4 the soundflower2ch channels.
>>
>>	* but then the audio generated in max is output by dac~ 1 2
>>  on built-in outs  (L & R) but so is the dac~ 3 4 (goes to built-in L
>>  & R)
>>
>>  _I can send the audio from GRig to max, BUT also got a feedback loop
>>  (audio feedback) in GR...
>>
>>
>>  ___well, in a word i did all i could think of (including using
>>  soundflower16ch) but can not find a solution - to what seems easy.
>>  The soundflower doc is non-existent, at least i did not found it
>>  (apart from the small "read me")
>>
>>  I can send from one app to the other, but never managed to send AND
>>  receive the audio
>>
>>  any help??
>>
>>  thanks
>>
>  > kasper


>>___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____

>>I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or 

>just out of curiosity, what is the particular reason for not running 

>Guitar Rig as a vst plugin inside maxmsp?

just because i noticed that the same GRig "patch" (same devices, same 

order etc) use much less CPU when run as standalone

my max/grig patch (grig as vst plug-in) is a little too heavy for my 

G4 pBook, and since my grig set up (bigMuff, sans amp, amp + cabinet) 

takes 10/15% less CPU when run as stand alone, i thought it would be 

if I manage to run the audio, next will be the iac midi control - but 

>Kasper T Toeplitz skrev:
>>hi
>>
>>___I am lost between aggregate audio device and soundflower...____
>>
>>I am trying to run the NI "Guitar Rig" app as an "insert" (or 
>>"external loop") inside maxmsp.
>Hi Kasper,
>
>just out of curiosity, what is the particular reason for not running 
>Guitar Rig as a vst plugin inside maxmsp?

just because i noticed that the same GRig "patch" (same devices, same 
order etc) use much less CPU when run as standalone

my max/grig patch (grig as vst plug-in) is a little too heavy for my 
G4 pBook, and since my grig set up (bigMuff, sans amp, amp + cabinet) 
takes 10/15% less CPU when run as stand alone, i thought it would be 
a good solution.

if I manage to run the audio, next will be the iac midi control - but 
i am not yet there

_audio build-in works as it always did (ins/outs 1&2)

_I send (in stereo) to GRig through dac~ 3 4

_I send from GRig on channles 5 & 6 (receiving it in max on adc~ 5 6)

I still have to try how robust it is, i also have a feeling than the 

order of starting the apps does a change.

_i did an aggregate with
	(first) build-in audio
	(second) soundflower16

_audio build-in works as it always did  (ins/outs 1&2)

_I send (in stereo) to GRig through dac~ 3 4
_I send from GRig on channles 5 & 6 (receiving it in max on adc~ 5 6)

I still have to try how robust it is, i also have a feeling than the 
order of starting the apps does a change.

Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 12:39

> yes, this i sthe way it _should_ work, but it does not:

> _the output of GRig is send to max's adc~ 1 2 , BUT is also send to 

> guitar Rig input, creating an audio feedback (by the way, taht's a 

> cool way to create feedback in Grig, something a lot of people ask 

Then I guess you'll have to find out why guitar rig sends its output back to its input, right? The patch assumes that guitar rig receives on input 1 & 2 and sends on output 1 & 2.

btw You did select the aggregate device as sound driver in max -and- guitar rig, right?

btw2, the underscores don't increase readability here ;)

> _and of course sending anything from max to Grig produces a feedback as well

> I belive the way to go would be to use soundflower16ch, and sending 

> on different channels than receiving - that's what i am trying to do 

> since a few hours (with a break to download Jack X..)

Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 12:39
----------------------------------------------------
> thanks
> yes, this i sthe way it _should_ work, but it does not:
>
> _the output of GRig is send to max's adc~ 1 2 , BUT is also send to 
> guitar Rig input, creating an audio feedback (by the way, taht's a 
> cool way to create feedback in Grig, something a lot of people ask 
> for!

btw You did select the aggregate device as sound driver in max -and- guitar rig, right? 

>
> _and of course sending anything from max to Grig produces a feedback as well
>
> I belive the way to go would be to use soundflower16ch, and sending 
> on different channels than receiving - that's what i am trying to do 
> since a few hours (with a break to download Jack X..)


>Then I guess you'll have to find out why guitar rig sends its output 

>back to its input, right? The patch assumes that guitar rig receives 

>on input 1 & 2 and sends on output 1 & 2.

sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works:

to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using

Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio)

you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels

of course i am not 100% sure to understand, but it seems to mean 

that if i send to GR on channel 3, GR can not output on channel 3 

without feedback. At least this is how i understand this, and that's 

how it works now (i send to GR on channels 3 4 and from CG on 5 6 - 

>btw You did select the aggregate device as sound driver in max -and- 

>btw2, the underscores don't increase readability here ;)

>
>Then I guess you'll have to find out why guitar rig sends its output 
>back to its input, right? The patch assumes that guitar rig receives 
>on input 1 & 2 and sends on output 1 & 2.

sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works:
If you want an application
to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using
Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio)
you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels
or a feedback loop will be created.

of course i am not 100% sure to understand,  but it seems to mean 
that if i send to GR on channel 3, GR can not output on channel 3 
without feedback. At least this is how i understand this, and that's 
how it works now (i send to GR on channels 3 4 and from CG on 5 6 - 
and this works)

>
>btw You did select the aggregate device as sound driver in max -and- 
>guitar rig, right?

>
>btw2, the underscores don't increase readability here ;)
>
  sorry for that

Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 14:34

> sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works:

> to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using

> Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio)

> you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels

Aa! Of course. Sorry for that. Here is an updated patch (which you seem to have figured out by yourself, but just to be sure we understand each other)

An important comment which might have been your problem previously:

Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange this is not set correctly by default.

Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 14:34
----------------------------------------------------
> sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works:
> If you want an application
> to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using
> Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio)
> you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels
> or a feedback loop will be created.

>Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 14:34

>----------------------------------------------------

>> sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works:

>> to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using

>> Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio)

>> you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels

>Aa! Of course. Sorry for that. Here is an updated patch (which you 

>seem to have figured out by yourself, but just to be sure we 

when you think about it it's totally right and using the same number 

(same channel) internally is stupid - how the machine could know I 

want it from here to there and not from there to here???

>An important comment which might have been your problem previously:

>Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in 

>DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange 

I personaly prefer to keep the outs 1 & 2 the "basic outs" (and ins) 

- ie either build in or the first 2 of a sound card - makes so much 

easier to check the examples, use old patches etc.

>Quote: Kasper T Toeplitz wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 14:34
>----------------------------------------------------
>>  sure but this seems to be the way sound flower works:
>>  If you want an application
>>  to send and receive audio through Soundflower, (for instance using
>>  Max/MSP to manipulate and return another application's audio)
>>  you must send and receive the audio on different audio channels
>>  or a feedback loop will be created.
>
>Aa! Of course. Sorry for that. Here is an updated patch (which you 
>seem to have figured out by yourself, but just to be sure we 
>understand each other)

when you think about it it's totally right and using the same number 
(same channel) internally is stupid - how the machine could know I 
want it from here to there and not from there to here???

>An important comment which might have been your problem previously:
>
>Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in 
>DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange 
>this is not set correctly by default.

I personaly prefer to keep the outs 1 & 2 the "basic outs" (and ins) 
- ie either build in or the first 2 of a sound card - makes so much 
easier to check the examples, use old patches etc.

> Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in

> DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange

It is correct by default, but if you changed it once in your Max life, 

Max will remember what you forgot some years ago... ;-)

Mattijs Kneppers schrieb:
> Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in
> DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange
> this is not set correctly by default.

It is correct by default, but if you changed it once in your Max life, 
Max will remember what you forgot some years ago... ;-)

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Fri, 15 June 2007 00:12

> > Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in

> > DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange

> > this is not set correctly by default.

> It is correct by default, but if you changed it once in your Max life, 

> Max will remember what you forgot some years ago... ;-)

No. It is correct up to channel 16. channel 17 and 18 are in the next tab and in the next tab all channels are set to off by default.

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Fri, 15 June 2007 00:12
----------------------------------------------------
> Mattijs Kneppers schrieb:
> > Make sure you set in/out channels 17/18 to physical in/out 17/18 in
> > DSP Status -> I/O Mappings in Max. Personally I think it is strange
> > this is not set correctly by default.
>
> It is correct by default, but if you changed it once in your Max life, 
> Max will remember what you forgot some years ago... ;-)

I am trying to send audio from jit.qt.movie to a soundflower channel and then back into max and out again trough the headphones/speakers using an aggregate device. I have played around with it and i can get the audio from the movie into max but then i can't output it through my headphones/speakers.

so then in max i will get the signal in adc~ 1 2 

I have tried this and it doesn't work. How should I set my system sound preferences; to the aggergate device?

any help would be super! It would be really good to finally understand soundflower and aggregate devices.

I am trying to send audio from jit.qt.movie to a soundflower channel and then back into max and out again trough the headphones/speakers using an aggregate device.  I have played around with it and i can get the audio from the movie into max but then i can't output it through my headphones/speakers.  

I have set up my agg device as:
soundflower(2ch)
Built in Output 

so then in max i will get the signal in adc~ 1 2 
and send it out dac~ 3 4

I have tried this and it doesn't work.  How should I set my system sound preferences; to the aggergate device?

First thing is that you shouldn't need to use the Sound control panel in System Preferences--you can do all of your system config. in Audio Midi Setup. Look there first to verify the ordering of the channels in your aggregate device. If, when you created the aggregate, you chose soundflower (2 ch) first, then those should indeed show as the first two channels when you display the Properties for your aggregate device. The Built-in Audio should show as channels 3 and 4 in both input and output. If you don't see all four inputs and outputs in the properties, it could be because you have a different sample rate selected for the individual drivers that you aggregated. Look in the properties for both Soundflower (2 ch) and Built in Audio and make sure they are set to the same sample rate. Then the properties for your aggregate device should show all four ins and all four outs.

Second thing is that the in and out channel numbers in MSP are "logical" channel numbers, and they need to be mapped to the available channels in the driver you are using. In the DSP Status window, click on I/O Mappings. In the case you described, the default mapping should work--1 to 1, 2 to 2, 3 to 3, and 4 to 4 for both in and out.

It seems like you are doing everything correctly--just make sure that you have the sample rates matching and that you are not using Built in Audio 2, which only has inputs and not outputs (the line input on Powerbooks and other models).

Tim,
First thing is that you shouldn't need to use the Sound control panel in System Preferences--you can do all of your system config. in Audio Midi Setup.  Look there first to verify the ordering of the channels in your aggregate device.  If, when you created the aggregate, you chose soundflower (2 ch) first, then those should indeed show as the first two channels when you display the Properties for your aggregate device.  The Built-in Audio should show as channels 3 and 4 in both input and output.  If you don't see all four inputs and outputs in the properties, it could be because you have a different sample rate selected for the individual drivers that you aggregated.  Look in the properties for both Soundflower (2 ch) and Built in Audio and make sure they are set to the same sample rate.  Then the properties for your aggregate device should show all four ins and all four outs.

Second thing is that the in and out channel numbers in MSP are "logical" channel numbers, and they need to be mapped to the available channels in the driver you are using.  In the DSP Status window, click on I/O Mappings.  In the case you described, the default mapping should work--1 to 1, 2 to 2, 3 to 3, and 4 to 4 for both in and out.

That is very helpful and makes things alot clearer. The only problem is as soon as i went to change or check the sample rates were the same soundflower went to 96000.2 kHz and i can't change it back to 44100.2 kHz? It is bizarre. Has it happened to anyone?

That is very helpful and makes things alot clearer.  The only problem is as soon as i went to change or check the sample rates were the same soundflower went to 96000.2 kHz and i can't change it back to 44100.2 kHz?  It is bizarre. Has it happened to anyone? 

Quote: Timothy Devine wrote on Sat, 16 June 2007 21:13

> That is very helpful and makes things alot clearer. The only problem is as soon as i went to change or check the sample rates were the same soundflower went to 96000.2 kHz and i can't change it back to 44100.2 kHz? It is bizarre. Has it happened to anyone? 

Yes, I have. First, you must open Audio Midi Setup and in the Properties for menu, select Built-in Audio, and change its sample rate to your desired rate (I guess 96000). Then select Soundflower (2 channel) and do the same for that. Then select your aggregate driver, and it should now show 96000 as the selected format. Under both the audio input column and the audio output column you will find a selection menu that allows you to select both Soundflower Input Stream #1, and Stream 2, which is your Built-in. If you cannot access both, it is probably because the sample rates are not matched.

Once that is set, you will need to relaunch Max/MSP if it is running, and open the DSP status box. Choose your driver and reset the sampling rate to 96000. Try turning it on and off, closing it and reopening it. If it stays at 96000 and still shows 4 of each input and output channels, then you should be ready to sail.

soundflower, aggregate & max