Yanisis

I am looking for a controller, a tracker or another device that could act like a foot controller capable of generating taps or send MIDI CC by hearing the leading voice I play live with a string instrument or voice instead of guitar or drums. I cannot tap by foot while playing; Classical musicians don’t usually do this. With such device I can use the Tap function in Ableton Live by mapping this function to the device which sends MIDI CC data to Live

I am looking for a controller, a tracker or another device that could act like a foot controller capable of generating taps or send MIDI CC by hearing the leading voice I play live with a string instrument or voice instead of guitar or drums.  I cannot tap by foot while playing; Classical musicians don’t usually do this.  With such device I can use the Tap function in Ableton Live by mapping this function to the device which sends MIDI CC data to Live


tough-how-can-i-make-a-controller-hear-my-voice

> rollers, trackers in the market that might be capable of doing this?

> My final goal is to sing along with Live or other program that 

> contains the accompaniment file (.MID) and I want this program to 

> follow my tempo fluctuations spontaneously, like a real orchestra 

> with a real conductor. Tricky, isn’t it?

i don't pretend to know much of it (although i once witnessed richard 

dudas presenting it in a max workshop - and it worked!), but the term 

"score following" may be enough to help you further!

> rollers, trackers in the market that might be capable of doing this?
>
> My final goal is to sing along with Live or other program that  
> contains the accompaniment file (.MID) and I want this program to  
> follow my tempo fluctuations spontaneously, like a real orchestra  
> with a real conductor.  Tricky, isn’t it?

i don't pretend to know much of it (although i once witnessed richard  
dudas presenting it in a max workshop - and it worked!), but the term  
"score following" may be enough to help you further!

bonk~ , fiddle~ or, maybe better, yin~. What's a bonk?

bonk~ , fiddle~ or, maybe better, yin~.  What's a bonk?


Hi Jan, I'll look for this gentleman on the net. Ion

Hi Jan, I'll look for this gentleman on the net.  Ion


Jan, do you have an email or a phone number of Mr. Dudas? Thank you again. Ion

Jan, do you have an email or a phone number of Mr. Dudas?  Thank you again.  Ion


didn't speak with Mr. Manoury. They told me that he's a composer as well and now he lives in the US. Do you have his email by any chance? Otherwise, I spoke with Mr. Schnell there who told me that we can play Finale and East West Libraries with 'Suivi' but the part of following the leading voice is not yet perfected. They're working on it therefore; Suivi is not ready yet to be launched in the market. Initially when I contacted IRCAM, Mr. Schwarz told me it's possible to do what I want but I need to look for 'briques'(patches). I'm little confused. Anyway, thank you very much for your help and if you have other ideas, please write to me. Ion

didn't speak with Mr. Manoury.  They told me that he's a composer as well and now he lives in the US.  Do you have his email by any chance?  Otherwise, I spoke with Mr. Schnell there who told me that we can play Finale and East West Libraries with 'Suivi' but the part of following the leading voice is not yet perfected.  They're working on it therefore; Suivi is not ready yet to be launched in the market.  Initially when I contacted IRCAM, Mr. Schwarz told me it's possible to do what I want but I need to look for 'briques'(patches).  I'm little confused.  Anyway, thank you very much for your help and if you have other ideas, please write to me.  Ion


i think that this, that you have sent to me , is a private email.

by the way I have Professor Manoury's email, that you can find also 

Il giorno 28/nov/06, alle ore 10:31, John ha scritto:

> didn't speak with Mr. Manoury. They told me that he's a composer 

> as well and now he lives in the US. Do you have his email by any 

> chance? Otherwise, I spoke with Mr. Schnell there who told me that 

> we can play Finale and East West Libraries with 'Suivi' but the 

> part of following the leading voice is not yet perfected. They're 

> working on it therefore; Suivi is not ready yet to be launched in 

> the market. Initially when I contacted IRCAM, Mr. Schwarz told me 

> it's possible to do what I want but I need to look for 

> 'briques'(patches). I'm little confused. Anyway, thank you very 

> much for your help and if you have other ideas, please write to 

i think that this, that you have sent to me , is a private email.
by the way I have Professor Manoury's email, that you can find also  
on UCSD website.

>
> didn't speak with Mr. Manoury.  They told me that he's a composer  
> as well and now he lives in the US.  Do you have his email by any  
> chance?  Otherwise, I spoke with Mr. Schnell there who told me that  
> we can play Finale and East West Libraries with 'Suivi' but the  
> part of following the leading voice is not yet perfected.  They're  
> working on it therefore; Suivi is not ready yet to be launched in  
> the market.  Initially when I contacted IRCAM, Mr. Schwarz told me  
> it's possible to do what I want but I need to look for  
> 'briques'(patches).  I'm little confused.  Anyway, thank you very  
> much for your help and if you have other ideas, please write to  
> me.  Ion
>


I don't understand, I thought I'm replying to jmdarremont but you are not the same person, are you?

All right, I'll contact Professor Manoury.

I don't understand, I thought I'm replying to jmdarremont but you are not the same person, are you?  

Il giorno 28/nov/06, alle ore 11:39, John ha scritto:

> I don't understand, I thought I'm replying to jmdarremont but you 

> All right, I'll contact Professor Manoury.

no i am not :-)
im tommaso perego from italy,

>
> Hi Tom:
>
> I don't understand, I thought I'm replying to jmdarremont but you  
> are not the same person, are you?
>
> All right, I'll contact Professor Manoury.
>
> Ion
>
>


I wrote to Mr. Manoury and hope he'll answer. It wasn't always easy to get on hold of IRCAM people. Buona sera. Ion

I wrote to Mr. Manoury and hope he'll answer.  It wasn't always easy to get on hold of IRCAM people.  Buona sera.  Ion


>I wrote to Mr. Manoury and hope he'll answer. It wasn't always easy 

>to get on hold of IRCAM people. Buona sera. Ion

I don' really get why you post this to the list, and why someone 

posted manoury's email address there etc etc - whatever

but (at least until recently, or last time i had a look at it) all 

(most of) Manoury patches were/are on the Ircam forum CD....

>I wrote to Mr. Manoury and hope he'll answer.  It wasn't always easy 
>to get on hold of IRCAM people.  Buona sera.  Ion

I don' really get why you post this to the list, and why someone 
posted manoury's email address there etc etc - whatever

but (at least until recently, or last time i had a look at it) all 
(most of) Manoury patches were/are on the Ircam  forum CD....

kasper
-- 
  Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer
http://www.sleazeArt.com

> Initially when I contacted IRCAM, Mr. Schwarz told me it's possible

> to do what I want but I need to look for 'briques'(patches). I'm

> little confused. Anyway, thank you very much for your help and if

> you have other ideas, please write to me. Ion

The issue of score following is not at all trivial, a bunch of 

artificial intelligence is necessary. The simple way is to start 

experimenting with [follow], it comes with Max and isn't bad at all. It 

might suit your needs, if not, expect some years of learning the 

subject. Certainly not a beginners project...

Btw. I haven't found a really working/usable speed/BPM detector yet, all 

averaging is just way behind. I do have some ideas about it, but haven't 

John wrote:
> Initially when I contacted IRCAM, Mr. Schwarz told me it's possible
> to do what I want but I need to look for 'briques'(patches).  I'm
> little confused.  Anyway, thank you very much for your help and if
> you have other ideas, please write to me.  Ion 

The issue of score following is not at all trivial, a bunch of 
artificial intelligence is necessary. The simple way is to start 
experimenting with [follow], it comes with Max and isn't bad at all. It 
might suit your needs, if not, expect some years of learning the 
subject. Certainly not a beginners project...

Btw. I haven't found a really working/usable speed/BPM detector yet, all 
averaging is just way behind. I do have some ideas about it, but haven't 
found the time to implement them...
Its not as easy as often suggested...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


If I can add my 2 cents (too late if I cannot ;-)

> And the best score follower, including during Ircam concerts, 

> Boulez's last piece for violin and electronics, is a human being 

> computer (because yes, score following is still a difficult task for

It all depens of the nature of the instrumental part. For an all 

written part with specific tape cues, it is certainly true. For semi- 

improvised sections with tight integration, a 'space bar player' (as 

is often the human behind the computer) is certainly in the way, and 

I think hybrid approach are the best, and I advocate for better DSP- 

trained composers so they can get rid of their musical assistant and 

do the integration at the composition stage, doing simple yet 

This was the bottom line of my presentation at ICMC...

> And the best score follower, including during Ircam concerts,  
> including in
> Boulez's last piece for violin and electronics, is a human being  
> behind the
> computer (because yes, score following is still a difficult task for
> computers, and they fail a lot).

It all depens of the nature of the instrumental part.  For an all  
written part with specific tape cues, it is certainly true.  For semi- 
improvised sections with tight integration, a 'space bar player' (as  
is often the human behind the computer) is certainly in the way, and  
slower.

I think hybrid approach are the best, and I advocate for better DSP- 
trained composers so they can get rid of their musical assistant and  
do the integration at the composition stage, doing simple yet  
efficient score 'following'...

How can I find more info about your ICMC presentation? The proceedings?

On 11/29/06, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:

> If I can add my 2 cents (too late if I cannot ;-)

> > And the best score follower, including during Ircam concerts,

> > Boulez's last piece for violin and electronics, is a human being

> > computer (because yes, score following is still a difficult task for

> It all depens of the nature of the instrumental part. For an all

> written part with specific tape cues, it is certainly true. For semi-

> improvised sections with tight integration, a 'space bar player' (as

> is often the human behind the computer) is certainly in the way, and

> I think hybrid approach are the best, and I advocate for better DSP-

> trained composers so they can get rid of their musical assistant and

> do the integration at the composition stage, doing simple yet

> This was the bottom line of my presentation at ICMC...

How can I find more info about your ICMC presentation?  The proceedings?

On 11/29/06, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay  wrote:
> If I can add my 2 cents (too late if I cannot ;-)
>
> > And the best score follower, including during Ircam concerts,
> > including in
> > Boulez's last piece for violin and electronics, is a human being
> > behind the
> > computer (because yes, score following is still a difficult task for
> > computers, and they fail a lot).
>
> It all depens of the nature of the instrumental part.  For an all
> written part with specific tape cues, it is certainly true.  For semi-
> improvised sections with tight integration, a 'space bar player' (as
> is often the human behind the computer) is certainly in the way, and
> slower.
>
> I think hybrid approach are the best, and I advocate for better DSP-
> trained composers so they can get rid of their musical assistant and
> do the integration at the composition stage, doing simple yet
> efficient score 'following'...
>
> This was the bottom line of my presentation at ICMC...
>
> pa
>


> I think hybrid approach are the best, and I advocate for better DSP- 

> trained composers so they can get rid of their musical assistant and do 

> the integration at the composition stage, doing simple yet efficient 

If a composer wants to get rid of musicians he'd better do all with 

machines... Like making the music with samples instead of musicians...

I can't see that this would benefit Music as a concept which needs to be 

Nobody needed to tell Colon Nancarrow to be trained on the player piano, 

nor would any Composer who has a different approach to composing would 

want to hear that real piano music should be composed for the player 

Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> I think hybrid approach are the best, and I advocate for better DSP- 
> trained composers so they can get rid of their musical assistant and do 
> the integration at the composition stage, doing simple yet efficient 
> score 'following'...

If a composer wants to get rid of musicians he'd better do all with 
machines... Like making the music with samples instead of musicians...
I can't see that this would benefit Music as a concept which needs to be 
advocated.
Nobody needed to tell Colon Nancarrow to be trained on the player piano, 
nor would any Composer who has a different approach to composing would 
want to hear that real piano music should be composed for the player 
piano...

I have never tried working on score following or tempo tracking, but I 

would assume that if tempo is changing continuously in a 

flexible/organic manner (e.g. rubato, acc. or rit.) and you try to do 

tempo detection, you would have to average, something that would 

obviously introduce a time lag when speed changes. From this you would 

then have to extrapolate to make predictions on where tempo is going 

based on current tendencies. I don't know how well that would work, but 

it would probably be very poor at dealing with abrupt changes.

> The issue of score following is not at all trivial, a bunch of 

> artificial intelligence is necessary. The simple way is to start 

> experimenting with [follow], it comes with Max and isn't bad at all. 

> It might suit your needs, if not, expect some years of learning the 

> subject. Certainly not a beginners project...

> Btw. I haven't found a really working/usable speed/BPM detector yet, 

> all averaging is just way behind. I do have some ideas about it, but 

> haven't found the time to implement them...

I have never tried working on score following or tempo tracking, but I 
would assume that if tempo is changing continuously in a 
flexible/organic manner (e.g. rubato, acc. or rit.) and you try to do 
tempo detection, you would have to average, something that would 
obviously introduce a time lag when speed changes. From this you would 
then have to extrapolate to make predictions on where tempo is going 
based on current tendencies. I don't know how well that would work, but 
it would probably be very poor at dealing with abrupt changes.

> The issue of score following is not at all trivial, a bunch of 
> artificial intelligence is necessary. The simple way is to start 
> experimenting with [follow], it comes with Max and isn't bad at all. 
> It might suit your needs, if not, expect some years of learning the 
> subject. Certainly not a beginners project...
>
> Btw. I haven't found a really working/usable speed/BPM detector yet, 
> all averaging is just way behind. I do have some ideas about it, but 
> haven't found the time to implement them...
> Its not as easy as often suggested...
>
> Stefan


Thanks Kasper, the comparison of orchestration is the one I used in 

"For those of us who are interested in the live integration of 

acoustic sources and electronic sounds, this means that we no longer 

have to rely on a musical assistant to program our ideas; we can 

subvert our algorithms to mould our artistic goal as we compose. I 

would compare this change of procedure to the mature use of 

orchestration by Berlioz and Ravel, who were using it no longer as a 

decorative feature, but as an intrinsic part of the compositional 

gesture. But such a rich universe of possibilities for the composer 

comes with its own set of questions, responsibilities and challenges."

Anyway, I agree that we should respect musical assistant of the '90s 

as co-composers in lots of situations, and that the role of a musical 

assistant today is much more a high flying coder and musician that 

can help optimise/improve a composer's technical integration.

This discussion has a CEC flavour ;-) It reminds me the good old 

time of the Max list hosted at McGill Uni...

Thanks Kasper, the comparison of orchestration is the one I used in  
the paper!

"For those of us who are interested in the live integration of  
acoustic sources and electronic sounds, this means that we no longer  
have to rely on a musical assistant to program our ideas; we can  
subvert our algorithms to mould our artistic goal as we compose. I  
would compare this change of procedure to the mature use of  
orchestration by Berlioz and Ravel, who were using it no longer as a  
decorative feature, but as an intrinsic part of the compositional  
gesture. But such a rich universe of possibilities for the composer  
comes with its own set of questions, responsibilities and challenges."

Anyway, I agree that we should respect musical assistant of the '90s  
as co-composers in lots of situations, and that the role of a musical  
assistant today is much more a high flying coder and musician that  
can help optimise/improve a composer's technical integration.

This discussion has a CEC flavour ;-)  It reminds me the good old  
time of the Max list hosted at McGill Uni...

But I think of the Max work not as composing, but as instrument 

building - this is like saying a composer who writes for violin must 

be able to build a violin. Certainly for me, the possibility to build 

an instrument (or instruments) to suit the needs of the composiition 

was one of the big things that made me do this at all (and I include 

the instruments I build for my improvised work in that) - but I never 

rule out the possibility of someone else working differently - indeed 

I have created electronic instruments for other composers on a number 

of occasions. It is possible to understand what you want without 

On 30 Nov 2006, at 13:31, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:

> not to say the musical assistent should not exist - but he should 

> be seen as a highly specialised instrumentist; in max terms someone 

> who writes a diificult part of a patch, a new object (in C or Java) 

> but not the one who designs the patch - that's composer's work (not 

> different than working with a solist - he knows more about his 

> instrument, but the composer has to know about it - and other 

Lawrence Casserley - lawrence@lcasserley.co.uk

Lawrence Electronic Operations - www.lcasserley.co.uk

Colourscape Music Festivals - www.colourscape.org.uk

But I think of the Max work not as composing, but as instrument  
building - this is like saying a composer who writes for violin must  
be able to build a violin. Certainly for me, the possibility to build  
an instrument (or instruments) to suit the needs of the composiition  
was one of the big things that made me do this at all (and I include  
the instruments I build for my improvised work in that) - but I never  
rule out the possibility of someone else working differently - indeed  
I have created electronic instruments for other composers on a number  
of occasions. It is possible to understand what you want without  
knowing how to make it happen.

> not to say the musical assistent should not exist - but he should  
> be seen as a highly specialised instrumentist; in max terms someone  
> who writes a diificult part of a patch, a new object (in C or Java)  
> but not the one who designs the patch - that's composer's work (not  
> different than working with a solist - he knows more about his  
> instrument, but the composer has to know about it - and other  
> instruments - as well

Lawrence Casserley - lawrence@lcasserley.co.uk
Lawrence Electronic Operations - www.lcasserley.co.uk
Colourscape Music Festivals - www.colourscape.org.uk

> But I think of the Max work not as composing, but as instrument 

for me the integration is beyond instrument making... a musical 

gesture can be influenced by technological concerns and vice versa.

That said, my luthier is working actively with performers to improve 

the design of his boutique basses and guitars, and himself is a 

practising musician. Violins are too old to be improved, (actually 

the improvements were done long ago ;-) but younger instruments like 

mine are in never-ending redesign... Max allows a customisation of 

the instrument to fit the musical needs of a piece (or in my case, or 

a specific gesture of a specific movement of a specific piece)

> But I think of the Max work not as composing, but as instrument  
> building -

for me the integration is beyond instrument making... a musical  
gesture can be influenced by technological concerns and vice versa.

That said, my luthier is working actively with performers to improve  
the design of his boutique basses and guitars, and himself is a  
practising musician. Violins are too old to be improved, (actually  
the improvements were done long ago ;-) but younger instruments like  
mine are in never-ending redesign... Max allows a customisation of  
the instrument to fit the musical needs of a piece (or in my case, or  
a specific gesture of a specific movement of a specific piece)

>But I think of the Max work not as composing, but as instrument building -

certainly working with a computer as instrument did change my way of 

writing (and thinking) the music - the change from thinking in 

"notes" (a straight line) to thinking in frequencies (exponantial) is 

my instrument is the computer, not the max patch. The max patch is 

the "score" (or the preparation of the instument, the "tuning") for 

each piece (each one of my pieces uses a diiferent patch, which 

>this is like saying a composer who writes for violin must be able to 

not "build" it - but tune it, know how it works; know its ambitus, 

scordatura, possibilities, where teh harmonics are... all this stuff

> It is possible to understand what you want without knowing how to 

yes but in such a case you can only "want" what you already know. you 

can not "discover" a new way of playing an instrument with only 

samples of the instrument - you clearly have to relate to the real 

TOUGH! How can I make a controller "hear" my voice?