David Zicarelli

About three years ago at a company meeting in San Francisco, we began thinking about selling our software on a subscription basis. During the first me

Why We Are Trying (Optional) Subscription Pricing

[See the full post at: Why We Are Trying (Optional) Subscription Pricing]


why-we-are-trying-optional-subscription-pricing

If i chose " subscription " I make my payment for say two , three, six months, one year and you suddenly canceled what is now called "experiment" ... ( it seems neither clear in the section " shop" ) then I'll feel a little, I have been scammed.

As a buyer, I'm probably not the right person to respond, but while I think the subscription model is a very noble thing to introduce, the fundamental difference with the house or car reference is that you pay for those over time and then eventually you stop paying because you own it. It's actually what put me off learning Photoshop. The idea that I could potentially pay for it or an indefinite amount of time, yet end up having to pay a lot of money once more if I finally wanted to own it.

I'd be interested to know what c74 would say if you pay x amount per month for Max 7, then Max 8 comes out and you end up not wanting to use it (prob rounded corners again). Would you still have to buy it outright?

That's where it gets tricky for me. I'd be happy to pay a little bit more over time for the subscription say, 20% more, but I agree with unfionioneeinos, it wouldn't be nice to know you have paid for something that you never really own.

edit - Though it does make a lot of sense for people who just want to dabble.

I'd be interested to know what c74 would say if you pay x amount per month for Max 7, then Max 8 comes out and you end up not wanting to use it (prob rounded corners again). Would you still have to buy it outright?  

edit - Though it does make a lot of sense for people who just want to dabble.


A fundamental difference here is that you don't simultaneously get updates for your house. You have to pay for those separately.

I think this dual subscription/purchase approach is fantastic. And I think you hit the price points right on the head, calculating back to the Max 6 date of release and extrapolating to Max 8.

A fundamental difference here is that you don’t simultaneously get updates for your house.

And actually a bad thing according to this community: no one would want to get updates to their house simultaneously in this fashion, anyways, because these would be updates they never ask for and have no say in.

Don't get me wrong, i like the updates, but others here seem like even if they paid to eventually own it, AND got these updates, they wouldn't be happy with these updates anyways(have you not read the high-maintenance on these forums lately?! then again, who are we kidding, these are the type of people who can never be happy :D)

But i have no complaint here, only devil's advocacy >;D

(As long as Cycling74 is not creating a credit-card to help you pay for Max, i don't think any real harm will be done to society ;D) ...i will always go for the upgrade price, because it's smarter, but software-subscription does actually mean that folks in the 3rd-world who can barely afford a computer, might be able to join this community now (and showing all of us how high-maintenance we really are for not figuring out anything cool about Max7 yet and only focusing on 'looks and appearances' like most people in the 1st world do with actual people muahahahahahahahaaaaaa! *cough* *wheeze* *oh god i'm dyin!* *cough* *wheeeeeeze* muahahaha! >;D)

i'd love a subscription-applied-towards-payment-of-ownership-pricing deal ;D

(^ah, looking back, i'm kinda proud of that rant... do you all not see the incredible skill with which i have argued myself in a full circle?! ;p)

^That's irrelevant.
And actually a bad thing according to this community: no one would want to get updates to their house simultaneously in this fashion, anyways, because these would be updates they never ask for and have no say in.
Don't get me wrong, i like the updates, but others here seem like even if they paid to eventually own it, AND got these updates, they wouldn't be happy with these updates anyways(have you not read the high-maintenance on these forums lately?! then again, who are we kidding, these are the type of people who can never be happy :D)

But i have no complaint here, only devil's advocacy >;D
(As long as Cycling74 is not creating a credit-card to help you pay for Max, i don't think any real harm will be done to society ;D) ...i will always go for the upgrade price, because it's smarter, but software-subscription does actually mean that folks in the 3rd-world who can barely afford a computer, might be able to join this community now (and showing all of us how high-maintenance we really are for not figuring out anything cool about Max7 yet and only focusing on 'looks and appearances' like most people in the 1st world do with actual people muahahahahahahahaaaaaa! *cough* *wheeze* *oh god i'm dyin!* *cough* *wheeeeeeze* muahahaha! >;D)

(^ah, looking back, i'm kinda proud of that rant... do you all not see the incredible skill with which i have argued myself in a full circle?! ;p)


The subscription model is a two edged sword for me (as a potential buyer).

I don't have money to buy max7 for now, either i stop using max for a few months and save up the money to buy a licence or borrow some money to buy it.

Subscription allows me to use max for as long as i need it and doesn't break the bank.

Some concerns about this payment model come to mind:

- If i purchase a subscription for a year and you decide to end the subscription model before the end of my period what happens to my license/money?

- Do i need to be online every time i want to edit a patch (and save it)? If so, this is not as good, for let's imagine i go for a small trip to the countryside and take my laptop with me and work on some patches in the free time; if i don't have network access i don't have a chance to save my work (and getting the feeling i have bought a handicapped max).

I currently am using the demo, and trying to decide if and which license i buy.

The subscription model is a two edged sword for me (as a potential buyer).
I don't have money to buy max7 for now, either i stop using max for a few months and save up the money to buy a licence or borrow some money to buy it.
Subscription allows me to use max for as long as i need it and doesn't break the bank.

Some concerns about this payment model come to mind:
- If i purchase a subscription for a year and you decide to end the subscription model before the end of my period what happens to my license/money?

I currently am using the demo, and trying to decide if and which license i buy.


Do i need to be online every time i want to edit a patch (and save it)?

Doesn't even work that way while i've started only the 'trial' period(i don't leave my wifi on like most people, i'm very paranoid, but i've been editing and saving patches like mad lately during the trial while being offline for hours). Surely, you can try it out yourself and see the answer is obvious.

(if not, Andrew Pask's answers in this thread are also helpful: 

https://cycling74.com/forums/literal-show-stopper-concern-about-authentication/

Doesn't even work that way while i've started only the 'trial' period(i don't leave my wifi on like most people, i'm very paranoid, but i've been editing and saving patches like mad lately during the trial while being offline for hours). Surely, you can try it out yourself and see the answer is obvious.
(if not, Andrew Pask's answers in this thread are also helpful: https://cycling74.com/forums/literal-show-stopper-concern-about-authentication/ )


How about rent to own? You pay monthly and then when you've paid a certain amount you own it outright.

Remember that for people of so-called third world,

the price of this software (subscription or Full) will be more than ten times more expensive.

Still it remains desirable subscription system provided it is maintained.

And do not make me pay more for Max 7 500u $ s ( if I pay a year's subscription , then this system is suspended ) .

Remember that for people of so-called third world,
the price of this software (subscription or Full) will be more than ten times more expensive.
Still it remains desirable subscription system provided it is maintained.
And do not make me pay more for Max 7 500u $ s ( if I pay a year's subscription , then this system is suspended ) .


Something like : When the total amount you paid for the subscription price reaches full license for say ... "Full license price x 1.25" ...

then the user gets a full license. (maybe not the right discount for the next version ... )

Something like : When the total amount you paid for the subscription price reaches full license for say ... "Full license price x 1.25" ...
then the user gets a full license. (maybe not the right discount for the next version ... )


@TOPONIMA I'think this would make subscriptions significantly more sexy :)

Subscriptions might be interesting for some of my students. Between workshops/classes there are sometimes weeks or even a month in this case the trial had an uncomfortable limitation.

And let's not forget - it's just a new extra option, so in fact nothing has changed. As David said, they are experimenting, let's see how it develops.

@TOPONIMA I'think this would make subscriptions significantly more sexy :) 

I am one of those people who can never afford the full cost of the product, but I also have a hard time going with a subscription because I know I will overpay in time. I would prefer to have the best of both worlds which is to with a subscription based model to own the full version but pay $449.99 for the full version and $349.99 for the Max4Live owners. You may cancel the monthly payments at anytime and if missed 30 day payment your subscription is suspended and if missed 90 all payments towards the full version is set to 0. If you come out with Max8 during the payments, you are able to upgrade to the new version for an additional $150.00. Now I would jump on board with this model.

I am one of those people who can never afford the full cost of the product, but I also have a hard time going with a subscription because I know I will overpay in time.  I would prefer to have the best of both worlds which is to with a subscription based model to own the full version but pay $449.99 for the full version and $349.99 for the Max4Live owners.  You may cancel the monthly payments at anytime and if missed 30 day payment your subscription is suspended and if missed 90 all payments towards the full version is set to 0.  If you come out with Max8 during the payments, you are able to upgrade to the new version for an additional $150.00.  Now I would jump on board with this model.


To us it's about trying to provide the option that fits your needs. If you know, like me, that Max is a part of your life and you want to just own it, go for the purchase. If you want to use Max right now, but don't want to commit for a big purchase, go for the subscription. If you want a monthly payment to own Max, you can always buy it with a low-APR credit card. ;)

To us it's about trying to provide the option that fits your needs. If you know, like me, that Max is a part of your life and you want to just own it, go for the purchase.  If you want to use Max right now, but don't want to commit for a big purchase, go for the subscription.  If you want a monthly payment to own Max, you can always buy it with a low-APR credit card. ;)


If you want a monthly payment to own Max, you can always buy it with a low-APR credit card. ;)

That's true for the US. European credit cards don't work like that. Here, by the end of the month the total amount spent is booked from your checking account. Payment by installments is usually provided by the vendor of a product 'cause you might have a hard time to get a loan for 'only' 400 EUR with reasonable conditions from your bank. (Probably the reason why credit cards are less popular here ;) )

Fascinating. That seems like a much more sensible system, given the number of Americans living with crippling credit card debts.

don't worry we have our own ways to get into financial trouble... :)

Yeah the dubble edged swort of a subscription model everybody is talking about seems to be: after a while it should be converted into a purchase. Because also, shouldn't the money you've put into it, after you tried it for a while and decide to own it, be deducted from the price?

For me: I pay the upgrade price because it is totally worth it. (And the price is right). But these are things to consider...

I seldom give my point of view here, but this is a great addition to Max.

When I'm not making music, I develop for different theatre/dance companies and then let my work live with their shows.

Each time I teach a little bit of Max to someone in the company for them to be able to handle the details during their production/tour.

For now on I made standalone application and had to handle all scenarios.

With the new demo/runtime and this monthly subscription it will be perfect.

For those companies, even the smallest, 10$/month is not much, they can have a license that lasts the length of the production, then later have a license that covers the tour.

This is great, I beg you'll have a lot of new maxers, I'll spread the word for sure.

I seldom give my point of view here, but this is a great addition to Max.
When I'm not making music, I develop for different theatre/dance companies and then let my work live with their shows.
Each time I teach a little bit of Max to someone in the company for them to be able to handle the details during their production/tour.
For now on I made standalone application and had to handle all scenarios.
With the new demo/runtime and this monthly subscription it will be perfect.
For those companies, even the smallest, 10$/month is not much, they can have a license that lasts the length of the production, then later have a license that covers the tour.
This is great, I beg you'll have a lot of new maxers, I'll spread the word for sure.

Leo
(Happy maxer since max 3.9.something)


immerse (one's hands or feet) partially in water and move them around gently : they dabbled their feet in the rock pools.

• [ intrans. ] (of a duck or other waterbird) move the bill around in shallow water while feeding : teal dabble in the shallows.

• [ intrans. ] figurative take part in an activity in a casual or superficial way : he dabbled in writing as a young man.

ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from obsolete Dutch dabbelen, or a frequentative of the verb dab 1 .

Ok sorry for the language lesson but this describes my usage of the application in which we now discuss. I am a max 'dabbler'. A musician and teacher by trade but I also love the sciences, and Max has occasionally bridged that gap for me, and perhaps a good number of users here. But I am also a regular person who doesn't have the expendable income or time to take up every hobby that strikes my fancy. Max has been an "on again off again" affair for me. And for this reason I wholly welcome and applaud the decision to make it a rentable option. As a student of the violin or many such fine instruments it would be a given that you rent this instrument as well as partake in paying for instruction to learn this on a monthly basis. You practice, you begin to excel, and you eventually decide to make a larger investment in your newly developing craft. Or you do not practice, you don't excel, and you terminate your original investment. As a once aspiring musician, you leave the transaction with no ill will. Conscious that you met the task at hand, but circumstance kept you from fulfilling its needs and you leave the endeavor far less poor than you would have been by making a hasty purchase of something that you weren't ready for. On the chance that you were to excel, you may have now stepped into a world where you can express and accomplish things in a way that you were not able to before. You have learned a new skill and you can pay for its necessary upkeep, or you can move on to something else.

Personally I may choose to pursue my hobby of computer based audio manipulation via max/msp, and just maybe I'll create some kick ass patches that end up as part of some great installment at the Louvre, or maybe just a silly youtube video, or even a shitty CocaCola commercial. Or maybe I'll have a nice time cursing at my computer for the next few months, and then when I'm fed up, I can take a break from Max having only wasted 40 bucks as opposed to whatever. And hopefully when I'm old and retired I can still use Max(versionx.x) as a substitute for Lumosity.

dabble |ˈdabəl|
verb [ trans. ]
immerse (one's hands or feet) partially in water and move them around gently : they dabbled their feet in the rock pools.
• [ intrans. ] (of a duck or other waterbird) move the bill around in shallow water while feeding : teal dabble in the shallows.
• [ intrans. ] figurative take part in an activity in a casual or superficial way : he dabbled in writing as a young man.
DERIVATIVES
dabbler |ˈdab(ə)lər| noun
ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from obsolete Dutch dabbelen, or a frequentative of the verb dab 1 .

     Ok sorry for the language lesson but this describes my usage of the application in which we now discuss.  I am a max 'dabbler'.  A musician and teacher by trade but I also love the sciences, and Max has occasionally bridged that gap for me, and perhaps a good number of users here.  But I am also a regular person who doesn't have the expendable income or time to take up every hobby that strikes my fancy.  Max has been an "on again off again" affair for me.  And for this reason I wholly welcome and applaud the decision to make it a rentable option.  As a student of the violin or many such fine instruments it would be a given that you rent this instrument as well as partake in paying for instruction to learn this on a monthly basis.  You practice, you begin to excel, and you eventually decide to make a larger investment in your newly developing craft.  Or you do not practice, you don't excel, and you terminate your original investment.  As a once aspiring musician, you leave the transaction with no ill will. Conscious that you met the task at hand, but circumstance kept you from fulfilling its needs and you leave the endeavor far less poor than you would have been by making a hasty purchase of something that you weren't ready for.  On the chance that you were to excel, you may have now stepped into a world where you can express and accomplish things in a way that you were not able to before. You have learned a new skill and you can pay for its necessary upkeep, or you can move on to something else.

     Personally I may choose to pursue my hobby of computer based audio manipulation via max/msp, and just maybe I'll create some kick ass patches that end up as part of some great installment at the Louvre, or maybe just a silly youtube video, or even a shitty CocaCola commercial.  Or maybe I'll have a nice time cursing at my computer for the next few months, and then when I'm fed up, I can take a break from Max having only wasted 40 bucks as opposed to whatever. And hopefully when I'm old and retired I can still use Max(versionx.x) as a substitute for Lumosity.


I stopped to upgrade Adobe products for the same reason.

I totally agree with @UNFUNFIONN.
I stopped to upgrade Adobe products for the same reason.


Just wanted to give a positive point of view here

I can't afford the full price of Max up front , can afford a tenner a month. Have wanted it for ages - as soon as I saw the subscription signed up. So a new user here that wouldn't ordinarily be here.

I think subscription is good because it will draw in new users/ younger people/ those in economies where you just dont have hundreds of dollars US to spare. A bigger userbase and the constant cash flow will (hopefully) mean cycling can keep developing the software quickly, and supporting it well.

That said, the OCD part of me would have paid another 50/100 bucks in order that my (full) purchase didnt need occasional re-validation via internet to continue functioning. Cycling have a good reputation and have been around a while, so im not too worried, but i think the re-validation requirement would have put me off if offerred by a lesser known company.

I think subscription is good because it will draw in new users/ younger people/ those in economies where you just dont have hundreds of dollars US to spare. A bigger userbase and the constant cash flow will (hopefully) mean cycling can keep developing the software quickly, and supporting it well.
That said, the OCD part of me would have paid another 50/100 bucks in order that my (full) purchase didnt need occasional re-validation via internet to continue functioning. Cycling have a good reputation and have been around a while, so im not too worried, but i think the re-validation requirement would have put me off if offerred by a lesser known company.


Just to share my experience: Yesteday I ran an installation on a theatre stage for a full day on Max 7 (trial) without any problems. Max was algorythmically controlling the lights (via MIDI hooked up to a DMX controller) and a 4-channel audio system.

Out of curiosity I turned WIFI on the first half of the day, the second half my laptop was running with WIFI switched off. No problems through home calls in the background (actually no problems at all).

Just to share my experience: Yesteday I ran an installation on a theatre stage for a full day on Max 7 (trial) without any problems. Max was algorythmically controlling the lights (via MIDI hooked up to a DMX controller) and a 4-channel audio system.
Out of curiosity I turned WIFI on the first half of the day, the second half my laptop was running with WIFI switched off. No problems through home calls in the background (actually no problems at all).

That’s true for the US. European credit cards don’t work like that. Here, by the end of the month the total amount spent is booked from your checking account.

I think Jan is talking about Germany, which is--first of all--not all of Europe. Installment payments on credit card bills seemed to be a pretty common modality when I lived in the UK. And banking customs have variations in every other European country.

More to the point, even in Germany many CC providers offer installment payments--both my German VISA card and my old (now closed) MasterCard account at the Postbank offer installment payments, typically at monthly 10% of total bill or €50 (whichever is smaller). Given the going APRs, I've avoided these like the plague.

Jan, I'd be curious to know which CC provider you're using, just to have the option of changing to one who 

 bombard me with mails offering installment payments.-)

Jan, I'd be curious to know which CC provider you're using, just to have the option of changing to one who doesn't bombard me with mails offering installment payments.-)


Hi Peter, I am living in Spain (Barcelona) and I am using Visa with LaCaixa, unless you are putting down a leg here (which I can highly recommend, not only because of the weather - we have a very young, open and enthusiastic electronic art/music scene here with a lot of potential :)) ) this doesn't seem to be an option for you ... :)

Having more than one option is always a good thing, plus being able to get a license for the length of a project, given max's nature as a multifaceted tool is useful.

I think it would be good for cycling to check what Magix did a few years back with their own renting scheme for Samplitude and learn from their mistakes.

When renting something for long it is inevitable to get a feeling of ownership, perhaps they should address this somehow.

Personally i find more of concern the absence of an upgrade price for people that already had bought Gen

A symbolic reduction would suffice. The fact that this is not addressed is for me a let down.

I don't think the renting scheme would be a solution for 'third world country' max users. Not even an effort to that direction really....

Having more than one option is always a good thing, plus being able to get a license for the length of a project, given max's nature as a multifaceted tool is useful.
I think it would be good for cycling to check what Magix did a few years back with their own renting scheme for Samplitude and learn from their mistakes.
When renting something for long it is inevitable to get a feeling of ownership, perhaps they should address this somehow.

Personally i find more of concern the absence of an upgrade price for people that already had bought Gen
A symbolic reduction would suffice. The fact that this is not addressed is for me a let down.

P.s
I don't think the renting scheme would be a solution for 'third world country' max users. Not even an effort to that direction really....


I use MAX since 2008. Always buy every new version.

It is a very serious software, and its real potential is for serious users.

If Cycling74 wanna extend its customer market to more common users, and keep both kinds of users pleased, then I suggest the following:

+ Make 2 MAX versions: LITE and Professional.

+ LITE version wont have some of the features or objects the common user will never use/understand anyway.

+ Subscription is meant for the LITE version.

+ You could rise the price of the full version. Pro users (like me) will pay (with pleasure), and you deserve it!

I believe MAX is a very powerful tool for DSP Engineers (I often prefer MAX over MATLAB), and its a pity Cycling 74 do not promote (and fit better) the product to this market too.

Young musicians who want to try-out-everything, and get MAX access, should pay LESS/MONTHLY - and get LESS/MONTHLY. They DONT NEED ALL of MAX, and might decide to stop using it after a while.

Professional EM Musicians and Engineers, DSP Programmers and Algorithm-Developers, Speech Analysts, Universities EE Departments etc. include a HUGE potential user market, that never heard of MAX, and would LOVE to use it, over the existing tools. They will pay MORE/PERMANENT, for full MAX aiming more to engineering needs.

You put a lot of effort in promoting MAX to the common Musicians market (new website look for exp.), and you forget the hardcore engineers users. I watch it getting more and more to the Hobby-Musicians side from year to year. Monthly-Subscription is a big step toward loosing the engineers market imo. ppl just cant see, by first impression, how serious and professional tool MAX really is! They think its just "another" kind of music software (like NI Reactor). I see it every day. Its a real pity!

Both types of users will earn more, as well as you guys in Cycling 74.

Hope my comment will get to Mr. Zicarelli.

I use MAX since 2008. Always buy every new version.
Students prices are very decent imho.

It is a very serious software, and its real potential is for serious users.
If Cycling74 wanna extend its customer market to more common users, and keep both kinds of users pleased, then I suggest the following:

+ Make 2 MAX versions: LITE and Professional.
+ LITE version wont have some of the features or objects the common user will never use/understand anyway.
+ Subscription is meant for the LITE version.
+ You could rise the price of the full version. Pro users (like me) will pay (with pleasure), and you deserve it!

Hope my comment will get to Mr. Zicarelli.


how could a 'lite' version possibly work if max functionality is based on externals, written in a number of different languages (C, java, js) and which 'bits' of max would you cripple in the lite version, jitter? audio? gen? third party? sqlite? opengl? it would go against the scenario that LÉOPOLD FREY outlines, where subscription is perfect for contract work, and all functionality is required

Welp. I'm broke. I've way overspent on christmas presents, and now my 1 month trial is up. So even though I'm a max6 owner, I could push my upgrade to max7 for a month by subscribing. So for 10 euro-ish I get essentially a micro-loan until january.

I am one of these users who never could afford the full license and skipped max for this reason. In the past a lot focused in ableton live (and Ms. pinky maxforlive patch) I had the live suite license and use it to learn max until I get without computer and sold the suite...

Now with this system and after skip max6, I feel encouraged to try again and make my own vj app with v-module/vizzable, Ms. Pinky (and maxforlive patches) and max7 new timestretching/pitchshifting and Beap modules... I will start with the trial but I expect make some useful soon (due I'm not total newbie and blank page syndrome didn't stuck me in fear or holyfuck mind) and then no more runtime could be perfect (until I want to implement something new to my set and expent extra 10 bucks and voilâ!

For those coders who feel themselves cheated with the pluggo/maxforlive focus against logic or so... It will be a second opportunity not needing a copy of ableton to run maxforlive patches (anyone said monome?). Also considering the chance to implement max7 with Mainstage 3 (30 bucks) and garageband (free on osx) is a dealbreaker... For students (mac mini is affordable nowadays if we take in consideration the apps which come included)

For the professional target I think it will be fair some kind of "leasing" policy with automatic upgrade if new version comes (not sure about how to segment prices between student and pro... Maybe edu? But what about non formal students like me?)

In anyway includding some ready to use abstractions (like vj mixer, full step secuencer...) without the need to patch anything (or maybe teach the basics to understand what is under the hood but keeping the playable flow over the lesson) could be useful from newbie pov. I know is against the max spirit itself but I will loved it 11 years ago when I purchased Ms. Pinky and had to deal with runtime and understand what the hell was these program called maxmsp 4.5 and how to set it up to start playing my own tunes on pinky vinyls...

For the professional target I think it will be fair some kind of "leasing" policy with automatic upgrade if new version comes (not sure about how to segment prices between student and pro... Maybe edu? But what about non formal students like me?) 

In anyway includding some ready to use abstractions (like vj mixer, full step secuencer...) without the need to patch anything (or maybe teach the basics to understand what is under the hood but keeping the playable flow over the lesson) could be useful from newbie pov. I know is against the max spirit itself but I will loved it 11 years ago when I purchased Ms. Pinky and had to deal with runtime and understand what the hell was these program called maxmsp 4.5 and how to set it up to start playing my own tunes on pinky vinyls...
