Luke Stark

. Maybe we can have a rational discussion about how to consolidate "don't bother me with this" questions in some forum for novices. I would be happy to help facilitate this somehow.

I believe people who discover Max are generally savvy enough to use google and other tools to search for answers to their questions, (I think I am) but the reality that some questions keep surfacing (repeatedly, exhaustively, annoyingly) just seems to indicate that certain concepts are tricky or confusing. The current documentation is not perfect (though I point to the Max docs as an example of great documentation to people who ask *me* questions) and the threads that come back in search results are often arguments over distinctions that newcomers don't have the domain knowledge to understand. Mix that with the passion present in the multitude of Max experts leads to finding threads that not obviously helpful, leading to further confusion.

I've sat with this post for about 30 minutes, waffling with my mouse over the submit button, trying to decide if posting it will lead to discussion about how to address the pain-points in engaging with this community or if it will just be noise diluting the Max forum.

(And OP will eventually be compared to hitler, as is internet tradition.)

I am really sorry I precipitated this thread. Maybe we can have a rational discussion about how to consolidate "don't bother me with this" questions in some forum for novices. I would be happy to help facilitate this somehow.

I've sat with this post for about 30 minutes, waffling with my mouse over the submit button, trying to decide if posting it will lead to discussion about how to address the pain-points in engaging with this community or if it will just be noise diluting the Max forum. 

wow-i-always-get-the-answers-i-need-here-but-am-loath-to-posting-questions

(don't forget to add, searches are relative to already knowing proper terms to search for, searching on google is different than here, and finally the info. all becomes hazy over time since more frequented and more recent threads will overtake the search... so it's not your fault whether you search or not, thread-topics will be both recreated and revisited, either way...

this is the way the subjective world of the internet works, you don't need to care if threads lead to arguments or not...(also, if someone dislikes a thread, why not ignore it entirely instead of raising awareness to it even more?) it's all part of this virtual nature, too: a thicker skin is needed anyways for such a place of desensitization as the internet, if things like comfort and etiquette are not perceived the same 'world-wide' in real life to begin with, it can't be expected on the world-wide-web either. forums are not the same as docs. eccentricity in the presentation of information is to be expected/accepted(otherwise, the link should not be called 'community', but 'fascism' 

(don't forget to add, searches are relative to already knowing proper terms to search for, searching on google is different than here, and finally the info. all becomes hazy over time since more frequented and more recent threads will overtake the search... so it's not your fault whether you search or not, thread-topics will be both recreated and revisited, either way...
this is the way the subjective world of the internet works, you don't need to care if threads lead to arguments or not...(also, if someone dislikes a thread, why not ignore it entirely instead of raising awareness to it even more?) it's all part of this virtual nature, too: a thicker skin is needed anyways for such a place of desensitization as the internet, if things like comfort and etiquette are not perceived the same 'world-wide' in real life to begin with, it can't be expected on the world-wide-web either. forums are not the same as docs. eccentricity in the presentation of information is to be expected/accepted(otherwise, the link should not be called 'community', but 'fascism' 


Experts see things in a way that newcomers don't. And those newcomers consequently ask questions/pose scenarios that others might not consider, which gives rise to "new" questions. The documentation is great I think, as are the object helpfiles; the online Cycling74 tutorials are a little scrappy and intermittent, as they cannot cover every single use-scenario. Books are good too.

This reply was heavily edited. I did my usual stunt of not reading the initial post thoroughly.

I've got a soft spot for newcomers of all abilities, because it's a really exciting time when you're absorbing all this information and thinking of how to create. There's something beautiful in that, so I say forget the inflated egos and posturing - if you have questions keep posting them.

along with the new calendar feature i'm using max7 to consolidate something i've done for a while, keep a diary of anything i don't know or understand that feels serious or important and then move on.

i don't say this to tell people to shut up and figure it out yourself. to me, the questions that always get asked in any context are some of the most interesting, right up there with the questions that never get asked. :) it's more when i use the internet i seem to end up with "solutions that don't solve, explanations that don't explain and answers that don't answer." lol and it's not that enjoyable or useful to me...

or uhh more practically, chat rooms? something of that nature? the internet and data is like the worst horder ever. my post here doesn't need to exist in perpetuity taking up space. or like a copy compressed option for posts. :) so if n when there is "good" information it's moved somewhere and presented w/o all the fun lively bs that keeps forums moving and active, but when people want to consult the oracle for advice they can have a better chance of being presented w/ what they're looking for. or it's a place to point people asking the question along w/ any meta discussion on the nature of the question.

for instance, maybe separate or highlight anything with patch examples because at least someone can poke around? if someone was still stuck they could post saying "i looked at this patch and i get x+y wtf is up with z?" then that feeds back to help people in the future.

anyone have tips for writing good pedagogical patches? honestly i don't feel super motivated working to solve someone else's question, but writing a patch that explains how to solve? i'd like to improve that skill for my own sake...

dunno i feel we are entering the white ages or something where instead of ignorance due to destruction and obstruction of knowledge we are getting blinded by too much data. stem the tide or surf the wave? :)

along with the new calendar feature i'm using max7 to consolidate something i've done for a while, keep a diary of anything i don't know or understand that feels serious or important and then move on. 

or uhh more practically, chat rooms? something of that nature? the internet and data is like the worst horder ever. my post here doesn't need to exist in perpetuity taking up space. or like a copy compressed option for posts. :) so if n when there is "good" information it's moved somewhere and presented w/o all the fun lively bs that keeps forums moving and active, but when people want to consult the oracle for advice they can have a better chance of being presented w/ what they're looking for. or it's a place to point people asking the question along w/ any meta discussion on the nature of the question. 

dunno i feel we are entering the white ages or something where instead of ignorance due to destruction and obstruction of knowledge we are getting blinded by too much data. stem the tide or surf the wave? :)


"anyone have tips for writing good pedagogical patches? honestly i don’t feel super motivated working to solve someone else’s question, but writing a patch that explains how to solve?"

I think that's what the Help files aim to do, but I often don't find them that helpful; it still takes a lot of stuffing around and experimenting to make sense of some things.

So maybe there needs to be 2 levels of explanation: (1) an expert level for those who are already good at Max and who just want the essentials, not the "hold my hand and lead me through it, please" stuff, and (2) a beginner level for those (often like me) who haven't got a clue, have not done a tertiary-level course in Max, and need things spelled out.

Thinking about it, maybe those 2 levels kinda correspond to the Reference and the Help files? The Reference documents are pretty brief, and the Help files often give examples.

Maybe just more examples with more thorough explanations is what's needed? e.g. I'd LOVE a beginner's level explanation of anything to do with pitch detection - that's a subject that often comes up, and sometimes from people who don't even know what to call it. For me it's DEFINITELY not enough to be told how to change the "hop" and "npts", etc. I haven't got a clue what those things are and how they affect the accuracy of the result. And being told to "experiment till you find the settings that work best for you" is pretty unhelpful; it makes for a LOT of hard (guess)work.

More advanced users will always get bothered by newbies question. That's how human psyche works i think, and it's more obvious in her because Max unites people of very different background, levels and aims. Newbies should get over with that, should not be scared to endlessly ask the same newboes questions, because yes hte documentation can be lacking, and i know it's difficult. The truth is even i get a first rush of "what is this stupid question" (or get infuriated when a patch is not compressed before pasted... the compressing system needs to be learned about) sometimes and, thinking it over, it makes sense that 

 is asking that ; i would probably have asked that kind of things some years back.

Besides, speaking with text is not speaking, and everything that is non verbal communication gets lost, and some of the verbal things as well ; so there is few place for understanding each other's emotions.

So in short : if you feel new to the game, and are welcomed with a burst of angrinness, remember that anrgy person might just have had a bad day; or be someone who is often angry, or someone who's trying to make cryptic humour ( !...), or someone who thinks he uses the right english word when he doesn't (in case of non native speakers like i) ; most of the time you're not at fault :)

my 2 cents :
More advanced users will always get bothered by newbies question. That's how human psyche works i think, and it's more obvious in her because Max unites people of very different background, levels and aims. Newbies should get over with that, should not be scared to endlessly ask the same newboes questions, because yes hte documentation can be lacking, and i know it's difficult. The truth is even i get a first rush of "what is this stupid question" (or get infuriated when a patch is not compressed before pasted... the compressing system needs to be learned about) sometimes and, thinking it over, it makes sense that someone is asking that ; i would probably have asked that kind of things some years back.
Besides, speaking with text is not speaking, and everything that is non verbal communication gets lost, and some of the verbal things as well ; so there is few place for understanding each other's emotions.
So in short : if you feel new to the game, and are welcomed with a burst of angrinness, remember that anrgy person might just have had a bad day; or be someone who is often angry, or someone who's trying to make cryptic humour ( !...), or someone who thinks he uses the right english word when he doesn't (in case of non native speakers like i) ; most of the time you're not at fault :)


someone who's trying to make cryptic humour ( !…)

(noone need take anything i ever say seriously, i've never actually posted in anger. sorry if i offend anyone(though i am most rude to those who remind me of me :D ...at least how i am here on these forums :p it's easier to manage the possibility of ongoing argument between 2 similar characters by placing a boundary of enmity between them... at least while everything exists in literary forms))

i am not one of these 'experts' people talk of(i belong to no camp! i am RENEGADE!!), but i have allergic reactions to exhibitions of pride and narcissism: it makes me break out in further exhibitions of pride and narcissism ;p

whether a newbie is making an impetuous feature-request(would be more polite to save them 'til one is at least 'intermediately' familiar with all the ramifications/workarounds in the environ :p), or an expert is trying to fluff his own dick over his knowledge of a very subjectively designed(therefore always eccentric in some way) visual programming environment, i suddenly feel it is my duty to use the internet for what it's best at: exhibit pride and narcissism ;D it sometimes has a nice side-effect in my real life: i have an easier time learning new things because my pride, the greatest block to open-minded reception, remains defiled, therefore stifled, by my internet existence O_o (8-D )

...but there is no intent by me to do anything beyond that, certainly no intent to have any real/lasting effect on anyone else besides myself.

(for me, the most crucial form of introspection is learning not to take yourself so seriously... if others aren't keyed into that, they may accidentally take it too personally... nothing i can do bout that except offer apologies in advance :D)

but y'all should try it sometime! the internet was not built for introspection, but if i were to try to use it for that, this might be one way to do it >;D

#End-Of-Raja's-Self-Aggrandizing-Explanations...For-Now

Good thread, btw, has a nice, warm, coming-together in a group-orgy feeling >:D

(you should never be sorry for a thread or a post, that's like being sorry for having any random thought... and anyone who would ever judge you by mere text, as if that was all the 'appearances' they needed for a quick 1st impression, would never make an important 'real' friend anyways, so it's not necessary to put that much care into it in the first place, misunderstanding will happen no matter what.)

(noone need take anything i ever say seriously, i've never actually posted in anger. sorry if i offend anyone(though i am most rude to those who remind me of me :D ...at least how i am here on these forums :p it's easier to manage the possibility of ongoing argument between 2 similar characters by placing a boundary of enmity between them... at least while everything exists in literary forms))
i am not one of these 'experts' people talk of(i belong to no camp! i am RENEGADE!!), but i have allergic reactions to exhibitions of pride and narcissism: it makes me break out in further exhibitions of pride and narcissism ;p
whether a newbie is making an impetuous feature-request(would be more polite to save them 'til one is at least 'intermediately' familiar with all the ramifications/workarounds in the environ :p), or an expert is trying to fluff his own dick over his knowledge of a very subjectively designed(therefore always eccentric in some way) visual programming environment, i suddenly feel it is my duty to use the internet for what it's best at: exhibit pride and narcissism ;D it sometimes has a nice side-effect in my real life: i have an easier time learning new things because my pride, the greatest block to open-minded reception, remains defiled, therefore stifled, by my internet existence O_o (8-D )
...but there is no intent by me to do anything beyond that, certainly no intent to have any real/lasting effect on anyone else besides myself.
(for me, the most crucial form of introspection is learning not to take yourself so seriously... if others aren't keyed into that, they may accidentally take it too personally... nothing i can do bout that except offer apologies in advance :D)

but y'all should try it sometime! the internet was not built for introspection, but if i were to try to use it for that, this might be one way to do it >;D 

Good thread, btw, has a nice, warm, coming-together in a group-orgy feeling >:D
(you should never be sorry for a thread or a post, that's like being sorry for having any random thought... and anyone who would ever judge you by mere text, as if that was all the 'appearances' they needed for a quick 1st impression, would never make an important 'real' friend anyways, so it's not necessary to put that much care into it in the first place, misunderstanding will happen no matter what.)


Wow. I always get the answers I need here, but am loath to posting questions.