Where's the sine oscillator?


    Jan 21 2007 | 3:29 am
    I'm new to max, can someone tell me what object/whatever is the sine oscillator? I want to use it to generate a sine wave to pass to audio speakers... just a simple sine wave, that can be synchronized to an incoming MIDI gate message, which has a pitch or frequency input that can accept input from an envelope generator, and which has an amplitude level control or input for a controller that can accept input from an envelope generator.
    I looked in the manual, but jeez, it seems like everything in max is so low level dsp oriented it will take hours just to make something simple happen... or at least something that's simple to make happen in Reaktor (I know that this is because Max is more oriented toward low level DSP, where Reaktor works using higher level building blocks (although Reaktor now does offer the ability to build low level DSP stuff inside of core cells... but blech, count me out of that if i can avoid it)).
    Thanks, any help is appreciated.

    • Jan 21 2007 | 3:50 am
      like the one found in MSP tutorial #1?
      On 1/20/07, Max Planck wrote:
      >
      > I'm new to max, can someone tell me what object/whatever is the sine oscillator? >
      > I looked in the manual, but jeez, it seems like everything in max is so low level dsp oriented it will take hours just to make something simple happen.
    • Jan 21 2007 | 3:55 am
      cycle~ :)
      On Jan 20, 2007, at 10:29 PM, Max Planck wrote:
      >
      > I'm new to max, can someone tell me what object/whatever is the
      > sine oscillator? I want to use it to generate a sine wave to pass
      > to audio speakers... just a simple sine wave, that can be
      > synchronized to an incoming MIDI gate message, which has a pitch or
      > frequency input that can accept input from an envelope generator,
      > and which has an amplitude level control or input for a controller
      > that can accept input from an envelope generator.
      >
      > I looked in the manual, but jeez, it seems like everything in max
      > is so low level dsp oriented it will take hours just to make
      > something simple happen... or at least something that's simple to
      > make happen in Reaktor (I know that this is because Max is more
      > oriented toward low level DSP, where Reaktor works using higher
      > level building blocks (although Reaktor now does offer the ability
      > to build low level DSP stuff inside of core cells... but blech,
      > count me out of that if i can avoid it)).
      >
      > Thanks, any help is appreciated.
      v a d e //
      www.vade.info
      abstrakt.vade.info
    • Jan 21 2007 | 3:59 am
      Not to sound like a broken record, but it's cycle~...covered in the first MSP tutorial...
    • Jan 21 2007 | 3:59 am
      Don't I looke stupid... Sorry, didn't see your post, vade.
    • Jan 21 2007 | 7:44 am
      I highly reccomend doing all the max and msp tutorials with the included patches and PDF, and then moving on to playing with the examples before doing anything else. this might take a couple days but its well worth it and can lead to a more streamlined learning experience.
    • Jan 22 2007 | 3:07 pm
      I thought [cycle~] was a cosine ;)
    • Jan 22 2007 | 3:08 pm
      Isn't [cycle~] actually a cosine? ;)
    • Jan 22 2007 | 8:12 pm
      It is...correct me if I'm wrong. But when a simple phase shift creates (aurally) a sine, isn't it enough to serve most purposes? For my inquiring mind, when might an oscillator producing a true sine wave be needed over cycle~? The fact that cycle~ (the "default" object for these purposes) produces cosine waves makes me wonder if I've just asked a really stupid question... :)
    • Jan 22 2007 | 8:33 pm
    • Jan 22 2007 | 9:34 pm
      A cosine is simply a sine that is 90 degrees out of phase - a sine
      starts from zero, rises to 1., then falls through zero to -1.,
      finally rising back to zero - cosine simply starts from the 1. and
      follows the same wave form. If you are generating continuous wave
      forms it doesn't make any difference, since where it starts is not an
      issue. Where it may matter is when you are using cycle~s to control
      something else, so where you are in the waveform at the moment
      actually matters.
      A very small investigation into some not very difficult maths will
      help a lot - it's mostly just common sense, once you have the basics,
      and it will make you a lot more relaxed about all this stuff - it's
      worth doing - does someone have a really good intro to recommend?
      Best
      L
      On 22 Jan 2007, at 20:12, Brennon wrote:
      >
      > It is...correct me if I'm wrong. But when a simple phase shift
      > creates (aurally) a sine, isn't it enough to serve most purposes?
      > For my inquiring mind, when might an oscillator producing a true
      > sine wave be needed over cycle~? The fact that cycle~ (the
      > "default" object for these purposes) produces cosine waves makes me
      > wonder if I've just asked a really stupid question... :)
      Lawrence Casserley - lawrence@lcasserley.co.uk
      Lawrence Electronic Operations - www.lcasserley.co.uk
      Colourscape Music Festivals - www.colourscape.org.uk
    • Jan 22 2007 | 10:13 pm
      Hi,
      I could really do with reading a good math intro too :-)
      P
      On 22 Jan 2007, at 21:34, lawrence casserley wrote:
      > A cosine is simply a sine that is 90 degrees out of phase - a sine
      > starts from zero, rises to 1., then falls through zero to -1.,
      > finally rising back to zero - cosine simply starts from the 1. and
      > follows the same wave form. If you are generating continuous wave
      > forms it doesn't make any difference, since where it starts is not
      > an issue. Where it may matter is when you are using cycle~s to
      > control something else, so where you are in the waveform at the
      > moment actually matters.
      >
      > A very small investigation into some not very difficult maths will
      > help a lot - it's mostly just common sense, once you have the
      > basics, and it will make you a lot more relaxed about all this
      > stuff - it's worth doing - does someone have a really good intro to
      > recommend?
      >
      > Best
      >
      > L
      >
      > On 22 Jan 2007, at 20:12, Brennon wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> It is...correct me if I'm wrong. But when a simple phase shift
      >> creates (aurally) a sine, isn't it enough to serve most purposes?
      >> For my inquiring mind, when might an oscillator producing a true
      >> sine wave be needed over cycle~? The fact that cycle~ (the
      >> "default" object for these purposes) produces cosine waves makes
      >> me wonder if I've just asked a really stupid question... :)
      >
      > Lawrence Casserley - lawrence@lcasserley.co.uk
      > Lawrence Electronic Operations - www.lcasserley.co.uk
      > Colourscape Music Festivals - www.colourscape.org.uk
      >
      >
    • Jan 22 2007 | 11:19 pm
      Although it's a regular NYC phone book, I
      find that anyone upon whom one foists "The
      Computer Music Tutorial" is likely to NOT
      ask any more questions for quite a long
      while, and [assuming they can read and
      retain] not because they're in despair.
      It covers the first N years' worth of
      questions.
      Actually, it's somewhat more likely that
      the next batch of questions you get will
      be a lot more difficult to answer, and
      it won't work for YOU to go to the book
      to looks up the answers; the person who
      asked you the question will tell you she's
      already read it. :-)
      This is not the sort of thing you'd recommend
      to someone who proudly tells you that they
      don't read, of course. If you have reason to
      suspect that the person asking you questions
      is smarter than you are [a common occurrence,
      in my case], recommend Perry Cook's book
      "Real Sound Synthesis for Interactive
      Applications," It's as good an example of an
      exercise of folding intellectual space as I
      know... 250 pages that open up to 3,000.
    • Jan 22 2007 | 11:41 pm
      > I looked in the manual, but jeez, it seems like everything in max is so low level dsp oriented it will take hours just to make something simple happen... or at least something that's simple to make happen in Reaktor.
      Max isn't Reaktor. It is a programming environment used not only for audio, but also video and a large number of other media applications. Although some objects provide a higher level of functionality than others, Max generally leaves a larger number of low-level decisions to users to provide flexibility. Although this requires the investment of time and effort on your part, the number of people who've used it over a number of years would suggest that such effort is likely to be repaid.
      There are people out there who were once Reaktor users who
      decided to teach themselves how to use Max by starting with
      simple Reaktor modules, examining what their inputs and outputs
      were, and re-creating them as Max abstractions they they could
      save and use again. If you feel you're competent with Reaktor,
      perhaps that would be a nice project to begin once you do a few
      tutorials and learn the basics.
      Note: I wouldn start by trying to recreate Vokator or
      something like that :-)
    • Jan 23 2007 | 9:24 pm
      Yes Gregory - that is true!
      And here on page 18 is the stuff about sine/cosine.
      I am a little reluctant to put a real beginner onto it because it is
      so big and daunting.
      However, I agree, it is highly recommended to those who really want
      to understand this stuff:
      Roads, Curtis - The Computer Music Tutorial - MIT Press, 2000 - ISBN
      0-262-68082-3
      Just don't let yourself be daunted by its size - it is the bible!
      Best
      L
      On 22 Jan 2007, at 23:19, Gregory Taylor wrote:
      > Although it's a regular NYC phone book, I
      > find that anyone upon whom one foists "The
      > Computer Music Tutorial" is likely to NOT
      > ask any more questions for quite a long
      > while, and [assuming they can read and
      > retain] not because they're in despair.
      Lawrence Casserley - lawrence@lcasserley.co.uk
      Lawrence Electronic Operations - www.lcasserley.co.uk
      Colourscape Music Festivals - www.colourscape.org.uk