Zyklus Improvisor concept


    Sep 27 2008 | 11:13 am
    Hi Max/Msp friends,
    first post here. About 2 months ago I purchased Max/Msp 5 for Windows. I'm currently in the process of making a ""realtime 8-track midi looper/sequencer". The purpose of this patch is that you record a short riff/part in realtime let's say for 2 bars, and when done recording put it instantly in a loop. So you don't hear any difference between a recording and the looped playback of that part. Quantisation of recorded data is also possible. There are other features as well like transposing parts indepently and a general keytranspose in realtime, relative speed settings between parts and the length in beats of each part before looping starts.
    This is already working. More features in the pipeline: arpeggiators and chordrecognition so that was recorded before can be translated to other scales in realtime when hitting a chord at the keyboard.
    This idea originates from the "Zyklus Improvisor" discussion at KVR Audio forum. link: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131409
    I was wondering if anyone made something similar in the past also?

    • Sep 27 2008 | 6:22 pm
      bronswerk skrev: > Hi Max/Msp friends, > > first post here. About 2 months ago I purchased Max/Msp 5 for Windows. I'm currently in the process of making a ""realtime 8-track midi looper/sequencer". The purpose of this patch is that you record a short riff/part in realtime let's say for 2 bars, and when done recording put it instantly in a loop. So you don't hear any difference between a recording and the looped playback of that part. Quantisation of recorded data is also possible. There are other features as well like transposing parts indepently and a general keytranspose in realtime, relative speed settings between parts and the length in beats of each part before looping starts. > > This is already working. More features in the pipeline: arpeggiators and chordrecognition so that was recorded before can be translated to other scales in realtime when hitting a chord at the keyboard. > > This idea originates from the "Zyklus Improvisor" discussion at KVR Audio forum. > link: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131409 > > I was wondering if anyone made something similar in the past also? Sure. Ableton Live has all that, except perhaps the "relative speed-setting" business, which involves one or two mouse-clicks.
      How would this project differ from Ableton Live, exactly? cheers,
      Andreas.
    • Sep 27 2008 | 6:27 pm
      I don't know, I don't use Live.
    • Sep 29 2008 | 7:58 am
      bronswerk schrieb: > I was wondering if anyone made something similar in the past also?
      Well I have something like that I am constantly tweaking for more than a decade, but I am not so much interested in bars and beats, more long loops and delays. Its always fun...
      Then there is Lloopp from Klaus Filip, Kenaxis, Jeff Kaiser made a looper and of course Cyclings Radial. I guess there exist a lot of very different similar patches like that...;-)
      Andreas Wetterberg schrieb: > How would this project differ from Ableton Live, exactly?
      You can tweak it yourself... That's a huge difference... and congrats to get a patch with such a concept going within two months. Another difference of course is, that its probably very much optimized for yourself and maybe wouldn't be as easy to learn for someone else than the creator, but who cares...
      welcome here, you might be interested in Loopers-Delight:
      http://www.loopers-delight.com/loop.html they have a list as well...
      Stefan
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
    • Sep 29 2008 | 8:21 am
      bronswerk schrieb: > This idea originates from the "Zyklus Improvisor" discussion at KVR > Audio forum. link: > http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131409
      Finally read the thread, and now I get why Andreas asked for the difference to Live. The Zyklus Improviser seems to be a very old pre computer concept. Any sequencer, even out of the same period that machine was designed, would be a thousand times more flexible and could do the same in principle.
      Out of a Max perspective that whole thread on KVR seems a bit naive and out of a perspective which even wouldn't include something like Reaktor... Maxland is a different Planet, the problems these guys talk about just don't exist here, because you always have an instant solution and never need to wait for a willing developer...;-) The whole Receptor concept is anyway only attractive for People who are afraid of computers. Its a box which hides the computer for the musician, to create the illusion he isn't using one....
      Stefan
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
    • Sep 29 2008 | 2:51 pm
      Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Mon, 29 September 2008 02:21 ---------------------------------------------------- > Finally read the thread, and now I get why Andreas asked for the > difference to Live. The Zyklus Improviser seems to be a very old pre > computer concept. Any sequencer, even out of the same period that > machine was designed, would be a thousand times more flexible and could > do the same in principle.
      > Stefan ----------------------------------------------------
      Stefan,you probably mean the Zyklus MPS because Zyklus Improvisor doesn't excists today other then on paper. And still that sequencer had certain aspects still not found on any hardware sequencer today.
    • Oct 02 2008 | 3:01 pm
      Okay, this forum is probably not the right forum for talk about sequencer concepts but much more for Max/MSP related things. And of course that should be! Thanks for the comments anyway.
    • Oct 02 2008 | 5:27 pm
      Don't let Stefan put you off.
      Max evolved as a MIDI processing application long before most of the people posting on KVR were probably born. That's not to say that the book has been written, in the slightest.
      I really like this project
      Mac only, I think.
      -A
    • Oct 03 2008 | 8:00 am
      bronswerk schrieb: > Okay, this forum is probably not the right forum for talk about > sequencer concepts but much more for Max/MSP related things.
      Oh, it is, I just though that the Zyklus (hardware) concept didn't sound so interesting for me (very personal opinion...).
      There are all sorts of sequencers created in Max, it seems, every second Max beginner wants to create a step sequencer or a drum machine. And they do...
      Maybe the main difference in talk is, that we rarely talk about concepts, we implement them. In fact, talking about concepts starts to get interesting as soon you have an implementation. And I would like to see discussions about it, but it would be your responsibility to create interest. Best is if you start to actually create it... Here is no separation between musician and developer, its usually the same person. It is also interesting how much personal designs differ from general designs which have to fit the needs of a lot of musicians... That difference is what I mean with "being on a different planet..."
      All the best, you are welcome,
      Stefan
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
    • Oct 03 2008 | 8:34 am
      Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about.
      (This is the foreword of a detailed specification of the original Zyklus Improvisor specification. NB: polyphonic transposition was removed in a later specification. The usefulness was uncertain.)
      What is Improvisor? The Zyklus Improvisor will allow a user to control up to 8 synthesisers at a time, switching them on or off, zoning and transposing them as required. Any synthesiser can also be arpeggiated or played by a sequencer in addition to being played ‘live’, and these sequences can be recorded ‘on the fly’ as creative instincts arise. The music need never stop. Additionally, up to four different sequences or variations can be recorded in real-time for each active synthesiser and Improvisor will allow 8 different ‘scenes’ to be stored for each of the 128 Songs. A scene represents which sequence is playing on each synth, how it is being played and so on. This provides incredible flexibility in being able to build up and improvise within a song, varying its elements in ways that would be difficult to achieve using conventional sequencers. But that’s just for starters... All running sequences can independently loop on any bar or beat, can be transposed from the keyboard and triggered in various ways to give different effects. Even polyphonic transposition is included whereby playing a chord can start the sequence running at various pitches simultaneously. In fact, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of combinations of the various triggering and manipulation controls. Each sequence or arpeggio can also run at precise ratios relative to the global tempo for some great effects, plus the dynamics of each note in the sequence or arpeggio can be controlled from any other sequence or arpeggio. Not only that, but each note in each sequence or arpeggio can also be sent to alternative synthesisers. ALL of this can be controlled easily in real-time without any interruption to the music. A user will probably find that many of the features of Improvisor are being used more often than others. Every control on the screen is thus able to be mapped to an external hardware MIDI controller. There are a few other features in the proposal which are less exotic but nevertheless useful. For example, just before a performance where you will play say, 28 songs, you find that one of your synthesisers is not working. Since this particular synthesiser is used in most of the 28 songs, this would create a massive problem since all the outputs to that synth would have to be mapped to an alternative synth for every song. Improvisor provides a convenient global remapping facility for just this sort of situation. Not exactly a feature to get excited about, that is, until you come to need it... The Zyklus Improvisor is thus first and foremost designed for live performance where a number of synthesisers must be centrally controlled in a manageable way. The extensive improvisation facilities are entirely optional but are always there should experimentation and improvisation be your thing.
    • Oct 03 2008 | 7:08 pm
      Quote: bronswerk wrote on Fri, 03 October 2008 03:34 ---------------------------------------------------- > Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about. > > (This is the foreword of a detailed specification of the original Zyklus Improvisor specification. > NB: polyphonic transposition was removed in a later specification. The usefulness was uncertain.) > > What is Improvisor? > The Zyklus Improvisor will allow a user to control up to 8 synthesisers at a time, switching them > on or off, zoning and transposing them as required. Any synthesiser can also be arpeggiated or > played by a sequencer in addition to being played ‘live’, and these sequences can be recorded > ‘on the fly’ as creative instincts arise. The music need never stop. Additionally, up to four different > sequences or variations can be recorded in real-time for each active synthesiser and Improvisor > will allow 8 different ‘scenes’ to be stored for each of the 128 Songs. A scene represents which > sequence is playing on each synth, how it is being played and so on. This provides incredible > flexibility in being able to build up and improvise within a song, varying its elements in ways that > would be difficult to achieve using conventional sequencers. > But that’s just for starters... All running sequences can independently loop on any bar or beat, > can be transposed from the keyboard and triggered in various ways to give different effects. > Even polyphonic transposition is included whereby playing a chord can start the sequence > running at various pitches simultaneously. In fact, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of > combinations of the various triggering and manipulation controls. Each sequence or arpeggio can > also run at precise ratios relative to the global tempo for some great effects, plus the dynamics of > each note in the sequence or arpeggio can be controlled from any other sequence or arpeggio. > Not only that, but each note in each sequence or arpeggio can also be sent to alternative > synthesisers. ALL of this can be controlled easily in real-time without any interruption to the music. > A user will probably find that many of the features of Improvisor are being used more often than > others. Every control on the screen is thus able to be mapped to an external hardware MIDI > controller. There are a few other features in the proposal which are less exotic but nevertheless > useful. For example, just before a performance where you will play say, 28 songs, you find that > one of your synthesisers is not working. Since this particular synthesiser is used in most of the 28 > songs, this would create a massive problem since all the outputs to that synth would have to be > mapped to an alternative synth for every song. Improvisor provides a convenient global remapping > facility for just this sort of situation. Not exactly a feature to get excited about, that is, until you > come to need it... > The Zyklus Improvisor is thus first and foremost designed for live performance where a number > of synthesisers must be centrally controlled in a manageable way. The extensive improvisation > facilities are entirely optional but are always there should experimentation and improvisation be > your thing. ----------------------------------------------------
      You can do all of this in some way in Ableton Live, so if it's just about whether you can do all of that then I'd suggest not reinventing the wheel. If, however, the goal is to 1) learn in the process of creating and 2) have an environment that is suited to your specific way of working as Stefan said, then by all means, go for it. Just be aware that the "unconventional sequencer" angle has long been tapped by the Abes at this point.
    • Oct 04 2008 | 8:05 am
      bronswerk schrieb: > Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about.
      Does it exist? Have you played with it? Are you going to do a Max version of it?
      What is lacking in the description is how to control all these possibilities. How the user interface is designed. That is the most crucial part and would tell if it is possible to improvise at all with it or not (I guess there is a description in the full specs...)
      It sounds actually like a personal design. Someone who made an instrument for herself. Without touching such a beast, you can't really tell what it means...
      For sure it is possible to implement it in Max. I would just skip all these limitations to 8 (synths, sequences and whatever...)
      If you didn't touch it yet, I would just use the description as inspiration, and start pretty small. Then add features to your own liking...
      Good luck and happy patching...
      All the best,
      Stefan
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
    • Oct 04 2008 | 3:04 pm
      Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Sat, 04 October 2008 02:05 ---------------------------------------------------- > Does it exist? Have you played with it? Are you going to do a Max > version of it?
      Like I said before, there is no such thing as Zyklus Improvisor (yet). It only excists on paper. What I'm doing is just my version of it.
      > What is lacking in the description is how to control all these > possibilities. How the user interface is designed. That is the most > crucial part and would tell if it is possible to improvise at all with > it or not (I guess there is a description in the full specs...)
      Yes, there is a full specification how sequencers, controls etc should interact with each other. This pdf was on the net for about a year also available but not anymore because now a professional company is looking into it if they can make something like this. Unfortunately they are really slow and I'm not sure if this baby really comes alive in a commercial version, hence the reason why I'm doying this in Max. I'm tired of waiting :(
      > It sounds actually like a personal design. Someone who made an > instrument for herself. Without touching such a beast, you can't really > tell what it means...
      Well, this design was developed by William (aka Bill) Marshall, who also designed the Direct sequencer for Vangelis. Not the least person...
      > For sure it is possible to implement it in Max. I would just skip all > these limitations to 8 (synths, sequences and whatever...) > > If you didn't touch it yet, I would just use the description as > inspiration, and start pretty small. Then add features to your own liking...
      That's just my idea ;)
    • Oct 04 2008 | 5:09 pm
      David Huff skrev: > Quote: bronswerk wrote on Fri, 03 October 2008 03:34 > ---------------------------------------------------- > >> Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about. >> >> (This is the foreword of a detailed specification of the original Zyklus Improvisor specification. >> NB: polyphonic transposition was removed in a later specification. The usefulness was uncertain.) >> > -------------------- > > You can do all of this in some way in Ableton Live, so if it's just about whether you can do all of that then I'd suggest not reinventing the wheel. If, however, the goal is to 1) learn in the process of creating and 2) have an environment that is suited to your specific way of working as Stefan said, then by all means, go for it. Just be aware that the "unconventional sequencer" angle has long been tapped by the Abes at this point. Those were my words exactly. Now what I'd like to know (perhaps from bronswerk) is how the implementation should be different from that provided with Ableton Live.
      Bronswerk, have a go at the demo version or something, www.ableton.com .
      First part of the specification process (the "what") is already in place, now we just need to know the "how".
      Cheers, Andreas