(Beginner) From Reaktor to Max
If the topic is here wrong, please move to a better place (thx).
I have long year reaktor-experiences, also a usable "library". I play some months, even years with the idea switch to MAX.
1.
I love my library (from simple 4-wire-macros till high advanced millions-wire-combo-stuff. ) Is there any way to easy/fast "translate" it into max-stuff?
2.
How deep is the lerning-curve if i have such background? Will this experience help a lot or will it more confuse?
3.
Is there are MAX-library with useful user-stuff, like special filters, samplers, simple-fx... and most i search for useful small-tools... math, hacks, gui-elements, de-bugger, ideas, concepts...
4.
I guess yes, but i want a validation: Can i create with MAX really autark VST/VSTi ? Is there any limitation?
5.
What is in Reaktor really more easy and what in MAX? Or other: What is really annoying in Reaktor comparing to MAX and viceversa?
2. deeeeeep. For me switching from Reaktor to Max was realy confusing. Max is for me more like a language, Reaktor more like a modular system. Start with the Tutorials build in Max. Best thing about Max are the Helpfiles for every Object.
3. http://www.maxforlive.com/ and Package Manager
4. no you can´t make vst´s
"4. no you can´t make vst´s" (i am to blind to find the quote here)
You are kidding, arnt you???? For what do you MAX??? Just for special stand-alone????
(thanks for answer)
About your point 1: converting a Reaktor ensemble to a Max patch can be long, difficult, and require advanced skills on both platforms. Even if you reach a good level of proficiency in Max, you might not choose to put your energy (a lot of it) into translating an ensemble. You might end up using Max and your Reaktor instruments as VST plugins from within Max.
Max has an edge for all things linked to communication and interdisciplinarity: seemless integration of audio, video, OpenGL processing, easy communications with Arduino and other popular platforms, etc.
4. you can use Max Standalone and Max for Ableton Live and you can insert VST´s into Max, but you can´s make Vst´s. So Max for Audio makes only sense when you use Ableton Live.
>>You are kidding, arnt you???? For what do you MAX??? Just for special stand-alone????
i love this question.
on the one hand, that is one of the reasons why use a 10 years old version of max/msp: because i can still make VSTs with that. in later versions that feature had been stolen from us by evil trolls.
on the other hand let me ask you back: why do you want to host your custom effect in cubase, logic, or protools, when you can build custom apps with max/msp which are much better than an audio workstation program NOT made by you?
when you, as it seems, think that custom plug-ins are better than commercial ones - why is that different for the host/enviroment? this is not a rhetoric question.
-110
4. you can export gen~ code into vst and vstis, but a lot (like UI) has to be done outside of max, and the licence of the cod eyou export is not FOSS - so you can't release your plugin as FOSS, but you still can do most of the things with it. Gen~ is a part of Max that is wide and deep, but only for sound processing.
Other than that, max4Live is deep and very cool. It's better and easier than making vst for Live. But, well, it's limited to ableton live.
Thank you guys!
Hm, seems i have to think more than twice.... ;-)
@ VICHUG
can you explain this a little bit more? With UI you mean GUI? No Problem, i have enough experience with JK Knobman and Affinity.
But what is Gen-code, what is FOSS, what is GENIS???? So the question is: How can i translate MAX int o VST??? What do i need?
@ROMAN
Do you mean VST-export was inside MAX but is now not avaible anymore????
The rest of "question-backpart" of your answer i dont understand? Is there any other possibility to bring MAX into a DAW beside VST/AU except Max4Life which seems limitet to ableton only????
yes. decades ago. you cant buy it any longer and it stopped working in 3/4 of current VST hosts. see pp.maxhelp
no, i tried to suggest thzat you overthink the requirement for VST plug-ins. depending on what you do, you could just switch from your current DAW to using max only. then you dont need VST exprt for your code, you just combine your code inside max and mix your audio there.
Thank you, Roman
Thats really pitty! Is this just a question of legacy/licencing (for cycling) or is this technically too difficult????
My goal is to create synth/sampler/fx... for EVRY end-user who own a DAW.
Do you know any alternative to reach this goal? AFAK synthmaker/flowstone is juts for PC, not for mac.... and reaktor has the limitation the end-user needs a fullversion of Reaktor... so what could be a good alternative, for creating really advanced, high-complex, extrem unique stuff just with some basic-library-modules????
flowstone is totally awesome in a way, but it is not comparable to max (not speaking of reaktor), because you are more or less programming all custom DSP in an assembler language. (max/msp has far more compiled objects available for basic tasks such as "delay" "buffer" or "lowpass")
and to clarify... eventually it is a bit less bad that i claimed above. if you have a serious request for max 4 license and a good karma and send them cookies and all that, you will be able to register a copy of max 4 when you own max 7. it is just that you should know that there is no support and things might break at any time.
on macintosh, max 4 stops working properly in sierra, and pluggo stops working with cubase 5, protools 9, live 9 (not sure about MAS, RTAS, and AU hosts which was also all supported by max-made pug-ins.)
check out if your favorite host program will support the pluggo runtime (test it right here https://cycling74.com/downloads/discontinued , "pluggo junior" is what you want, the full install is a demo version)
if you like what you see you can now create raw builds of VST plug-ins in max, then later copy it in a max v4. project and export as VST plug-in. (but using a higher version of max is difficult for you as a beginner, since you dont know by heart what objects existed for max 4 and which not)
if you are a windows user you might want to install quicktime for older versions of max. if you are a ableton user you should ignore VST and get max4live. the latest MacOS for max 4 fun is OS 10.8.9.
stereo gain regulation plug-in including graphical slider, a preset, and parameter automation.
i needed 15 seconds to make you that example. exporting can suck for huge projects but is doable. build, put in plug-ins folder, have the (free) pluggo runtime installed - and it works in almost all audio programs (when they are at least about 8 years old) as VST/AU/RTAS/MAS plug-in.
in flowstone the same patch would require about 35-40 objects, in C++ you would have to deal with a dozen of weird things which are of no meaning to the average musician before you can do anything with it.
thx Roman,
I´m not sure that i got your point. With pluggo you can export as VST, but only for old maschines???? Sorry, my english is not the best.
BTW: Such basic-modules, like your gainer - do i have to create such stuff from absolut zero, or did you only for making example and there are basic-library-ones and you can modify to your best fit????
Can i "library" each of my modifys/ground-zero-creations for later using, or is this also "trapped"?
Is flowstone really as complicated as you mentioned? Where is the differnce to build from ground-up in C+++???
For a number of reasons, I usually reccommend the investment in Max over the free Pd, but since Cycling74 has discontinued this "direct VST export" functionality in Max years ago, what about this? Has anyone tried it?
@ Pedro, thx.
But i did not get your point (i have translation problems with such "Schachtelsätze").
Do you mean PD is a very good alternative to MAX (including VST-export) or do you mean the opposite?
Do you have useful links to PD-related sites?
Answer to question number 5, why I switched from Reaktor (5.9) to Max.
For me, Max is more suitable in controlling sounds and controlling/creating compositions.
Reaktor is more suitable in easy building synths with regular name conventions, like you know from the real world.
I didn’t want to build vst plug-ins, but it would be great if max would allow me to do this, though. For safety reasons, I never used Reaktor as a plug-in in critical situations, only as stand-alone with other software together.
Annoying things in Reaktor:
lists, symbols (you cant work with plain text in Reaktor, numbers only), wireless connections (in Reaktor they are index based, which leads to problems when copying sends, receives...), no score (in max very rudimentary though), audio-file management (e.g. writing many files automatically to your hard-disk is not convenient in Reaktor).
You can do a lot more things in max than you can do in Reaktor like mentioned in the previous posts, i add some others: advanced preset (snapshot) crossfading-possibilities with pattr, Reaktor Core and Max gen~ are a kind of similar, but you can additionally use code (check out Synthcore Library for Max 7.3.1 at http://www.yofiel.com/ ) Javascript, Java, ...
With pluggo you can export as VST, but only for old maschines????
with max/msp version 4 - 10 years old - you can export as VST. the plug-ins will then require the pluggo runtime to run but otherwise they are normal plug-ins.
do i have to create such stuff from absolut zero, or did you only for making example and there are basic-library-ones and you can modify to your best fit????
there are helpfiles, a documention, a tutorial, and some additional example content. the best source for patches, however, is this forum.
i guess it is about time that you download the max 7 demo and check these things out. the demo does not expire, only saving is limited.
Can i "library" each of my modifys/ground-zero-creations for later using, or is this also "trapped"?
yes of course, that is how things work.
i use max for 10+ years and when i start a new project i almost only use my own objects.
would i write this plug-in for myself, it would not contain [pp] but [110.pp], which i made myself and which already includes scaling and automatic names.
i also would not need to connect [line~] to [*~], i would use my [110.gain] object which already contains both objects.
my whole life is modular and reusable since i use max.
Is flowstone really as complicated as you mentioned? Where is the differnce to build from ground-up in C+++???
C++ is ... well, writing text. boo :(
flowstone is graphical - like max - but max has three times more audio objects.
max objects can often be combined relatively easy to build new things which are not covered by objects. in flowstone this is a bit more difficult: you would often end up writing code. flowstone has graphical objects where you would write a special language or classic assembler opcodes into.
the flowstone program is a dream to use - but in my opinion it lacks too many things i need to make audio plug-ins. plus, it is win32 only.
camomile has its limits, synthmaker has, C++ requires years to learn IMO, and when i hear "swift" or "java" i am getting an allergic shock.
pluggo is from all options the best and easist, but it means using software from - literally - the last century.
perfect is none of them.
-110 (Schachtelsetzer)
Thank you guys,
Thats a really good overview. I´m thinking about all the points!