Ableton midi clip program change for Kapture Liine

    Sep 05 2012 | 9:04 pm
    I have been using Kapture by Richie Hawtin and Liine. Its a very cool max for live effect that allows you to instantly recall the exact settings of a live set including vst's. You do this by taking a 'snap shot' in much the same way as you would save a patch on a synth. However with this you can instantly recall for example track volume, panning, sends and vst settings by clicking on the snap shot you have saved. Dead simple and really cool.
    What it cant do is respond to midi program change messages say from a clip. Neither can you automate any of it in midi for that matter which is quite ironic since it's such a powerfull parameter controling device.
    What I would like to do would be to have a sitation where i can launch a scene and it would recall for example the exact send/return and volume settings. Then continue to move through scenes in this way bringing up different snap shots of abletons parameters as you launch a scene.
    Frankly for me this would be pretty mindblowing stuff in terms of the live implications and it could be done I think if the Kapture liine effect's drop down menu where you save all of your snap shots of your live set's responded to midi clip program change messages.
    If its not possible, then unfortunately this thing is limited to things like comparing different versions of mixes which is cool as you can do it by just clicking on the snap shot. But i think this is something that I want to utilise for performance and I'm left scratching my head as to why Richie Hawtin didnt think of this as he designed it for performance. Am I missing a trick any one?

    • Sep 05 2012 | 11:06 pm
      You could probably modify the device to observe scene or clip firing and set state that way. I don't know how it would all play out in a large live set if you needed really snappy changes though
    • Sep 06 2012 | 6:56 am
      As Andrew wrote, you may hit a wall due to the very large amount of data potentially included in a large set + the latency needed to observe and set parmeters. If you di this when you launch your scene, then the changes in your mix are likely to be done after the clips in that scene ha ve started to play. That means you would have to launch the snapshot before launching the clips, which can be done of course, but involves evaluating the latency before it is done, which may vary between sets.
    • Sep 06 2012 | 7:32 pm
      Ive just tested it. Im running 26 tracks in ableton on a tune thats nearly finished. Most of the tracks are Arturia prophet and then some drum racks so a fair bit of stuff going on. I put in 4 send/return tracks. I turn the sends on every single chanel on to varying degrees and took a snap shot. I turned them all completely off and took a snap shot of that too. Then i launched a scene and toggled between the two different snap shots as i was playing different scenes. It would instantaneously change the send amounts on 26 chanels as i was simultaneously launching a scene.It works great no latency. It doesnt seem to respond the same as if you would have automated them with a controller when it lags. It just snaps them all straight into place. You should try it guys it takes two secs to do.
      Im not really interested in using it to create immediate snappy changes. I would however like to use it when moving through a live set as i was mixing a new song in to be able to recall key settings such a sends returns volumes and effects settings for that tune so when i fully mix it in and switch over to it ive got fully automatable effects sends and returns etc that i can fuck about with and really get inside the tune. But it starts off the way i want it to so it mixes in perfect at the beggining coz i would be working the other tune at that time. Then just move on to the next tune and move through a live set recalling the setting of each tune either assigned to cross fader a or b as you move through.
      Thats the idea that I had to use it for if that makes sense. I need to get inside it and figure out how to get it to respond to program change messages other wise i wont be able to use it in this way. Trouble is my knowledge of Max is very very basic I tried to do some tutorials and I just sacked it off and started making tunes ;) Gonna have another shot at it though.
      By the way here is my soundcloud if any one wants a listen there is some pretty varied stuff up there
      Would appreciate it if someone who had a good idea about how to do this gave me some advise. Im also going to go through some tutorials when i get the time and will feed abck any thing i find out.
    • Sep 08 2012 | 11:01 am
      IMO global state /preset management in Live leaves a lot to be desired, and while Kapture more or less works (what can one expect for nothing, right?) , it is also pretty klunky in terms of editabity (both in terms of removing/rearranging Kapture presets and adding or removing devices in the Live set), lack of interpolation etc...
      It is possible to recall Kapture presets by launching MIDI clips - named after Kapture presets in a track named Kapture where the Kapture device exists - in Session view (if that makes sense), but, In my experience and from memory, that never worked when playing the clips back in the arrangement!
      In any case, a while back now, I managed to hack something up that involved a workaround as, if I recall correctly and not mistaken, it was not possible (or I could not work out how) to automate the Kapture preset umenu directly. so what I did was to connect another umenu loaded with as many (numerical) values aka presets as I thought I'd need, connected to the existing preset menu object and automated that object in the Live Arrange view. It should also be possible to control this via external midi etc, but I didn't need that functionality for my purposes - but if this hack works for you, it should at least give you an inkling of how to go about it. Connect this Max fragment to the preset umenu inlet in the Kapture.amxd (and to be safe, save it under a different name) and see how you go....
    • Sep 08 2012 | 12:49 pm
      Nice one Spectro. Gonna give this a shot now. Good way to kill the rest of the afternoon. ;) Some of the things youve mentioned to do in max im unfamilliar with but Im gonna give it a shot and if i hit a brick wall ill hit u up.
      Cheers Rich
    • Sep 08 2012 | 1:33 pm
      Ive not needed to use that max patch yet coz i think it does everything I need using it in the clip way that u explained. Have tested in arrangmenet view and it works too so really usefull stuff.
      Cheers Rich
    • Sep 11 2012 | 8:34 pm
      would that change something for you about the fact you can't automate the change from a clip ?
    • Sep 14 2012 | 1:55 pm
      Well It turns out that I was mistaken about the Kapture midi clip trigger method in the arrangement. It does work. The presets *can be* changed, but the thing that fooled me was that the change is not reflected in the Kapture preset menu - thus the confusion.
      As far as attempts at automating the Kapture preset menu (a native max umenu) in the 'usual' way, the problem appeared to be related to the fact that a new umenu element is created with each new kapture preset, and one or both of the following Ableton/M4L 'limitations' as I understood them (at the time) apply: 1. Many (all?) native MaxMSP UI objects (including Umenu) cannot be directly automated and 2. It does not seem possible to add or remove items from the Live menu ( as an alternative to umenu) without manually editing them.
    • Oct 14 2013 | 11:55 pm
      Hello everyone, I just downloaded kapture runnning live 8.1.1 i need to recall a specific setting to re set all values when i use effects with macro knobs. How do I do a snap shot for these scenario ? sorry I am new here.. thanxs so much regards from Mexico
      when I am mixing i use macro knobs with akai 25 to add some reb, filter, eq, and so on,, i ehd up with a pretty wet signal, and when i need to use that track again I need to manually re set tweak all knobs to its start position to have a dry signal.
    • Feb 02 2014 | 8:34 pm
      Bit late reply soz but I'm sure what you are saying is to just take a snapshot when its totally dry and then launch that snap shot after you've pulled all the faders up to revert back to it. Any how just wanted to vent a little bit it was me who wrote the original post back in 2012 i was using an old dell studio laptop with Live 8 and the Kapture thing worked like a dream switching snapshots instantaneously. I got an iPad and got the Kapture pad thing but never managed to get it to work on my pc. I upgraded to the absolute top of the line macbook pro a few months ago i mean i literally checked every box and am running ableton 9 on it as well. Turns out Kapture pad is obsolete so I never got to use it and no plans to put on live 9. However I got the original Kapture max thing for ableton 9 and now its slow as shit changing snap shots! A piece of shit Dell running ableton 8 ran like a dream, top of the line macbook pro running ableton 9 slow as shit! WTF. Just wanted to get that off my chest lol.
    • Feb 08 2014 | 10:44 pm
      In case anyone is still interested ClyphX makes a great alternative to Kapture. Its much quicker. You install it and select it as a remote script and can type in commands into clips to controll various aspects of live including taking snapshots with the "snap" feature an example being "[] all/snap devall mix" Takes a snapshot of all device parameters and mix parameters. You can even do snapshot morphing which is no longer possible with Kapture. Awesome. Download from the beatwise network.
    • Feb 17 2014 | 11:36 pm
      Just wanted to say thanks, Richlielg - I was very much still interested and had just installed ClyphX - you putting me on to snaps in ClyphX has saved me from a very wobbly Kapture setup! Amazing stuff. Cheers!
    • Jan 17 2015 | 6:04 pm
      Theres a new and interesting feature with the latest version of Clyphx that allows you to store snap shots into a clip as envelopes as opposed to the clip name.
      You can put this as the clip name "[] clip envcap devall mix". Ive developed a simple max patch that automatically renames the selected clip "[] clip envcap devall mix" then when you trigger that it will store the envelopes.
      Im going to add the functionality of launching the selected clip after renaming it as well but not got around to it yet. In addition to renaming the clip it changes the colour black just to give me an indicator it worked. I have included the Max patch below:
      Click on the patch, copy to clip board, open a blank max for live midi effect, open the patcher window, right click and paste and you will see my patch. You will see very clearly the clyphx message within inverted commas inside a message box, followed by a comma and a message to set the color to 0 which is black. This is where you customise the message to put into a clip name.
      Click on the button at the bottom to enter presentation mode, arrange accordingly, go back to ableton and assign a button to the max device and then you are good. Select any clip, push that button and it will put the envcap msg in there and allow you to store the parameters there and then.
      Cheers Rich