Peter Nyboer

I'm trying to use "Export Max for Live Device" in the Manage Project menu to, well, export to M4L. It is unfortunately gray though. I have the device type set to "MIDI" in the project inspector. 

But I found the problem. 

Since I won't be the last to have this issue, I'll leave this here for future patchers. The problem is that I had not designated a patch to Open on Project Load. Once I right clicked on a file and designated it to Open on Project Load, the Export option was available in the Manage Project menu. 

Screen Shot 2023-02-03 at 2.58.46 PM.png

I'm trying to use "Export Max for Live Device" in the Manage Project menu to, well, export to M4L. It is unfortunately gray though. 

"export-max-for-live-device"-in-project-grayed-out

"export max for live device" in Project grayed out

Noah Neumark

With launch quantization off, if I play a clip from Live with 8 notes held for one bar, where the notes start at the same exact time and end at the same exact time, and then I play another clip with (mostly) different 8 notes held for one bar, [notein] receives some of the notes data out of sequence. Notes that are present in both clips receive a note off message AFTER some of the new note on messages are received. Then it fires a note off and and then a note on. When working with [borax] this throws the ordering off.

Screen Shot 2023-02-02 at 1.22.50 PM.png

Screen Shot 2023-02-02 at 1.23.12 PM.png

With launch quantization off, if I play a clip from Live with 8 notes held for one bar, where the notes start at the same exact time and ... 

note-off-data-from-live-midi-clip-coming-into-notein-is-out-of-sequence

Note-off data from Live midi clip coming into [notein] is out of sequence.

Mark

the live.observer is sending it's values twice when the m4l device is initialized.
is this behavior normal?
if yes, is there any way to overcome this, in order to receive the values only once?
if this is a bug,  does anyone know if it has been fixed?
i'm using max 7.0.3 and ableton 9.7.3
thanks



 
the live.observer is sending it's values twice when the m4l device is initialized.
is this behavior normal?
if yes, is there any way to o

why-is-live·observer-sending-values-twice-in-initialization

Not sure if it's normal behaviour but you can easily avoid repeated values by inserting [change], or [zl.change] for lists.




Bang your path live_set first (right to left rule/ toggle object) and you'll just get one list, not two.

It still gives me more than one list.
Did you test the patch you pasted?
If the problem is only on my pc then it's probably a bug that has been fixed.
Or else it's either supposed to work that way, or it's a bug that hasn't been fixed.

Anyway I managed to work around the problem, but still it would be good to know if this is normal behaviour for live.observer.


I've tested this, sure. Just one list, OSX and (!) Win. 

@Herr Markant
I've put your patch into a device, saved and reloaded the Live set and get 2 lists.

BUT, when unchecking 'Persistent Mapping' of the observer, both patches yours and the original give only 1 list.

thanks broc, good to know this.
 markant i suppose your live.observer had persistent mapping disabled when you tested?


I have this issue today with Live 11.1.5 and Max 8.2.2 and 8.3.1.

The first time the example from Herr Markant is pasted it works fine. After that it outputs twice as OP also mentioned.

 Persistent mapping has no effect at all. 

In the small example below it also prints twice to the console. In a normal patch it also outputs twice to other objects in the patch, so it's not a print issue.

A weird thing is happening when I change the property ‘cue_points’ to ‘tracks’ and then double click live.thisdevice. It still outputs twice. However, the first time after the change, the first output shows the id’s of the cue points and the second output the id of the track. As if the observer memorized the previous property..
When I double click again on live.thisdevice, I get twice the id of the track.

Why is this happening and what is a real solution?

stil the same issue here..
someone knows a workaround ?

why is live.observer sending values twice in initialization?

Uasmi Nasser

Hi,

Is there a way to check a usage difference between M1 and Intel? I've developed an instrument in Max using Gen, and I have tremendous usage difference. I'm talking 10% CPU load max on my M1 Pro Macbook and >150% CPU load on i7 Intel.

Maybe someone has ideas/workflows to test instruments before release? 
Btw, I've checked the CPU usage view and it shows pretty good results.
Cheers!


Hi,

Is there a way to check a usage difference between M1 and Intel? I've developed an instrument in Max using Gen, and I have tremendous ... 

cpu-usage-test-m1-vs-intel

CPU usage test M1 vs Intel?

It's just a sending a list of 8 random numbers to a group of 8 live.numboxes each in one of 8 bpatchers. When I load this in straight Max, I don't see any issue, but when it's loaded in Max driven by Live, it gets hung up. I have a similar algorithm running a big project I'm working on, and it's causing some issues.

It's just a sending a list of 8 random numbers to a group of 8 live.numboxes each in one of 8 bpatchers. 

simple-patch-causes-cpu-spike-in-m4l-but-not-in-straight-max

Fyi, the join object with all inlets hot is redundant in this example patch, but it makes sense in the context of the M4L device I’m working on. 

Aside from the 7x duplicate messages being sent with the [join @triggers -1] I don't see any reason to think this would be especially stressful.  In Live do you need all 64 numboxes "automated and stored"?  For writing undo history I could see that maybe being more problematic.  

Depending on how time critical these are you could also try replacing the first uzi with a zl.queue of your numbers (or better yet: pre-compiled symbol addresses) and defer between their outputs to stagger the load.  I've done that for large pattrstorage recalls and it helps with cpu spikes.

Tyler, thanks for the ideas. There are some good things to try for further testing. I’m not sure I know what you mean as far as precompiled symbol addresses. Can you elaborate?

Are you referring to the send location of the forward object? 

I suspect the “automated and stored” might be the culprit. In straight Max, Max does nothing with that, but Live has to process that, so I can see there being a big difference there.

Ah, "precompiled" was too fancy a word.  I was just thinking that if you do a queue, you could either make it a list of numbers that you feed into your [combine] object.  Or you could make a list of symbols like "bpatcher1data" "bpatcher2data" etc. so you don't have to do the [combine] step.   Performance wise this would be a tiny win at best, though.

I'm curious about the need for [join @triggers -1] in the Live context.  With lots of potential simultaneous changes that makes a ton redundant updates.  Or is the random numbers thing just for performance debugging?

Ah I see about the addressing. Actually that’s less of an issue because I’ll probably have it send to one bpatcher at a time. For context, this is used in an arpeggiator,  so instead of random numbers, there are incoming notes going through a borax for distribution to the 8 number slots.  I’m using all “@triggers -1” because a note on or off can come in at any slot, and needs to update the final list. I could perhaps change to having 8 forward objects and then it wouldn’t have to process the entire list each time, but again, I think all this is a trivial cost. The real expense I predict is with the automate/store. I haven’t had a chance to test that yet. If that’s the culprit, I have a way to rework it.

Oh ic, so it’s your “held pitches” or “active voices” list then?  That makes sense.  Thanks, and happy patching!

Yeah, I split the data into individual units with their own receive objects for each numbox. It significantly cuts down on the redundancy. Changing "automated and stored" to "hidden" did nothing. I also turned off "visible to mapping" and that did nothing. I'm still not sure why it spikes so much, but I think if I split the data, and use defers appropriately it will manage the issue sufficiently.

Simple patch causes CPU spike in M4L, but not in straight Max

Duggle ...

I want to enable aspects of functionality of a multi instance device only after the liveset has finished loading.
Is there an object that does this, or is there perhaps a LOM property that can be observed to obtain such a signal?
Thanks

I want to enable aspects of functionality of a multi instance device only after the liveset has finished loading.
Is there an object that ... 

how-to-detect-when-a-live-session-project-has-completely-loaded-and-ready-to-play

if it like in VST/AAX hosts (or max runtime for that mattter), you can tell that from the audio beeing turned on / beeing available. 
(for example you could poll the samplingrate until you get a response)


Provided that turning on audio is the last action of loading a Live set you may use [plugsync~] as it will for example send 0 from the first outlet.


Thanks for the suggestions.
I've gone with the 8th output of plugsync~.   When this (sample count) is > 48000 the enable (1) is sent globally to all instances of my device ~1 second after the audio engine fires up. Seems to work o.k.

How to detect when a Live session (project) has completely loaded and ready to play? 

Sébastien Schiesser

I'd like to fetch the values of a multislider object as device parameter.
I set the parameter mode of the multislider, its visibility and its size (256). But with I make a 'getvalue' request to the amxd~ device, I get a single 0.
Thus my question: how can I transfer a list of numbers from/to a device and a Max patcher?

Hi
I'd like to fetch the values of a multislider object as device parameter.
I set the parameter mode of the multislider, its visibility ... 

send-a-list-as-device-parameter

Send a list as device parameter

Blair

I am using a tempo-synced phasor ramp generator inside of an FFT. The reason for using FFT is because it's part of a greater patch, where the ramp down happens spectrally and can be offset per harmonic. Before I was using non-signal counter to modulate it,  whilst it didn't sync as well, there was no issue. Is it possible to fix it with how I have it set up now?

5-Audio 0011 [2023-01-25 122008].wav

image.png

I am using a tempo-synced phasor ramp generator inside of an FFT. 

fft-preringing-but-only-sometimes

Is it possible to fix it with how I have it set up now?

my first guess is 'no', because phasor~ is attempting to stay synced to the Global Transport and this falls outside the realm of the signal-vector of your pfft~, so the two will often be slightly out-of-sync unless you find a way to hard-sync the phasor~ with the bin-index of fftin~(i don't understand why: but i do get less ringing when i set my signal-vector within 'Audio Options' of Max to 64 or 128... maybe having the outer signal-vector size fall within the range of half your FFT-size helps somehow? ...but i can still hear it's a bit imprecise).
but i feel like there maybe some tricks people could come up with using sah~ to sample-and-hold the incoming phasor~, or possibly reset the phasor~ using a signal at certain times synced with that bin-index outlet... (i just don't have time to come up with all these guesses for you, and i also don't know what the larger patch does nor the longer-term goal here, so it's probably better i give you this guess and you will end up learning more by searching stuff out on your own related to this...)

since you're working with direct real/imaginary values(what you've created is more efficient than the equivalent using cartopol~ to translate real/imaginary into amplitude/phase ...and working with 'phase' is where you could use the phasewrap~ object to wrap within -π and π as mentioned in your other thread, but i'm not sure this is actually what you're trying to do, anyways -> it's more useful when you're trying to detect/rework specific parts of the frequency spectrum separate from magnitude/amplitude, but in your patch, it seems you're only reworking the overall magnitude by multiplying both real/imaginary by the (inversed)output of phasor~), i recommend going over these more too, particularly the first one:
https://cycling74.com/tutorials/the-phase-vocoder-%E2%80%93-part-i 
https://cycling74.com/tutorials/the-phase-vocoder-part-ii 

my best guess: it IS possible, but it's actually both the fft-size and hop-size(defaults to 2) which will make this difficult to sync ideally to a phasor~ which is already synced to the global transport(instead of to something within the pfft~... the signal-vector size within a pfft~ is dependent on your FFT-size, outside the pfft~ it can be different). you just need to study more closely how these parameters interweave within the overall system in order to work it around what you're trying to achieve.

also, you've probably seen this already, but just in case, there's this series that starts with more basics but still very helpful for folks of all levels of understanding, i still have to review it often:
https://cycling74.com/tutorials/advanced-max-ffts-part-7 

Alright, thanks for the ideas I will have a read of those tutorials and hopefully I will understand a bit more about what you mean. Cheers

FFT preringing - but only sometimes

I want to make a simple synced counter that goes from 0 - 1, so I can use it to modulate the volume of sounds. But it sounds ever so slightly out of time. In the screenshot you can see little gaps at the start, they are all slightly different sizes of gaps as well which is not good. How can I make it perfectly start on the bar every time?


I want to make a simple synced counter that goes from 0 - 1, so I can use it to modulate the volume of sounds. 

synced-phasor~-counter-not-perfectly-in-sync

Pretty much don't use max-objects in msp and keep everyting in the msp-realm


Ty LUVULONGTIME, I need to convert the signal to a float number because its for an FFT effect, is it still possible to keep it in sync but not as a signal?

No, don't think so* but i'm not convinced you'd even actually need the float? I mean if it's for FFT can't you just keep it within MSP? 


*anytime you get something from MSP you'll get desynchronization because of the way Max and MSP are structured under the hood. Look it up here:
https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/tutorials/03_msphowmspworks


 <Edit> The example above is better because the phasor~ steps through the phase of cycle~ without any Max-object and outputs the value as a float without being (directly) in the signal-chain

Unfortunately i have to keep it as a float because i am sending it to a multislider, which some special effects are being applied to, and then all multislider vals are being put into the fft. 

Would a synced counter that doesnt use a phasor be able to be synced perfectly? If so what would that look like?

"Unfortunately i have to keep it as a float because i am sending it to a multislider, which some special effects are being applied to, and then all multislider vals are being put into the fft."

Ok, my take on this would be to store the values coming from cycle~ in a buffer and perform your effects on this instead and you connect the buffer to the fft. You can do all of this inside MSP if you really need the UI-aspect of the multislider . Have a look at the patch


Hmm okay I am starting to understand. Thanks for the help, I'll try implement this into my project tomorrow

Better use this patch instead as i cleaned it up a bit, no need for a second phasor. You can also drive it from the main one as well to keep everything in sync. And keep in mind that the resolution of multislider is set to 100 which means you have the same value for every 480 samples. Multislider has a max of 4096 so you'll have to figure out a way to make up for those other values if you need a higher resolution.

Okay cheers, luckily i only need 256 sliders :) 

I took the essence of your idea with the peek~ index~ and buffer~ and figured something out. I now have a bit of random preringing problems but other than that it works pretty great so thanks! There is just one feature I dont know how to add if i'm using an audio ramp, I have a feature that rotates the multislider to create a sort of phaserish sound spectrally. But how would I constantly rotate it using the audio ramp?

inside an fft you would use things like piwrap or count~ or the fft index inlet.

for the phasor~ object you can do phase offset like this:

[phasor~]
[+ 0.4]
[%~ 1.]


Could you explain the piwrap / count / index inlet idea a bit more I'm not sure i understand and could only see an fft index outlet on the fftin~ object 

here's a patch that can help you further understand the inner working of pfft~, it uses the old-school capture~ object to help you see the exact bin-count and you can feel free to stick capture~ anywhere else if you need to understand exactly what's going on within a pfft~(very useful to understand how 'magnitude' can differ from 'amplitude' and how 'phase' will wrap between pi and -pi, etc...), just don't leave capture~ in your final patcher, it can still drain cpu unnecessarily:

(^if you save that on your desktop as 'pfftest.maxpat' then you can just create a quick patch in Max like so 👇...

...and then just double-click on the pfft~ to open it up and double-click on capture~ within to see the signal values right there within the context of the pfft~ voice)

This is just to explain one way to synchronize different things to the bin-index outlet of fftin~ and help you snoop how things work within better(see count~ helpfile under the 'signal' tab and that can explain how you can use count~ as well, but the phase-vocoder tutorial i linked you to in the other thread also shows a usage of count~ as well).

Synced Phasor~ counter not perfectly in sync

Popbot

Hey! I'm relatively new to programming in max, and I'm having a lot of issues with the line object. I've seen on other forum posts that it's useful for a slew between signals, so I've been using it to slew between random values. I also wanted it to have a variable slew time, so I did some stuff with messages to be able to change that with a parameter.  The only issue is that on lower slew times (0 - 50-ish milliseconds) i'm getting a lot of values that just go to zero for whatever reason. help would be appreciated! Here's an attached screen recording i took in case my explanation here wasn't sufficient: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLqQrIKe1h4

Hey! I'm relatively new to programming in max, and I'm having a lot of issues with the line object. 

having-a-lot-of-trouble-with-line-object-and-values-being-dropped

taking a quick guess:
you're using 'line' - this is driven by an event-rate scheduler
i think you want to look into reworking your patch using the signal-accurate version: 'line~'
also, take a look at the 'curve~' object if you want line~ but with curvature to the slew
(if you reduce the timing to 0.1, that's in milliseconds, that means not 1 millisecond, but 1/10 of a millisecond, at 48000kHz sample-rate, that would mean 4.8 samples in length of duration, an event-rate scheduler would not be efficient for this(you'd have to set it into 'Overdrive' and 'In Audio Interrupt' and then set the signal-vector to 1 sample, and then you'd have a serious CPU drain... not worth it even if this were possible), so you get the 0s at the end of the ramp automatically because that's the value the event-rate scheduler catches at the frequency it polls for event-rate values)


Cycling '74 Forums

"export max for live device" in Project grayed out

I'm trying to use "Export Max for Live Device" in the Manage Project menu to, well, export to M4L. It is unfortunately gray though.

Note-off data from Live midi clip coming into [notein] is out of sequence.

With launch quantization off, if I play a clip from Live with 8 notes held for one bar, where the notes start at the same exact time and ...

why is live.observer sending values twice in initialization?

stil the same issue here.. someone knows a workaround ? win10 . Live 11.2.10b2 Max 8.5.2

CPU usage test M1 vs Intel?

Hi, Is there a way to check a usage difference between M1 and Intel? I've developed an instrument in Max using Gen, and I have tremendous ...

Simple patch causes CPU spike in M4L, but not in straight Max

Yeah, I split the data into individual units with their own receive objects for each numbox. It significantly cuts down on the redundancy.

How to detect when a Live session (project) has completely loaded and ready to play?

Thanks for the suggestions. I've gone with the 8th output of plugsync~.

Send a list as device parameter

Hi I'd like to fetch the values of a multislider object as device parameter. I set the parameter mode of the multislider, its visibility ...

FFT preringing - but only sometimes

Alright, thanks for the ideas I will have a read of those tutorials and hopefully I will understand a bit more about what you mean. Cheers

Synced Phasor~ counter not perfectly in sync

Hey thanks I will check it out!

Having a lot of trouble with [line] object and values being dropped.

taking a quick guess: you're using 'line' - this is driven by an event-rate scheduler i think you want to look into reworking your patch ...