Autechre Patch

This conversation maybe long and dead, but the talk about tricks, giving away tricks and the such interested me.

To start off, i myself am a Studio Engineer, also a Music Producer and in my free time an artist, plus a few other things. This is actually my job, i am on a payrole being a Studio Engineer.

The thing with giving away tricks is like a double edged sword. You can give away tricks, but those tricks may come back to you by someone else using them, namely the person who you showed them to.

With myself, i do give away pointers instead, not tricks. this is the same with nearly every producer/engineer in the business. Because your tricks are your tricks, it is what gives you your sound.

I am currently working on an album for release, and do have the artist sitting with me while i produce his album. But i also have a friend (David) who sits with me and watches what i do (or at least tries to). And i talk to him and say what things i am using to get a certain sound.
He has a hard time to get to start to make music, so i help him.
But i do not give away the tricks that i have come to teach myself over the years of producing albums and ep's and my own material.
It is not fair on myself if he starts to use my tricks that i have taught myself, it would annoy me. So i dont show people what tricks i have up my sleeve.

As for Max patches. I feel that if you give max patches to people, you will have to expect that these people will share them out. But that is not always the case.
I have given a few max patches to people but in MXF format, so it can only be run in runtime, and not be messed with, also putting my name on it as well.
But myself, i live out in a country that does not even know max/msp, nor is it interested in my new breed of music. Because i dont make commercial house music.

I believe your tricks are your tricks, whether it is your friends or a loved one.
I dont share any of my best tricks, because that is what defines my music, especially the music i have been pumping out lately (myspace, have a check if you get bored).

So the end to this story is, share if you want to share, but expect those people to then share to others.
If you share, that is giving a gateway for others to find out, even if you dont want them to know.

Also as a bit of an extra incentive. If anyone reads Sound On Sound magazine, you will notice in the album production pages, where it show how a track or album was made in todays days, you will see there Pro Tools set up, but also there outboard hardware, sometimes they sellotape a piece of white paper over there special production trick, which is hardware. either being a compressor or reverb, but it is so special in there production and sound, that they can not let them know what it is.

thinking back a little

was'nt there an issue once that Autechre them self had hacked an application built by karlheinz Essl .

Karlheinz was not too happy either , asking shawn Booth "at least give me some credit !!!!"

Shawn Booth's ansewer was (if I remember right ,very aggressive towards him ending up with a big f**k you attitude)

naughty naughty !!!!!!

i remember that post

I remember them saying that they had not used the patch, or had said that they modelled something like it, or something like that

I dont remember the F U, though

well Shawn never said the word F U

but definatly quiet aggresive attitude nether the less

karlheinze said he believed autechre had used their patch. sean said he would have credited him if he had, and "give me some credit" was sean's quote. its all in the archives

I'm puzzled by this idea of "tricks." The point is to make music, and
if Max is being used to make music, that's just a tool. The music is
up to the individual maker. To keep patches as 'secrets' is more
align with some kind of software product than a piece of music.

A Max patch, in this context, is an instruction set for music making.
So is a musical score, and that ranges from a Mozart Piano Concerto
the "I Am Sitting In A Room," where the piece itself is also it's
instructions/descriptions, or a wall drawing from Sol Lewitt. This
obsession with the secrecy of a patch, rather than the music, leads to
what Andrew Hugill describes as technological listening, where one
listens for the means, rather than the ideas. If one is listening
technologically, than the music is not interesting enough to gain the
attention.

A patch is just a patch, how a musician uses it matters. I think an
ideal mark of a good patch is that it can be distributed and used by
various people to make different, successful, musics.

On Aug 17, 2008, at 2:34 AM, Lewis G. Edwards wrote:

>
> This conversation maybe long and dead, but the talk about tricks,
> giving away tricks and the such interested me.
>
> To start off, i myself am a Studio Engineer, also a Music Producer
> and in my free time an artist, plus a few other things. This is
> actually my job, i am on a payrole being a Studio Engineer.
>
> The thing with giving away tricks is like a double edged sword. You
> can give away tricks, but those tricks may come back to you by
> someone else using them, namely the person who you showed them to.
>
> With myself, i do give away pointers instead, not tricks. this is
> the same with nearly every producer/engineer in the business.
> Because your tricks are your tricks, it is what gives you your sound.
>
> I am currently working on an album for release, and do have the
> artist sitting with me while i produce his album. But i also have a
> friend (David) who sits with me and watches what i do (or at least
> tries to). And i talk to him and say what things i am using to get a
> certain sound.
> He has a hard time to get to start to make music, so i help him.
> But i do not give away the tricks that i have come to teach myself
> over the years of producing albums and ep's and my own material.
> It is not fair on myself if he starts to use my tricks that i have
> taught myself, it would annoy me. So i dont show people what tricks
> i have up my sleeve.
>
> As for Max patches. I feel that if you give max patches to people,
> you will have to expect that these people will share them out. But
> that is not always the case.
> I have given a few max patches to people but in MXF format, so it
> can only be run in runtime, and not be messed with, also putting my
> name on it as well.
> But myself, i live out in a country that does not even know max/msp,
> nor is it interested in my new breed of music. Because i dont make
> commercial house music.
>
> I believe your tricks are your tricks, whether it is your friends or
> a loved one.
> I dont share any of my best tricks, because that is what defines my
> music, especially the music i have been pumping out lately (myspace,
> have a check if you get bored).
>
> So the end to this story is, share if you want to share, but expect
> those people to then share to others.
> If you share, that is giving a gateway for others to find out, even
> if you dont want them to know.
>
> Also as a bit of an extra incentive. If anyone reads Sound On Sound
> magazine, you will notice in the album production pages, where it
> show how a track or album was made in todays days, you will see
> there Pro Tools set up, but also there outboard hardware, sometimes
> they sellotape a piece of white paper over there special production
> trick, which is hardware. either being a compressor or reverb, but
> it is so special in there production and sound, that they can not
> let them know what it is.
>
> --
> -----
> LGE
> Artist/Producer/Quasi Thinker
> -----
> www.myspace.com/lewisgedwards
> Organic Electronic Music
>

Lewis G. Edwards schrieb:
> The thing with giving away tricks is like a double edged sword. You
> can give away tricks, but those tricks may come back to you by
> someone else using them, namely the person who you showed them to.

I would be honoured if what I teach is used. I share my tricks and if
they feed somebody else its fine and exactly what I would wish for my
friends. I'd never ever would consider a student being a competitor, the
distance is too big... ;-)

> With myself, i do give away pointers instead, not tricks. this is the
> same with nearly every producer/engineer in the business. Because
> your tricks are your tricks, it is what gives you your sound.

With tricks in audio, its like with tricks in wizardry, even if you know
the trick, you still need to practice it. There is absolutely no danger
to give away tricks. In Music its your listening skills and experience
which counts. If you only have tricks, you will sound like everybody,
which is exactly what is asked for in the pop world, that's probably
much more the secret of your success than the tricks... ;-)

> I believe your tricks are your tricks, whether it is your friends or
> a loved one. I dont share any of my best tricks, because that is what
> defines my music, especially the music i have been pumping out
> lately (myspace, have a check if you get bored).

Your music didn't bore me, its pretty original, and I can tell you that
anybody who would know your tricks, would still make very different
music. I don't see any danger, I'd rather expect that I know your tricks
already, though your music doesn't sound too tricky... ;-)

> So the end to this story is, share if you want to share, but expect
> those people to then share to others. If you share, that is giving a
> gateway for others to find out, even if you dont want them to know.

I certainly want them to know and share to others, check out my St.ools
and have fun... Then search for that Youtube video (or Myspace) and tell
me what's the connection between my tricks and my music...
And I bet you won't be able to make the same music even if I'd tell you
all my tricks... (And why should you, you make your own music...)

> Also as a bit of an extra incentive. If anyone reads Sound On Sound
> magazine, you will notice in the album production pages, where it
> show how a track or album was made in todays days, you will see there
> Pro Tools set up, but also there outboard hardware, sometimes they
> sellotape a piece of white paper over there special production trick,
> which is hardware. either being a compressor or reverb, but it is so
> special in there production and sound, that they can not let them
> know what it is.

The bigger the paranoia, the less knowledge. As if a reverb would make
the music. Some of the producers just use the most expensive gear to
create a distinction between them and the poor mass. As if they had no
skills at all (And if its a cheap nanoverb they hide it... ;-)
That expensive stuff does sound damn good for sure, but any skilled
engineer will pull out great music with less effort as well...
The gear is never the trick...

Stefan

--
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
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--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com

Stefan:-

Well all what I said is my personal preferance. Of the side that not that many people are interested because it is not there style of music, what i do and what i make. so fair enough.

If i am a teacher , in which i have been a few times to help people, being a class teacher in music, a drumming teacher and also an engineer teacher. Yeah, i agree that passing on 'tricks' to them is fine. but not your best tricks that have taken a long time to figure out.
I have taught my students tricks, yeah. But i won't show them 'MY' tricks.
I show them the tricks that can help them faster. such as how to do Hard Side Chaining Compression to Mix with Lead Pads. Giving that all knowing sound of dance and house music. Or how to get that Rock/Metal, kick drum 'thud' sound.
Those tricks i have taught for years, they're second nature to me, when i teach.
But there are just some things that are mine and only mine, because for one it has taken me a long time to get the kind of sound i want.
I dont want someone to know my tricks that soon, they would have to work on it themselves, like i did.

You have to work, to get what you truelly want, not from some other guy.

And as for my music, pleasure you like it.

I guess I'm just not getting what all the talk is about 'tricks' - whether shared or kept. I don't think one can really build a career on 'tricks' - either in the arts or in audio engineering. Ideas, concepts, techniques, these are part and parcel of being a creative person in whatever field. Tricks are more transitory and easily replicated - trendy and soon to be outdated.

I'd recommend to anyone in creative fields to focus less on learning or guarding tricks and spend more on crafting a set of concepts and techniques that will serve you well in whatever you do. Curiosity, adventurousness, and open-mindedness being chief among them.

Just my $0.02...