careers in Max/MSP?
Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/msp and studio skills.
Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture myself doing all day :p
cheers,
Danjel
There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
However, consider freelancing!
Work makes one free...
b
On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>
> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
> msp and studio skills.
>
> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
> myself doing all day :p
>
>
> cheers,
> Danjel
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
hahah but that is a scary way to live when you have mortgage payments to make :P BUT being your own boss is really the best way to live.
You think there is freelance work to do with the video game companies? Maybe that is an ideal compromise.... what would one charge (hourly rate) for doing specialized max/programming work?
cheers,
Danjel
Actually, I would have to disagree with you there.
I have been doing game development for quite some
time now. No one in the gaming industry does much
with Max. Maybe there are individuals who like to
use it to do prototypes and of course the sound
design people may use it. But out side of that, it is not
very common. Audio and sound are a small part
of the total work that goes into making a video game.
It would seem that the main audience for doing Max work
is the academic world. I would be curious to know if
you academic types out there use Max contract programmers
or do you rely on cheap grad student labor? I feel
there is the need for free programming agents who
can pick up any design doc and implement it. Thus freeing
the academic to be creative instead of having to devote countless
hours to learn Processing, or assembler, or C++, etc.
How would you recommend one go about marketing themselves?
Anthony
----- Original Message -----
From: barry threw
Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: [maxmsp] careers in Max/MSP?
> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free...
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> >
> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that
> have
> > involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
> >
> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models
> audio
> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
>
> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding,
> max/
> > msp and studio skills.
> >
> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>
> > myself doing all day :p
> >
> >
> > cheers,
> > Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>
Interesting. The closest ive heard is companies like EA developing
their own in house patching environments, but I did not realize people
used 'vanilla' Max within game dev stuff.
To model GUIs?
Now im scared. Id love to know more - out of curiosity.
I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various
clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe
thats just me!
On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:57 PM, barry threw wrote:
> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free...
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
>>
>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
>> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>>
>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
>> msp and studio skills.
>>
>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>> myself doing all day :p
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
There aren't exactly opportunities jumping on my lap. Care to expound
on how you get opportunities, Barry? Maybe it's cuz I'm just out of
school, but i feel a bit handicapped in that area.
Keith
On 11/6/07, barry threw wrote:
> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free...
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> >
> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
> > involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
> >
> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
> > msp and studio skills.
> >
> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
> > myself doing all day :p
> >
> >
> > cheers,
> > Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>
--
Keith Manlove
(512) 825-9176
keithmanlove@gmail.com
I too work in game development and I have to say that I agree with Anthony - there is not a lot of Max work going on in these environments.
Myself - i have done work in Max at my various companies... but it was more a means to an end (solving a specific pipeline problem, prototyping something quickly to demonstrate to a co-worker). I can't really imagine a game company with the resources, understanding, and foresight to hire someone exclusively as a max/msp programmer.
Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++. If you are an expert at those, and also know Max... that would be your ticket in.
hope that helps,
dan
On a side note - if you match that description (expert in C++, and C#, experience with Max) and you are in the Los Angeles area and interested in taking on a full time job in game development, please contact me off list with your resume. An exciting opportunity awaits... can't say anymore here because of NDA's
dan at doctorop dot com
/dan
Quote: doctor op wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 16:46
----------------------------------------------------
> Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++. If you are an expert at those, and also know Max... that would be your ticket in.
>
> hope that helps,
> dan
----------------------------------------------------
> what would one charge (hourly rate) for doing specialized max/
> programming work?
There is the question of the ages.
Short answer, whatever you can get.
For me, it is weighted dependent on:
a) perceived wealth of the client (individual or corporation, profile)
b) possibility of recurring return work
c) how much fun I'm going to have / if there is artistic merit
d) how much money the final product is going to make
With that said, I have a baseline that determined by my cost of
living, and so can't work for less than that. That being said, I am
insane; I haven't made my employment choices largely based upon wise
financial planning at this stage in my life. It's the kind of choice
you have to make.
My only piece of hard advice is to move to an area with a good
scene. For games, San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, LA, New York,
possibly Boston. For art, San Francisco, LA, New York, Montreal,
Berlin, London, Tokyo, and its looking more and more like Mexico
City. There are probably some more.
$0.02
b
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
You left out one of the biggest cities for video games! (and where I live) Vancouver ;)
The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.
wes
My experience is that potential employers/clients tend to be more
concerned with what you are capable of producing and how you conduct
yourself than what software you use. Consider MaxMSP to be part of your
general toolset for sound design, interactivity, theatrical tech, or
whatever your focus tends to be. Focus more on doing good work and
developing a portfolio/resume than on what applications you are familiar
with.
That said, some people in this community can supplement their wages well
by doing the occasional MaxMSP consulting/programming gig. If this is
your interest, it helps to live in an area where there are a profusion
of new media artists running around looking for someone to help them
fulfill the requirements of their most recent concept or grant. I don't
know anybody who pays their rent doing that, but perhaps you will be
more lucky. It's all pretty much word of mouth, so you will have to be
willing to meet people occasionally.
As for video game dev, I too have talked to some video game sound dudes
that said that MaxMSP or Pd skills were definitely regarded as
beneficial for job opportunities. Mind you, they aren't the only skills
required of the job, and my information is purely anecdotal. I've never
applied for a video game job.
Good luck,
Andrew
I don't know how much is public information, probably not much, so I
have to be cautious and say not much more.
b
On Nov 6, 2007, at 3:15 PM, vade wrote:
> Interesting. The closest ive heard is companies like EA developing
> their own in house patching environments, but I did not realize
> people used 'vanilla' Max within game dev stuff.
>
> To model GUIs?
>
> Now im scared. Id love to know more - out of curiosity.
>
> I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various
> clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe
> thats just me!
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:57 PM, barry threw wrote:
>
>> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>>
>> However, consider freelancing!
>>
>> Work makes one free...
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that
>>> have involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>>>
>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models
>>> audio engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/
>>> msp and that there was actually a deficit of people versed in
>>> coding, max/msp and studio skills.
>>>
>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>>> myself doing all day :p
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Danjel
>>>
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
Now that you've said that, I can concur.
b
On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:14 PM, Wesley Smith wrote:
> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
> for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.
>
> wes
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
Oh yeah, of course.
Sorry.
b
On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> You left out one of the biggest cities for video games! (and where
> I live) Vancouver ;)
>
>
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
I wish I had good advice on this front. I think it mostly just takes
time. You also have to create a network of friends and associates in
the field you would like to work in (media art, games). I think
conferences that aren't too expensive can help, but in a long term way.
The main piece of advice? Be involved. In whatever area of work you
want to be in, just show up to places where there are more people
that do what you do and attempt to be creative with them. Find
people that do something different than what you do, because they are
the ones that will need you. Diversifying your skill set helps...the
more things you can do, the more things you can find to do. Learn C.
If you are freelance, you basically have to be looking all the time
for opportunities to keep your schedule full. Sometimes this results
in the schedule being too full to do anything else except work 26
hours a day, but that is necessary to keep from having a month long
dry spell.
More random advice that may not be worth anything...
b
On Nov 6, 2007, at 3:16 PM, keith manlove wrote:
> There aren't exactly opportunities jumping on my lap. Care to expound
> on how you get opportunities, Barry? Maybe it's cuz I'm just out of
> school, but i feel a bit handicapped in that area.
>
> Keith
>
> On 11/6/07, barry threw wrote:
>> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>>
>> However, consider freelancing!
>>
>> Work makes one free...
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
>>> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>>>
>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
>>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
>>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
>>> msp and studio skills.
>>>
>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>>> myself doing all day :p
>>>
>>>
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
I guess this is what I was trying to say...but Andrew said it better.
Be involved in the arts that you want to do, and for a certain subset
of them, Max turns out to be an effective tool for realizing your
projects.
b
On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:19 PM, andrew benson wrote:
> My experience is that potential employers/clients tend to be more
> concerned with what you are capable of producing and how you
> conduct yourself than what software you use. Consider MaxMSP to be
> part of your general toolset for sound design, interactivity,
> theatrical tech, or whatever your focus tends to be. Focus more on
> doing good work and developing a portfolio/resume than on what
> applications you are familiar with.
>
> That said, some people in this community can supplement their wages
> well by doing the occasional MaxMSP consulting/programming gig. If
> this is your interest, it helps to live in an area where there are
> a profusion of new media artists running around looking for someone
> to help them fulfill the requirements of their most recent concept
> or grant. I don't know anybody who pays their rent doing that, but
> perhaps you will be more lucky. It's all pretty much word of
> mouth, so you will have to be willing to meet people occasionally.
>
> As for video game dev, I too have talked to some video game sound
> dudes that said that MaxMSP or Pd skills were definitely regarded
> as beneficial for job opportunities. Mind you, they aren't the
> only skills required of the job, and my information is purely
> anecdotal. I've never applied for a video game job.
>
> Good luck,
> Andrew
>
>
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
Hey Wes and list,
I would have to second that since I happened to be one of the people who
worked on the generative/interactive music for Spore. We used PD heavily and
definitely prototyped with max. As far as I can tell though, it's the only
team in the industry doing anything like it. Hopefully Spore will pave the
way for note-based interactive music in the industry... :)
As for tips on reproducing the lucky break for yourself, I'm not sure I can
help. Maybe most importantly, I met the guys working on the game at a maxmsp
workshop at UC Berkeley and followed up with the inevitable casual business
card exchange. I was also working on a generative music project of my own
that was similar to their method.
I'll also agree with Andrew Benson about conduct (whom I've met at the same
workshop in Berkeley). I'm not sure how Andrew meant what he said, and it's
hard to explain exactly, but independent of your ability or resume, the
impression you give of yourself is important when somebody is deciding on
whether or not they want to spend a lot of money and time working with you.
The game industry is weird in how it produces negative attitudes from
artists -- usually either variations of artistic superiority (you are above
games, a true artist, etc) or desperate adoration (you've loved games your
whole life, etc).
Hopefully that was useful... :)
You can hear some of my generative stuff I was doing with max before Spore
if you are curious:
http://www.minuskelvin.com/pythagoras/
(sorry, it's not a real web page... been meaning to update my site for like
a year. The main page is my non-generative "pop" stuff I was doing a long
while ago.)
Aaron
On Nov 6, 2007 4:14 PM, Wesley Smith wrote:
> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
> for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.
>
> wes
>
hurray! an interesting discussion. i knew we still had it in us.
from my experience, c++ programmers are going to have a much easier time finding interesting/lucrative work.
it seems that for the last decade or so, computer science programs have been pimping java as the second coming, and neglecting to teach students hardcore c and c++. the result being an overabundance of java programmers and a deficit of c++ programmers.
this just reiterates the point made by others, diversify your skills and you will find work. especially folks that can combine technical wizardry with creativity and artistry.
-rob
Danjel van Tijn wrote:
> BUT being your own boss is really the best way to live.
Really? I always though that was the worst boss you could possibly have.
;-)
Trond
> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>
I know there are a few people at the local interactive science museum -- the explOratorium -- who are Max users, one position is full time. It is technically a .edu, but not quite a university. There is some call for these skills in the world of interactive exhibit design, although you'd probably want additional fabrication, design, and or electronics chops to go with them.
I've done a fair bit of freelance programming, and that is far and away much more common. Almost all of my jobs have come from knowing the right person at the right time. And to meet those people, I did a fair bit of public performance, teaching, etc. It's hardest to get started, but once you have a reputation for being competent, it gets easier.
I should add to Barry's billing scheme:
d) How much phone support am I going to have to provide?
I've found that more than half of my time is spend explaining to clients how to operate their computers, or in long design meetings. Consider the whole project, not just the time spent programming.
Also, there is the interesting concern of artists wanting you to make their pieces. It is worth deciding early on where your input as a technical assistant stops and when you become a co-creator of a piece. This is a very tricky grey area with no fixed rules.
That being said, I've had a lot of fun making things for people.
mz
mz
> Also, there is the interesting concern of artists wanting you to
> make their pieces. It is worth deciding early on where your input
> as a technical assistant stops and when you become a co-creator of
> a piece. This is a very tricky grey area with no fixed rules.
This is where I draw the line. I am happy to do artistic
collaborations with anyone, but I will not _work_ on a piece (or stop
working on one) where the artist does not have a clear vision of
where they want the piece to go. Not that it can't change over the
course of the project, but there has to be some vision and clear
aesthetic or conceptual goals or else a system becomes impossible to
design, and you end up with an epic failure of a piece.
b
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
Quote: barry threw wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 11:14
----------------------------------------------------
> > Also, there is the interesting concern of artists wanting you to
> > make their pieces. It is worth deciding early on where your input
> > as a technical assistant stops and when you become a co-creator of
> > a piece. This is a very tricky grey area with no fixed rules.
>
> This is where I draw the line. I am happy to do artistic
> collaborations with anyone, but I will not _work_ on a piece (or stop
> working on one) where the artist does not have a clear vision of
> where they want the piece to go. Not that it can't change over the
> course of the project, but there has to be some vision and clear
> aesthetic or conceptual goals or else a system becomes impossible to
> design, and you end up with an epic failure of a piece.
>
>
Genau, d'accord, indeed.
Where I get into trouble is the situation where I'm making something for someone who is a good artist, but doesn't have much technology experience. It seems reasonable for me, as a tech adviser, to give my thoughts on what is possible and not possible in the medium. I sometimes have this dialog:
artist: I want some snazzy process that is like this thing.
mzed: Oh, I just made my own piece that is a little like that, let me show you.
artist: Great, that's perfect, ship it.
And suddenly, my piece has become their piece, and it's 80% my fault. It is also uncomfortable to *not* show my work in this situation, though, because I feel like I'm holding back. At least for me, I have to be constantly vigilant about what code I feel artistic ownership over, and what aspects I'm glad to sell as a contractor. I'm sure some of this craziness is because I hold an academic job and am always on the academic job market, which makes me feel that getting my name on my work is somehow important.
If I feel this situation is going to come up in a job, I usually suggest that I change from being a well-paid subcontractor to a less-well-paid artistic collaborator. That is, trade some of my fiscal investment in a project for an aesthetic one. Of course, this only works if the artist has, as Barry says, a clear vision, and a vision that I'm compatible with. These kind of issues have come up in conversations with "musical assistants" I've met in various locations. I think every person is different, but it would certainly be a good idea to consider yourself before taking a job. The more you plan ahead, the less likely it is you will find yourself neck deep in a project you are not happy about.
And it is really an old problem. You can go back and read grumbles from members of Duke Ellington's band because he incorporated their personal, improvisational vocabulary into *his* compositions -- which he most certainly did. I don't know how much of this relates to money, and how much is about ego.
Again, the majority of my collaborations have been happy ones, and I feel lucky to have worked with the people I have worked with. I'm glad to be in a position at the moment where I can choose carefully.
mz
> And it is really an old problem. You can go back and read grumbles
> from members of Duke Ellington's band because he incorporated their
> personal, improvisational vocabulary into *his* compositions --
> which he most certainly did. I don't know how much of this relates
> to money, and how much is about ego.
No shit?! Is there a reference on that?
b
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
For me, working on someone else's project is exactly the same thing as playing in someone else's band. There simply needs to be someone in charge. If it's not me, then I'm probably getting paid to do what I'm doing and I'm more than happy to bring all my best toys along and "play" as well as I can. This way I might get asked back or it might lead to something else. The person in charge gets to make the line calls, and if I don't like them then that's my problem.
I like this list - I think it applies pretty well in a general sense to doing any kind of contract work.
-A
great thread. its especially relevant since i'm currently writing an article on 'programmers as musicians'. the whole music technology craze has definitely blurred the line between the instrument builder and the instrument user...and who should get what 'credit'. take any acoustic instrument; does the guitar maker or the guitar player get 'credit' for the end creative piece?
I think that for generative music software instruments, the makers definitely deserve mention. But what about something as simple as an arpeggiator? That is a form of a generative process that the musician can't neccessarily take credit for 'playing'.
Then you have the hoards of people that use only presets for their music. Does the sound designer that created the preset get credit for the piece?
I think that a lot of it depends on how well the user artist knows the instrument, and their ability to control the instrument and make it their own.
regardless, any artist worth their salt will give credit where credit is due...if you feel a tad bit guilty about using something that you didn't wholly create, then you should probably give away the credit....
:)
At 1:28 PM -0800 11/7/07, barry threw wrote:
>>And it is really an old problem. You can go back and read grumbles from members of Duke Ellington's band because he incorporated their personal, improvisational vocabulary into *his* compositions -- which he most certainly did. I don't know how much of this relates to money, and how much is about ego.
>
>No shit?! Is there a reference on that?
IIRC, Billy Strayhorn quit Ellington over that for a while.
-C
--
Chris Muir | "There are many futures and only one status quo.
cbm@well.com | This is why conservatives mostly agree,
http://www.xfade.com | and radicals always argue." - Brian Eno
> Actually, I would have to disagree with you there.
> I have been doing game development for quite some
> time now. No one in the gaming industry does much
> with Max.
Not true. I know specific instances of it happening, right now, at
major studios, at various points in the pipeline.
> Audio and sound are a small part
> of the total work that goes into making a video game.
Well, thats a fucking problem! Thats why game audio sucks ass!
Maybe if there were a few people that had experience with interactive
music systems actually making interactive music, then we could have
some movement on this front. The lack of interactivity in game audio
is sighted as a problem by everyone I have talked to in game audio
studios, and Max teaches those skills.
b
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
Lush Life == best song ever.
b
On Nov 7, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Chris Muir wrote:
> At 1:28 PM -0800 11/7/07, barry threw wrote:
>>> And it is really an old problem. You can go back and read
>>> grumbles from members of Duke Ellington's band because he
>>> incorporated their personal, improvisational vocabulary into
>>> *his* compositions -- which he most certainly did. I don't know
>>> how much of this relates to money, and how much is about ego.
>>
>> No shit?! Is there a reference on that?
>
> IIRC, Billy Strayhorn quit Ellington over that for a while.
>
> -C
>
> --
> Chris Muir | "There are many futures and only one status
> quo.
> cbm@well.com | This is why conservatives mostly agree,
> http://www.xfade.com | and radicals always argue." - Brian Eno
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
I wonder if max/msp would be used more widely if it could be
integrated into a different environment more easily. My ideal would
be to have an option to compile a patch into a loadable lib or bundle
of some kind, with 'main' inlets of some kind that could be accessed
from an enclosing application. Or at the very least an option to run
max/msp as a command-line prog with no UI. Maybe there is a way to do
this already?
I made a fun little dashboard widget a week or so ago:
and very much wanted to use max/msp, but I don't know how I could have
imbedded it in the widget javascript, so I used RTcmix instead. Maybe
using the max patch as a plugin might have worked...
I beg to differ with you. Although there may be some
instances of individuals who use it in their work,
for the most part it is not used extensively
in the game industry and very rarely in any
content pipeline. (Assuming you are not doing sound
design stuff.) Programmers have to develop code that
allows them the least resistance to porting that
to different environments (PC, Xbox, PS), which is why
no one in the game industry really uses Max.
-ap
----- Original Message -----
From: barry threw
Date: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:37 pm
Subject: Re: [maxmsp] careers in Max/MSP?
> > Actually, I would have to disagree with you there.
> > I have been doing game development for quite some
> > time now. No one in the gaming industry does much
> > with Max.
>
> Not true. I know specific instances of it happening, right now, at
>
> major studios, at various points in the pipeline.
>
> > Audio and sound are a small part
> > of the total work that goes into making a video game.
>
> Well, thats a fucking problem! Thats why game audio sucks ass!
> Maybe if there were a few people that had experience with
> interactive
> music systems actually making interactive music, then we could have
>
> some movement on this front. The lack of interactivity in game
> audio
> is sighted as a problem by everyone I have talked to in game audio
> studios, and Max teaches those skills.
>
> b
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>
Quoting apalomba@austin.rr.com:
> I would be curious to know if
> you academic types out there use Max contract programmers
> or do you rely on cheap grad student labor?
nah, we use cheap faculty labor.
Quote: barry threw wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 15:36
----------------------------------------------------
> Well, thats a fucking problem! Thats why game audio sucks ass!
> Maybe if there were a few people that had experience with interactive
> music systems actually making interactive music, then we could have
> some movement on this front. The lack of interactivity in game audio
> is sighted as a problem by everyone I have talked to in game audio
> studios, and Max teaches those skills.
----------------------------------------------------
So please don't take this the wrong way, but I can only assume from this comment that you have little to no experience actually working in the games industry.
As you mention... most people that are in game audio, doing the work day to day, recognize that there is great potential to enhance the level of interactivity within games (both with regards to music and sound effects). The problem is that typically no one above them (producers, executives, etc) can perceive the value of the extra time and cost needed to pursue this advanced level of interactivity.
If there's one thing that I've learned in my time in the industry, it is that big budget games are a business first, and a creative endeavor second. Now, granted, there are games out there like Spore that are doing great things with generative music... but that is also a game with a seemingly unlimited budget and schedule, backed by the largest and richest developer in the industry. For the rest of us... we are generally working under relatively tight budgets and schedules.
I can honestly say that the push for improved audio technology in games is something that I fight for every day at my company. But you can't capture interactive music in a screenshot to put on the back of a box, and with the advent of technologies like the Xbox360 Music Player (which allows players to completely mute the in-game music and replace it with their own mp3 collection) you have to realize that it's an up-hill battle.
So I guess my point is - I agree that there is a lack of innovation in game audio but I swear it's not for a lack of trying! Maybe Spore will become a bazillion-copy seller and the game's generative audio will become widely recognized as THE selling point of the game (although more than likely people will be so busy building 3 legged creatures that they'll barely notice - sorry Aaron! I'll be listening!). But until then... I'm afraid it will continue to be an ongoing problem.
/dan
This is easy to settle.
While you don't know anyone in the games industry using Max, I do.
There. That wasn't so hard.
b
Wrong. I am in the games industry, and I am using Max. At this point in my life, I know myself about as well as I ever will. I also know others at other companies that use Max from time to time.
My point isn't that it isn't being used. My point is that it isn't being WIDELY used, and that a job where you are doing just Max and nothing else would be hard to come by in the games industry.
/dan
Quote: barry threw wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 16:22
----------------------------------------------------
> This is easy to settle.
>
> While you don't know anyone in the games industry using Max, I do.
>
> There. That wasn't so hard.
>
> b
>
>
----------------------------------------------------
I did not say that I do not know anyone in the game
industry that uses it. As is said, I am sure there may
be some instances of individuals who use it in their work,
but for the most part it is not used extensively in the
game industry. Speaking from experience, I guarantee you
will not find much work in the game industry as a Max
programmer.
-ap
----- Original Message -----
From: barry threw
Date: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:24 pm
Subject: Re: [maxmsp] careers in Max/MSP?
> This is easy to settle.
>
> While you don't know anyone in the games industry using Max, I do.
>
> There. That wasn't so hard.
>
> b
>
> On Nov 7, 2007, at 2:58 PM, apalomba@austin.rr.com wrote:
>
> > I beg to differ with you. Although there may be some
> > instances of individuals who use it in their work,
> > for the most part it is not used extensively
> > in the game industry and very rarely in any
> > content pipeline. (Assuming you are not doing sound
> > design stuff.) Programmers have to develop code that
> > allows them the least resistance to porting that
> > to different environments (PC, Xbox, PS), which is why
> > no one in the game industry really uses Max.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -ap
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: barry threw
> > Date: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:37 pm
> > Subject: Re: [maxmsp] careers in Max/MSP?
> >
> >>> Actually, I would have to disagree with you there.
> >>> I have been doing game development for quite some
> >>> time now. No one in the gaming industry does much
> >>> with Max.
> >>
> >> Not true. I know specific instances of it happening, right now, at
> >>
> >> major studios, at various points in the pipeline.
> >>
> >>> Audio and sound are a small part
> >>> of the total work that goes into making a video game.
> >>
> >> Well, thats a fucking problem! Thats why game audio sucks ass!
> >> Maybe if there were a few people that had experience with
> >> interactive
> >> music systems actually making interactive music, then we could have
> >>
> >> some movement on this front. The lack of interactivity in game
> >> audio
> >> is sighted as a problem by everyone I have talked to in game audio
> >> studios, and Max teaches those skills.
> >>
> >> b
> >>
> >> Barry Threw
> >> Media Art and Technology
> >>
> >>
> >> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> >> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> >> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> >> http:/www.barrythrew.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>
> So please don't take this the wrong way, but I can only assume from
> this comment that you have little to no experience actually working
> in the games industry.
> Etc...
Well, you are right on several counts.
First, I'll come clean, I haven't worked on a major video game. I
am, indeed, kind of ancillary to the industry at this juncture. If
that destroys my credibility on this matter, so be it. However, this
is not to say that I haven't worked with, and talked heavily about,
the issues with interactive audio with people in the industry. I am
really not talking out my ass here.
My previous post came off the wrong way to you, and I apologize. I
actually worded it poorly, and made it sound like there wasn't no one
with this in mind, which is far from the truth. There are many
people working in game studios that really try to get this stuff
pushed, it sounds like yourself included. These are talented people,
who know what they are doing. However, I think there are also many
people doing audio for games that compose in another fashion and do
not understand the benefits that interactive audio can provide.
And, I really agree with you. I think the larger problem is that the
studio management does not understand the benefit of richly
interactive audio, and so the funding is not there to make it happen,
by people that could make it happen. I mean, if Burning Crusade is
going to sell just as many copies no matter how interactive the music
is, why spend the money on it. This is a different problem.
I hear your sentiments exactly echoed by everyone else I've talked
to, with the addition that they've worked with many composers who
don't understand interactive audio.
b
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
I was responding to the other post, that stated "no one in the game
industry really uses Max".
Thus, my response.
I, also, don't think its being widely used, and a job where you are
doing just Max is hard to come by anywhere. However, I do know
several cases where Max is used and those aren't going to go away
because someone else says there is no one using Max in the games
industry. And add one to that, because you use it. And add two to
it, because I assume Mr. ap is as well.
b
On Nov 7, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Dan wrote:
>
> Wrong. I am in the games industry, and I am using Max. At this
> point in my life, I know myself about as well as I ever will. I
> also know others at other companies that use Max from time to time.
>
> My point isn't that it isn't being used. My point is that it isn't
> being WIDELY used, and that a job where you are doing just Max and
> nothing else would be hard to come by in the games industry.
>
> /dan
>
> Quote: barry threw wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 16:22
> ----------------------------------------------------
>> This is easy to settle.
>>
>> While you don't know anyone in the games industry using Max, I do.
>>
>> There. That wasn't so hard.
>>
>> b
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
Eh, I feel like this "argument" is all semantics anyway, and we are
probably saying the same thing.
I would never suggest that anyone roll into any situation with just
Max under their belt. My only point was I know some places its being
used.
Anyway, good game.
b
Quote: robtherich wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 18:08
----------------------------------------------------
> it seems that for the last decade or so, computer science
> programs have been pimping java as the second coming, and
> neglecting to teach students hardcore c and c++.
I do wonder if that's largely a result of Java being a lot easier for them to teach to the dimmer subspecies of undergrad. Makes for better grade averages, everyone looks good. Perhaps I'm being cynical ;-)
> >
> >No shit?! Is there a reference on that?
>
> IIRC, Billy Strayhorn quit Ellington over that for a while.
>
>
See:
aka
I don't know of other legal actions, but I can dig through some books when I get home for disgruntled improvisors.
mz
I would LOVE to be able to do this.
I've thought about switching to using PD or SuperCollider for this very reason. Despite all its flexibility Max is still far too restrictive in terms of what you can do with the final product.
Quote: Bradford Garton wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 22:58
----------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if max/msp would be used more widely if it could be
> integrated into a different environment more easily. My ideal would
> be to have an option to compile a patch into a loadable lib or bundle
> of some kind, with 'main' inlets of some kind that could be accessed
> from an enclosing application. Or at the very least an option to run
> max/msp as a command-line prog with no UI. Maybe there is a way to do
> this already?
Please pardon me for intruding in this rather interesting discussion. A CS
Colleague of mine who recently left EA once told me an interesting story of
EA maintaining an internal version of eaPd (or something titled along those
lines), a Pd fork that has been supposedly used as the audio engine in a
number (most? all?) of internal EA titles. That being said, please take this
story with a grain of salt as this is obviously a second-hand account.
Another very interesting observation that was made along the way was
software companies' (many of which are located in and/or cater to the
Western and/or Western-influenced culture, arguably largest consumers of
such form of entertainment) continued neglect of the importance of audio
(although as always there are exceptions, Spore potentially being one of
them; I would also add Flow to this list that even in its Flash form looks
and more importantly sounds quite impressive). This is a permeating theme, a
challenge, or as they teach us in Academia "an opportunity" of the Western,
predominantly oculocentric culture. Kidding aside, I truly look upon this as
an opportunity and am excited by the prospect of exploring this by and large
stagnant area of multimedia experience. Call me an optimist or even a
dreamer, but I think if compelling advances are made and more importantly
combined with a sane business model, industry will very likely adopt such
technologies without much hesitation and to everyone's benefit.
Best wishes,
Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
Composition, Music Technology, CCTAD, CHCI, and Art (by courtesy)
Director, Interactive Sound & Intermedia Studio
Virginia Tech
Dept. of Music - 0240
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540) 231-6139
(540) 231-5034 (fax)
ico@vt.edu
http://www.music.vt.edu/people/faculty/bukvic/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: maxmsp-bounces@cycling74.com [mailto:maxmsp-bounces@cycling74.com]
> On Behalf Of Dan
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 6:35 PM
> Subject: [maxmsp] Re: careers in Max/MSP?
>
>
> Wrong. I am in the games industry, and I am using Max. At this point in
> my life, I know myself about as well as I ever will. I also know others
> at other companies that use Max from time to time.
>
> My point isn't that it isn't being used. My point is that it isn't being
> WIDELY used, and that a job where you are doing just Max and nothing else
> would be hard to come by in the games industry.
>
> /dan
>
> Quote: barry threw wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 16:22
> ----------------------------------------------------
> > This is easy to settle.
> >
> > While you don't know anyone in the games industry using Max, I do.
> >
> > There. That wasn't so hard.
> >
> > b
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>
apalomba@austin.rr.com schrieb:
> Audio and sound are a small part of the total work that goes into
> making a video game.
And that is clearly audible. Though all kids I know listen to music
while gaming, if they are smart enough, they listen to their own music
because whats coming out of the games is so boring...
There seems to be a demand which isn't yet recognized by the producers
of games, too much focused on the visuals...
Max would be ideal to put up some algorithmic music which simply never
repeats itself in an endless loop...
Stefan
--
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com
> http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/database/soup/archives/joshs-rules-of-
> database-contracting-17253
This list is worth millions of good memories... you made my day and
remind me why I left freelance technical direction / musical
assistantship ;-)
And on the authorship of improvisation, I did with my ensemble
something I picked up from my pop producing life: I give royalty
points to the contributors of the recorded version. As the article
said: The elusiveness of the truth on this issue reflects the nature
of jazz -- a genre that emphasizes improvisation and performance, and
whose original musical expression is not easily captured in symbolic
notation.
So I now negotiate with the creators a recognition of their paternity
in a work other than notes on a page: improvisation and patch design
certainly applies here.
But hey - it is post-free-jazz after all, so it shows respect more
than anything else: they won't buy a car with their royalties !
Maybe their Max 5 upgrade though ;-)
pa
mzed schrieb:
> artist: I want some snazzy process that is like this thing.
> mzed: Oh, I just made my own piece that is a little like that, let me show you.
> artist: Great, that's perfect, ship it.
>
> And suddenly, my piece has become their piece, and it's 80% my fault.
... know this too well, some artist do appreciate it and publish it,
some do appriciate and "forget" to mention. A few appriciate and
seriously believe they've done it all alone...
I kind of ignore it, because I don't believe in the sole authorship of a
piece of art anyway. Its always a result of a bigger context with many
people involved. The piece itself is important (if its good... ;-).
Remeber when the DJ movement wanted to go away from personal cults?
Nothing has failed as that one...
I guess its because the audience insists on attaching persons to the
stories they hear, and they just grab the most visible always...
Stefan
--
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com
I agree and have brought up this topic before. I would love to be able to embed max into HTML.
Quote: JohnG wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 18:27
----------------------------------------------------
> I would LOVE to be able to do this.
>
> I've thought about switching to using PD or SuperCollider for this very reason. Despite all its flexibility Max is still far too restrictive in terms of what you can do with the final product.
>
> Quote: Bradford Garton wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 22:58
> ----------------------------------------------------
> > I wonder if max/msp would be used more widely if it could be
> > integrated into a different environment more easily. My ideal would
> > be to have an option to compile a patch into a loadable lib or bundle
> > of some kind, with 'main' inlets of some kind that could be accessed
> > from an enclosing application. Or at the very least an option to run
> > max/msp as a command-line prog with no UI. Maybe there is a way to do
> > this already?
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------
Hi,
I have done freelance max work in a variety of contexts and the
'respect' has been as varied.
I have done work where my name wasn't mentioned at all and I was the
sole creator of a generative sound design for an installation. This
blew me away because I came from a theatre and dance background where
everyone is credited. I was paid fairly, though. Was I paid to be
invisible? I had the experience that others mentioned where an artist
came with an idea and we spoke about various possibilities and the
line blurred between tech dude and collaborator... again this was an
installation and I was only credited in small print on a documentary
website, not at the opening. Again, I was paid fairly.
More recently I worked as a contractor in connection with a new media
gallery/studio and this relationship was very successful. The gallery
has members and they constantly ask the staff about ways to achieve
various multi-media projects so, what the staff did in their infinite
wisdom was create a list of 'tech/artist dudes' who can be hired as
consultants or developers or what-have-you. The gallery negotiated
terms such as money and the appropriateness of the partnership and
they also provided space to work. I did two (and a half kind of)
projects in about 6 months then I left the city. I could have counted
on at the very least a small project a few times a year not too
mention the networking spin-off.
I think what I am basically trying to say is that there is demand for
max-type work out there but the infrastructure to connect people who
want 'tech/artist dudes' with the 'tech/artist dudes' themselves is in
its infancy so going out and making work is still the best option.
However, there are more and more possibilities opening up where you
can align yourself with forward thinking/innovative institutions (like
some academic institutions and galleries and the like) and this can
result in a very fruitful and successful vocation as a 'tech/artist
dude'.
Cheers,
Carey
On Nov 8, 2007 9:45 AM, Stefan Tiedje wrote:
> mzed schrieb:
> > artist: I want some snazzy process that is like this thing.
> > mzed: Oh, I just made my own piece that is a little like that, let me show you.
> > artist: Great, that's perfect, ship it.
> >
> > And suddenly, my piece has become their piece, and it's 80% my fault.
>
> ... know this too well, some artist do appreciate it and publish it,
> some do appriciate and "forget" to mention. A few appriciate and
> seriously believe they've done it all alone...
>
> I kind of ignore it, because I don't believe in the sole authorship of a
> piece of art anyway. Its always a result of a bigger context with many
> people involved. The piece itself is important (if its good... ;-).
>
> Remeber when the DJ movement wanted to go away from personal cults?
> Nothing has failed as that one...
>
> I guess its because the audience insists on attaching persons to the
> stories they hear, and they just grab the most visible always...
>
> Stefan
>
> --
> Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
> --_____-----------|--------------
> --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
> -- _|_)----|-----()--------------
> ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
>
>
>
>
Quoting Ivica Ico Bukvic :
> Another very interesting observation that was made along the way was
> software companies' (many of which are located in and/or cater to the
> Western and/or Western-influenced culture, arguably largest consumers of
> such form of entertainment) continued neglect of the importance of audio
...
> Kidding aside, I truly look upon this as
> an opportunity and am excited by the prospect of exploring this by and large
> stagnant area of multimedia experience. Call me an optimist or even a
> dreamer, but I think if compelling advances are made and more importantly
> combined with a sane business model, industry will very likely adopt such
> technologies without much hesitation and to everyone's benefit.
There seems to be a small (but active) group of game-developers doing
work for the visually-impaired community. If you google "audio games
blind" or something like that you'll find a bunch of links. This one
seems to have a pretty good listing:
I ran across a German (I think) site a few years back that had a bunch
of downloadable games, really interesting use of the audio modality.
> There seems to be a small (but active) group of game-developers doing
> work for the visually-impaired community. If you google "audio games
> blind" or something like that you'll find a bunch of links. This one
> seems to have a pretty good listing:
>
> http://www.audiogames.net/
>
> I ran across a German (I think) site a few years back that had a bunch
> of downloadable games, really interesting use of the audio modality.
>
> brad
> http://music.columbia.edu/~brad
Cool! Many thanks for these links Brad! I did look into audioquake a while
ago and I must say it was an interesting experience. Apropos the same topic,
this past summer as part of a summer research grant we built a system which
does something similar using a large speaker array. Apart from its primary
design function(s), from a gaming perspective it enables blind people to
play a game of pong (although we've had a lot of fun with it too--perhaps
too much :-)...
Best wishes,
Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
Composition, Music Technology, CCTAD, CHCI, and Art (by courtesy)
Director, Interactive Sound & Intermedia Studio
Virginia Tech
Dept. of Music - 0240
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540) 231-6139
(540) 231-5034 (fax)
ico@vt.edu
http://www.music.vt.edu/people/faculty/bukvic/
very interesting.
perhaps some of you folks interested in raising the bar of video game sound should do what indy game designers are all doing. d.i.y.
get a small team together and design a video-game sound engine using max. perhaps use an existing game as a loose visual framework, or design your own, or just make it text based.
just something that shows that you can blend from one atmosphere to another based on the plot of the game.
maybe some triggers for various sound effects, and the ability to demonstrate sound locality.
then shop this around to some game companies. despite what's being said, game companies do spend money on the audio. somebody got paid to create the shitty techno music in this game, and royalties were paid to musicians for their songs used for that game. i think amon tobin got commissioned to do all the audio for a major release a couple of years ago.
we all know the possibilities are endless, but we should prove it to the dudes with money. and game producers do have money.
-rob
Apropos this discussion, there's an article in the latest (November)
issue of Mix magazine on "Exploring Game Sound Programs."
----
Steven M. Miller
Professor, Contemporary Music Program
College of Santa Fe
Home
SFIFEM
Atrium Sound Space
OVOS
CMP
Quote: robtherich wrote on Thu, 08 November 2007 11:45
----------------------------------------------------
i think amon tobin got commissioned to do all the audio for a major release a couple of years ago.
----------------------------------------------------
That was chaos theory.
> perhaps some of you folks interested in raising the bar of video
> game sound should do what indy game designers are all doing. d.i.y.
> get a small team together and design a video-game sound engine
> using max. perhaps use an existing game as a loose visual
> framework, or design your own, or just make it text based.
> just something that shows that you can blend from one atmosphere to
> another based on the plot of the game.
> maybe some triggers for various sound effects, and the ability to
> demonstrate sound locality.
This is great in theory, but not implementable.
Creating an engine in Max that runs on every major console,
optimized, embedded? Where do you see the ability to do this? There
is no source.
With pd it would be slightly possible, but we'd really have to think
about _why_ we are doing the engine in a patcher language. Making
something in a language just because we know it at the cost of all
other concerns is a bad idea.
The two previous game design posters were correct in their use
cases. Max in games is being used as prototyping and a sound design
tool, when it is being used. PD has some more options available due
to being able to get at the source.
b
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
1. of course it's implied that this would be a prototype/demonstration. exactly as was described by the spore developer. prototype in max, implement in an embedded pd.
2. not all games that are designed are designed to run on every console/os. indy gamers can't afford the costs for console sdk's but they are still making games, which make money(-ish).
3. your probably right. but if all we do is complain about the sound in video games, then what are we accomplishing to change it?
True.
I guess my only point was that something like that would take a lot
of time / money. Thus it is worth considering whether pd is the
correct tool for that job.
Perhaps. With Spore I guess there is one case study to learn from.
If anyone has results from how that workflow went, and can relate any
of it, it would be useful information for all of us.
b
On Nov 8, 2007, at 4:20 PM, Robert Ramirez wrote:
>
> 1. of course it's implied that this would be a prototype/
> demonstration. exactly as was described by the spore developer.
> prototype in max, implement in an embedded pd.
>
> 2. not all games that are designed are designed to run on every
> console/os. indy gamers can't afford the costs for console sdk's
> but they are still making games, which make money(-ish).
>
> 3. your probably right. but if all we do is complain about the
> sound in video games, then what are we accomplishing to change it?
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
look at PD. Pd's graphics engine is separated from the implementation.... so
easier to integrate...
On Nov 7, 2007 2:58 PM, wrote:
> I wonder if max/msp would be used more widely if it could be
> integrated into a different environment more easily. My ideal would
> be to have an option to compile a patch into a loadable lib or bundle
> of some kind, with 'main' inlets of some kind that could be accessed
> from an enclosing application. Or at the very least an option to run
> max/msp as a command-line prog with no UI. Maybe there is a way to do
> this already?
>
> I made a fun little dashboard widget a week or so ago:
>
> http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/music/dlooch.html
>
> and very much wanted to use max/msp, but I don't know how I could have
> imbedded it in the widget javascript, so I used RTcmix instead. Maybe
> using the max patch as a plugin might have worked...
>
>
> brad
> http://music.columbia.edu/~brad
>
>
Hey all, Kent and I just got accepted to give a GDC presentation on just
this topic:
On Nov 8, 2007 6:13 PM, barry threw wrote:
> True.
>
> I guess my only point was that something like that would take a lot
> of time / money. Thus it is worth considering whether pd is the
> correct tool for that job.
>
> Perhaps. With Spore I guess there is one case study to learn from.
>
> If anyone has results from how that workflow went, and can relate any
> of it, it would be useful information for all of us.
>
> b
>
> On Nov 8, 2007, at 4:20 PM, Robert Ramirez wrote:
>
> >
> > 1. of course it's implied that this would be a prototype/
> > demonstration. exactly as was described by the spore developer.
> > prototype in max, implement in an embedded pd.
> >
> > 2. not all games that are designed are designed to run on every
> > console/os. indy gamers can't afford the costs for console sdk's
> > but they are still making games, which make money(-ish).
> >
> > 3. your probably right. but if all we do is complain about the
> > sound in video games, then what are we accomplishing to change it?
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>
Congrats! That's great news. It's stuff like this that will really help bring attention to better and innovative audio in games.
Hopefully I'll be able to make it to the conference.
/dan
Quote: amcleran wrote on Fri, 09 November 2007 16:57
----------------------------------------------------
> Hey all, Kent and I just got accepted to give a GDC presentation on just
> this topic:
>
> https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6426
----------------------------------------------------
Quote: wesley.hoke@gmail.com wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 00:14
----------------------------------------------------
> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
> for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.
>
> wes
>
----------------------------------------------------
So is PD is part of Spore or was the music just made using it? Because PD is licensed under the GPL, which surely would mean that Spore would also have to be GPL to include it?
pd is not licensed under the GPL.
It is licensed under the Standard Improved BSD License.
b
On Nov 10, 2007, at 5:42 PM, John wrote:
>
> Quote: wesley.hoke@gmail.com wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 00:14
> ----------------------------------------------------
>> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
>> for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.
>>
>> wes
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> So is PD is part of Spore or was the music just made using it?
> Because PD is licensed under the GPL, which surely would mean that
> Spore would also have to be GPL to include it?
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology
San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com
Ah yeah my mistake, it's various other PD bits n bobs that are GPL.
Quote: barry threw wrote on Sat, 10 November 2007 22:12
----------------------------------------------------
> pd is not licensed under the GPL.
>
> It is licensed under the Standard Improved BSD License.
>
> b
>
> On Nov 10, 2007, at 5:42 PM, John wrote:
>
> >
> > Quote: wesley.hoke@gmail.com wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 00:14
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
> >> for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.
> >>
> >> wes
> >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > So is PD is part of Spore or was the music just made using it?
> > Because PD is licensed under the GPL, which surely would mean that
> > Spore would also have to be GPL to include it?
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------