crashes under WindowsXP

    Jul 26 2007 | 12:17 pm
    I am trying Max/MSP/Jitter for Windows XP - I have downloaded the 30-days trial - before I buy it.
    I have been playing around a little bit just for a couple of days and it already happened twice or maybe three times that it suddenly crashed without a reason.
    Well, when a program crashes it is *always* without a reason, since a program should never ever crash (it should give error messages and stops operations gently)... However in this case I mean it crashed at random moments while I was doing nothing erroneous nor even anything special, nor resource-consuming. For example doing something as trivial as clicking on a message box to edit it - and with just some super-trivial patch loaded.
    I am a little bit worried, as I don't think I am willing to pay $800 or more for a software that isn't even stable.

    • Jul 26 2007 | 12:49 pm
    • Jul 26 2007 | 2:42 pm
      > Hi, > > Save the trivial patch that crashed as txt and post it.
      It's not the patch. It's not a specific patch. I mean, there's no specific reproducible action that triggers systematically a crash.
      It just crashed at random times while doing basically nothing.
      For example this last time I had a help patch open and inactive (that is, with no metro turned on or other stuff nor anything that was "doing" anything), and on a clean patcher I created a message box and clicked on it in "unlocked" mode (so as to edit the content, NOT trigger the message, which however still wasn't connected to anything so couldn't cause anything to happen) and Max just closed, without even generating a crash report or dialog. Just closed.
      No externals installed however, just a fresh clean max/msp + jitter install.
      > If Max still > crashes, you have a problem with your hardware or with xp but > surely > not with a clean Max install.
      I don't know how you can be so sure of that. Basically you are assuming that.
      However, if there's a problem with the hardware, a stable software would detect it and generate some error message.
      You're right in that it may be Window's fault, however.
    • Jul 26 2007 | 3:07 pm
      > A program *always* crash for a reason, actually because > they're > programs.
      Yeah, obviously. There are mainly 3 reasons I can think of why a program can crash: 1) A bug in the program 2) An erroneous input or erroneous behaviour of the user 3) A malfunctioning in another software (such as the operating system) interacting with the program, or in the hardware
      However, reason (2) is a special case of reason (1), since a program should ALWAYS check for input validity, and in case of incorrect behaviour of the user should respond with error messages and such things. Indeed erroneous input is just one more kind of input. In extreme cases a software may suspend its activity, but if it crashes (and if it is not for reason 3) it is a bug by definition.
      When I said "without a reason" I meant that it was not case 2, and that's for sure, and that I don't think it's case 3, thought I cannot be 100% positive of the latter.
      99% of the times, when a program crashes, it is because of a bug of the program. Even when it is in consequence of an error condition generated outside the program (i.e. in a call to some operating system funcion or something like that), OFTEN the external part is not malfunctioning but rather correctly reporting an error that the program is not handling correctly - that's a bug. Obviously I am not saying it is the case of max in this case, as I cannot know that.
      > Max *is* stable. When it crashes, ...
      If it crashes, it is not stable. And if it crashes so often that you even have some statistics at hand, then it's quite unstable.
      > Thousands users may not be wrong.
      Thousands of users may be right, or they may be wrong.
      However, thousands of user are right/wrong saying what??
      Thousands of users are saying that they've never seen max crash? I don't discuss that. I've seen max crash, so it does crash unless I am having allucinations - which is even possible.
    • Jul 26 2007 | 3:21 pm
      Well, there are lots of reasons why Max can crash, and not all of them are Max's fault, although some of them are. If you're using 3rd party objects which don't check the validity of their input, that's not our fault. But if you're using our objects, and find a crasher, it will be fixed, assuming that you can help us to reproduce the crash.
      It might bear noting that it's relatively easy to check for all possible input in a program which is based on fixed structures. Since our users can change the order of modules more or less freely, it's kind of challenging to test every possible configuration of objects, to understate the situation a bit.
      All that said, there are lots and lots of people who use Max on Windows XP every day without crashing, so there's likely something specific to your hardware, OS or Max installation which is causing your trouble. Luckily, we have a support team in place to help out with this kind of stuff - you might want to employ their services.
      Am 26.07.2007 um 17:07 schrieb matteo sisti sette:
      >> Max *is* stable. When it crashes, ... > > If it crashes, it is not stable.
    • Jul 26 2007 | 3:38 pm
      I have been using Max on XP for years so I can attest to its stability, it works great. There is most likely some driver issue or system issue on your computer. Did you check the Event Viewer (Administrative Tools) to see if there was an error logged? Do you have any virus checking software running? Do you have the latest drivers for your hardware installed? Did you have any previous versions of Max installed?
    • Jul 26 2007 | 3:42 pm
    • Jul 26 2007 | 5:31 pm
      Am 26.07.2007 um 16:42 schrieb matteo sisti sette:
      >> If Max still >> crashes, you have a problem with your hardware or with xp but >> surely >> not with a clean Max install. > > I don't know how you can be so sure of that. > Basically you are assuming that. Well, beside using Max professionally for many projects I have been teaching Max for 6 years and I met so many people with these sort of questions, and I installed Max on many systems xp as well as osx. On some systems, especially xp I had problems but they could always be solved often with the help of this forum. They never had something to do with (clean) Max.
      One last advice: This forum is a great information source as there are many very experienced users including the people from C74 spending their time to help others. If you insist on blaming Max for the crashes instead of doing what people have told you, you might loose this source before you experienced the value of it.
    • Jul 29 2007 | 9:55 pm
      I've found Max on XP to be pretty sensitive to what audio driver I'm using on my system. With ASIO4All I had low CPU use but a lot of "random" (ie, not reproducible by following the same steps) crashing, even when doing seemingly harmless things like you say. With WDM drivers CPU use increases substantially on my system, and everything (especially GUI objects) slows down. Right now I'm using a firewire soundcard with its own ASIO drivers, and all the problems I had before went away right after I started using the new driver.
      I don't know if that will help you, but it might be something to think about. Do you see any difference if you have the dac enabled/disabled?