Don't shoot me!

    Oct 07 2008 | 2:44 pm
    Hi There I recently purchased MAX5 in the hope of expanding my musical palette. I have mainly used logic and ableton connect to lots of vintage gear. I have hit a wall with those programs. I have found that with these programs their are an abundance of tools to help you but most of the time they get in the way. I have also began to hear lots of these effects/tricks used all over the place. This led me to purchase Max in hope of designing my own interface not a complex one, far from it, just one that enable me to control exactly what i tell it to do. I am going through the tutorials but am getting very confused and trapped within the lessons. I will read a couple and it sticks. Ill return to them and it makes no sense. Also when you are asked to make a patch in the tutorials I just cant get them to work. I wish there were more examples (within the examples) to show how they look and work. I really want to get into but can't afford any tuition and there doesn't appear to be a noob section or tips and tricks like Ableton website which would be handy. Apologies for my lack of understanding but i have so many ideas of things i want to make but dont know where to start. If any one has any thoughts that would be great.
    Tom D

    • Oct 07 2008 | 3:22 pm
      Hi Tom,
      You've made a winning choice with Max 5.
      One of the main ways that I got my head around building patches in max(apart from the tutorials ((which everyone will now tell you to go and do with particular venom, (((no names mentioned))) was to go through each objects help file by typing in the name of an object (or just using the list that drops down when you begin typing) and alt-clicking on it.
      For me the best way to learn was to just start building things and after a while you'll remember certain objects and what they can and can't do, and along the way figure out ways of working.
      also download other peoples patches and explore them. this will enlighten you to how other people have built similar things to what you're after out of max.
      Again, tutorials and individual object help files are a winning combination when mixed with examining other peoples patches.
      once you've built a few things and gone through the tutorials you'll go back to the things you've made and instantly be able to improve them. Stick with it and explore is what I'm trying to say I guess.
      Chris Muir's examples helped me a lot (I'm sure he'll pass on the weblink that I've forgotten)
      good luck and enjoy Tim
    • Oct 07 2008 | 3:27 pm
      I think that if you work slowly, you should be able to figure out the tutorials by yourself. Take them one at a time, and be sure to study all the objects that you come across. Don't just glance over them, cos you'll have to return later. (What does [route bang] do when you send it a bang? What does [+] do when you send it a list?). Open tutorial patches and see if you can change things around or add functionality without breaking everything.
      After you finished the tutorials, you should start experimenting yourself. This may be a bit more difficult, since you have little/no experience with designing patches. There are some other sources, such as the examples folder in your max directory, but there's great examples all over this board as well. It is very helpful when there's someone near you that knows max, but asking online is a decent alternative (do search yourself first, tho). For some bigger projects, you could take a look at the user pages on this site as well.
      Building your own engine and interface to replace old gear is surely going to take a while. Be prepared to start over from near scratch once or twice, when you realise your architecture can't do everything you wanted, or everything has become a mess. Good luck!
    • Oct 07 2008 | 3:43 pm
      ! 2nd the usefulness of help files & use this list for specific problems
      also after a few tutorials when u get the general idea u can skip around to tutorials that seem more interesting
      having an idea of what u want max to do is good motivation but kinda gets in the way of learning how to patch
      good luck & hang in there u will be greatly rewarded
    • Oct 07 2008 | 4:20 pm
      Hey Thanks for the responses just get a bit lost and of the track and feels like nothing creative is getting done but i guess i need to go through that to make something of my own. where can i get other peoples patches from? Is it just by searching the forum or is there a dedicated area?
      Tom D
    • Oct 07 2008 | 4:31 pm
      chris muir's examples:
      also just peruse the forums for attachments and pasted text patches people post all sorts of techniques and advice for people struggling with problems you'll definitely come up against.
      They will also, after getting your head round them and exploring them, give you inspiration for things you'll want to try...
      Have fun
    • Oct 07 2008 | 6:57 pm
      I used to have the same trouble. I found instantly that modifying other people's patches, help-files, and examples got me further than just reading the tutorials alone. Many people have alot of ego about reading the tutorials, it's true, but they are still valuable. Unfortunately, people don't realize that not everyone learns the same way so just reading the tutorials alone doesn't always help everyone in the same way(they are certainly NOT perfect and i think even the full-time employees of C74 will agree). Still, go through every tutorial so that, at the very least, when people ask if you've done so you can say yes and then ask specific questions about them. Personally, I've found the tutorials a bit too simplistic at times and written in a much more distracting way than say, the Ableton tutorials which seem to guide people tangentially to a more wholistic understanding. But then again, Max is quite a beast so it's likely to have all too much to cover in mere tutorials. Anyways, to sum up, definitely go through the tutorials, but also take a look here within the application distribution:
      You'll find modifying those examples will be a really great way to get introduced to techniques/tricks that would otherwise be glossed over from looking at the tutorials alone. Anyways, that's just my opinion and take on it. Feel free to post a patch you're working on, too, and people will guide you to things you might consider much faster. Best of luck.
    • Oct 07 2008 | 7:58 pm
    • Oct 07 2008 | 9:38 pm
      The best would be that you meet with a Max user in your town. Maybe let the list know roughly where you are, and it's likely a guy reading the forum could contact you offline, and you could have a patch running around a drink or something. J-F.
      > I am going through the tutorials but am getting very confused and trapped > within the lessons. I will read a couple and it sticks. > Ill return to them and it makes no sense. > If any one has any thoughts that would be great.
    • Oct 08 2008 | 9:41 am
      Duncan Sylvester schrieb: > Ill return to them and it makes no sense. > Also when you are asked to make a patch in the tutorials I just cant > get them to work.
      If you are at the tutorials, which is very appreciated, and you get stuck, even if it seems very dumb, just tell which one doesn't work for you. There are some things we are all used to it, but you need to have an idea of the whole concept. For example, in MSP, you have to switch on audio to hear anything, its off by default. Also you have to choose the drivers you want to use (it will remember them though...). If you have a big studio setup, and just throw Max at it, you might come across some other traps, like having multiple Midi outs, maybe its sending to a different output than you think it should...
      If you provide us with details of your setup (Mac or Win, interface...) and what tutorial doesn't work for you, or what doesn't make sense for you we're happy to help. And have no fear to ask, as you are doing the tutorials (which some other think is avoidable... ;-). It might enhance these parts of the introduction into Max for the future. It is impossible to know all possible traps for beginners, if you came across one its good to know...
      And start with the pure Max tutorials, wait with MSP till you got the basic ideas into your head. It shouldn't be too hard if you are used to analog gear, its just patching boxes together...
      You are welcome, and happy patching...
      -- Stefan Tiedje------------x------- --_____-----------|-------------- --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()------- -- _|_)----|-----()-------------- ----------()
    • Oct 08 2008 | 3:10 pm
      I think you could benefit from changing your expectation of results from Max. Max is not like Ableton or Logic. You won't be able to just dive right in and start making every patch you could possibly conceive of. This is a direct consequence of the fact that Max is more flexible than Ableton or Logic. With increased flexibility comes increased complexity.
      Max is a programming language. Ableton and Logic are souped-up sequencers.
      Give yourself a month of intensely going through the tutorials and help files, and experimenting with objects. After that month, then re-evaluate where you are with your capabilities. If even then you can't wrap your head around it, then maybe Max isn't for you. However, I think it's more likely that after a month you will feel 1000% more comfortable with programming patches in Max.
      You won't learn max in 3 days, but after a month you should be comfortable with it. Even after 10 years, I'm still finding new ways to do things in max...
    • Oct 08 2008 | 3:46 pm
      I really want to crack it cause I dont want to be put off as Ill be stuck in apple/ableton preset mode forever.
    • Oct 08 2008 | 5:57 pm
      swieser1 wrote: >You won't learn max in 3 days, but after a month you should be >comfortable with it. Even after 10 years, I'm still finding new >ways to do things in max...
      ya, me too.
      Tom D, don't get discouraged, it takes a little while(took me a good 2 months before i created something i liked and then about 2 years before I created something i felt like sharing... but that's just my experience, not everyone's is the same, yours might happen faster). you will definitely feel frustrated at times, that's always a sign that you're unwilling to be bound by the limitations that have restricted you before. you're last post has the exact right attitude. not that i'm some expert on this, but be patient with yourself and eventually, you WILL be glad you decided to take the red-pill ;)
    • Oct 08 2008 | 7:53 pm
      Hi Would just like to thank you all for the replies and encouragement. I guess on forums it can be tempting to pick on the new kid. It seems like their are a lot of helpful people with constructive advice.
      Tom D
    • Oct 08 2008 | 8:46 pm
      Peter Ostry wrote: > Tom, I understand you very well. Reading all the tutorials makes no sense in my opinion.
      I can kind of tell where you stopped reading from watching your posts. :-)
    • Oct 10 2008 | 10:47 pm