I'll only say it once, then I'm done (evolution /devolution)
I remember reading an interview from David Zicarelli when max 5 was coming out. He was so proud on how the look of the new UI would finally help new users to differentiate more easily the difference between [message] and [objects] . Well that went out the window in Max7. It's truely hard to see the difference between message/attrui/ objects/number and flonum in large patches. Moreover taking out the "outlining" make things even more confusing when objects like attrui are nicely align. Ableton is Ableton and Max is Max. Always enjoyed (Max)ine’s more feminine look
Anyways,
I've been teaching max in colleges and at several art galleries for a few quite years now and i know this will be a nightmare for new students.
As a more experienced max user, the 1st thing my brain does when I look into someone else’s patch, is to categories and priorities modules. An experience user can quickly grasp and isolate the important objects that make the patch from the secondary ones. For a new user the topography of all objects are all nearly the the same.
The only request I had for Max7 was a new UI that would help this by accentuating the object's complexity/flexibility with a color scheme. “Having a color scheme hierarchy to differentiate complexe to more simple ones. (i.e. [i ] & [gate] vs. [jit.movie] [counter ] [groove~]
Again, to the eye of a new user they allhave the same Strength. Now with Max7 , it has gone from ok to real real bad.
Sorry I had to say it. I work with Max every single day and ...
Yes yes, shut up and just change the color scheme and save as template.
Anyways, had to say it.
To clarify , it's not even a question of taste but efficiency and clarity
Here a little example
To end on a good note, thanks again to the cycling74 team for putting out the best software in the world. Can't wait for Max 8's new UI.
The attached image is simply a wretched example of patching no matter which version you're using. Just sayin'.
this is a fair observation - i was checking out max 7 tonight and there were a few points where i had to do a double-take to see what was an object and what was a message. Id hardly label it err 'wretched', but i did like the easy differentiation in max 6.
løl // deja.vu
circa: 7 yrs prev - http://meta.am/data/interface.02.jpg
7yrs ago seemed to be bitchin' more about general aesthetics not actual usability.
Basically i suggest C74 stop focussing on changing UI's and just put new possibilities with existing ones and simply add they're powerful magical new stuff. In the end Max is about developing great ideas from great minds and putting it out there ,not fighting with the tool itself.
Building things that work and represent what is in your head is already complex enough, no need to fight with the tools. things must flow.
A great tool (I've been using it since Max 4)to do that was developed that (should already part of Max by default) is nathanael's maxtoolbox https://github.com/natcl/maxtoolbox
quick, efficient and straight to the point, has nothing with new UI looks
Presently not working Max7
aesthetics = actual usability
other than that, agree w your post.
I agree with yours
So you're ignoring the new pathcing mechanics…?
And my point earlier was that your example patch was already wonky looking in Max 6.
I do agree that number boxes should have an option for a border.
dude there is nothing in my patch it can't be bad patching, if the wires are showing it's because the screenshot was taken in edit mode "you know that",
this is an example that demonstrates that having everything with no outline and the same color is a nightmare.
And it is in my large patches and will be a nightmare to teach. And as for the new Ascii quick patching , I 've been using a wonderful tool called max toolbox since max 4. I cannot possibly patch more efficiently that with that tool. They should of just taken his tool.
https://github.com/natcl/maxtoolbox
as for a zoom in where you mouse is
Anyways, if you enjoy this , good for you man
cheers
Ha ha ! I didn't remember that interview about Max 5's UI making easier to distinct object boxes from message boxes ! That's a kindof "Back to the future".
I must admit to finding that the new tan/brown look is very dreary. The rectangular objects seem to have regressed back to Max4 or even PD.
I haven't been able to find a comprehensive list of what's new in Max7 and for the most part, it seems like eye candy (the results of which are debatable), some patching enhancements and a few new objects, of which the audio stretching ones will actually be useful for my projects.
Having said all that, I use patchers far more than I edit them and what I'm looking for is improvements in reliability, reduced CPU utilization and so forth so that I can squeeze more performance out of the product. I don't know yet whether the new scheduling approach around event triggering will help and I'm certainly concerned with the run time licensing scheme.
So still trying to figure out what's good about Max7 for me!
not sure why folks keep saying they can't find a list of what's new:
https://cycling74.com/max7/
Max7 does seem to have improvements under the hoop, that result in less cpu usage. And the video playback improvements are also very welcome. I even think the new patcher window is an improvement. But I also agree with Phiol that cycling went a bit too far (going backwards) with the hard to differentiate object/ message box/ attrui. I think he makes a good point about readability and learning for novices.
The white text on dark is fine with me, differentiation between what's on screen is very welcome. Maybe even letting users define how they want it. So that you can specify your own color scheme for a receive, send and so on...
@Rob That link is for the "Please buy me now, look how cool I am" crowd. I'm looking for the detailed list of new objects, fixed objects and so forth, like we see in every release.
This page might have some of the info you're looking for: http://cycling74.s3.amazonaws.com/support/version_7_0_0.html
Thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for. Disappointed though that there's no mention of fixes for the VST issues that have prevented me from moving to Max 6
@DHJDHJDHJ I would recommend that you give it a try, because it's likely that not everything is listed in the link above due to the rewrite of some many things, particularly in vst~. It's really hard to be exhaustive.
Emmanuel, while on the subject, do you perhaps have, like, internal logs of your changes? I'd really looove to see something exhaustive.
Okay, about the original topic. I can't help but feel that Max7 looks... classy as fuck, to be honest. It harks back to max4, with the horizontal lines and the squareness, and I really love that.
@meta yeah I remember that debate vividly. If anything it scares me that the "why we will not use" thing started *7* years ago?!? WTF?
I use patchers far more than I edit them…
…and I’m certainly concerned with the run time licensing scheme.
Those two statements together seem rather odd from what I understand of the new "runtime" functionality. Meaning there is no more runtime and you can use patches (and even edit, just not save) in Max 7 indefinitely using the demo mode.
Seems like the "run time licensing scheme" would be *exactly* what you need since you use patches more than you edit them.
@wetterberg Okay, about the original topic. I can’t help but feel that Max7 looks… classy as fuck, to be honest. It harks back to max4, with the horizontal lines and the squareness, and I really love that.
Again, this post was not to bitch about the looks. I don't really care about the look (yes I like the "look" of Max6 better)
I am talking about the mind set of, "where will the water leak naturally. It will go where there are crevasses. Same with electricity. It will go to the 1st ground(-) it finds."
How do my eyes see Max7 with no efforts,(again not my personal taste), well as something very confusing.
Even look @ the way I visually space my sentences into many paragraphs when posting in this forum , even this thread.
Max7 for is like a GREAT book with no spaced out paragraphs. Just one big chunk.
I'm not talking about the the font really. Just functionality.
It does sound contradicting but I think you guys know what I mean.
thanks to all of you guys for your passion.
phiol
Meaning that I'm less concerned about improvements to the editing process than features that will let my patchers run more efficiently
I use patchers far more than I edit them…
Because I was concerned about modal warnings stopping Max until I acknowledged the warning, because I'm concerned about bugs in an authentication scheme that could blow up Max during a live performance, because I'm bothered about unnecessary code running intermittently, particularly as it is not contributing to the functionality.
…and I’m certainly concerned with the run time licensing scheme
I've been using scale spacing quite a lot...
@Phiol ;-)
@phiol - That patch makes my head hurt, can't imagine patching with objects so close together
My concern is same as PHIOL's. That is, the update to the UI in Max7 makes my old patches not useable. A complete re-working of their UI would need to happen. And that is a very disappointing thing for me. And now that all .maxpat files automatically open with Max7 (which can't be changed for some reason!?!?!?) we have to right-click them and "open with" max6.
So, the new look for max7 is not at all a problem for designing new patches. It's just opening previous version patches that is upsetting.
But of course, thank you cycling for all the other great updates!
Joe
@ Mike s : I agree, only cause it's max 7's UI and there is no outline etc, And let me assure you that it your eyes and not your head that hurts , same thing in max6 would be cruise control. pina colada on the beach my friend. ;-)
phiol
Look Mom! Max 4 is back as my default template :-)
indeed.
since we had been briefed by staff members that you can make your own colorschemes, i dont understand this part of the discussion any longer.
-110
@Roman, because it's not just colorschemes that is the problem. You yourself mentioned this already in another thread. That of sizes being different.
Here's a simple example:
Open this patch in max6 and in max7 and compare.
I absolutely understand that there are heaps of people who may not have this problem due to their previous UI designs not clashing in ways like this with the new version of max. But I am here talking about it because I am affected by it (a lot!).
I'd like to second what Roald mentioned somewhere, I'm in support of Cycling 74 and the continuity and growth of Max Msp wholeheartedly as demonstrated by purchasing the upgrade immediately (as I have always done) and I mean no disrespect to anybody about this. None at all. I'm just saying: "Hey! Max 7 has broken the usability of a lot of my patches! I am sad about this!" and I'm clearly not the only one.
I will leave you all in peace now and go do some work before Raja comes and eats me alive.
Joe
@JOEMAN
Yes, that is how I feel but you said it better.
@WETTERBERG we have logs of course. But they are for internal use. Most of them would be pretty useless for a human eye ;-)
haha, I bet. Honestly, I think your "external" changelogs are pretty great already, come to think of it. I think what I'd love is to just have a good sit-down with Sam and have him walk me through everything new in Max7. Without the "flair", so to speak. That'd be pretty baller.
Oh, and I'll leave this here from a different thread, from when someone bumped the Max5 debacle thread. Note the date on it, so that no one takes it personally. :) You're all awesome. (and some of you are just plainly *wrong*, of course :P)
yeah, it's funny if you open max 4 patches in 7 and zoom in to 125% or scale they look really nice, i think! 6 doesn't look good at all to me imported. that beige. if you open up 6 and copy/paste to 7 the styles won't get changed as if you'd opened a file and it's easier to adjust from there, i think.
i find (with tweaking) 7 is mostly way easier to visually parse than 6 because you can use the smaller, shape and edge cues, and mostly ignore the boxes, it just takes time tweaking so the shapes and edges stand out! the main thing for me is making the patcher background darker so the "object sandwich" is more obvious.
changing the object background gradient to black makes message boxes stand out nicely as well, i think. making the dial black when unturned, with a lighter indicator level i find a lot better. with 6 i had to use more color processing, i think too much round and low contrast kinda made stuff blend in. too bad you can't make styles default though...
i wish there was a way to make the toggle box "x' transparent when off, without screwing everything else up on a global level. imo off should be off. x and lighter x i think is just not a very good method of communication of a binary state. toggle could be more clear maybe if inactive it was two filled in triangles, like an hourglass, and the lines of the "x" appeared inside it as a different color when active.
going back to the unlocked bang look in 6 at all times would work better for me because it was already nice and iconic with those i/o lines framing the circle. i don't want ugly little bricks.
overall i like it, i think it's the best so far...i like how much snap patching has improved! i never used it in 6, felt like it got in the way really. and z/shift+z! using trackpad and keyboard shortcuts simultaneously is much better now, i think.
for the next version i think they should look at the pen and ink stuff from goya or durer, so much lushness made up of visual "noise", dots and lines. or look at some mobius/giraud or bernie wrightson comics! that stuff is so good at envisioning super dense visual data that is not only easy to parse (easier than reality - you could count blades of grass!), but enjoyable.
with dithering in computer graphics ui they (accidentally?) got right way back when. pseudo realism is crap, but flatness is like going back to 60s computer monitors.lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iiQtdXMnBg
@jonah Here is an example of a patch that is not mine.
It a patch for parsing Leap Motion data.
Now tell me objectively, with no effort , not close up thinking and analyzing the patch object what they do,
nothing, just look and tell me which one is clearer.
Max6 is clearer. Our eyes can isolate and differenciate toggles from objects from messages.
Look @ max 7. These 3 objects look the same
Again this is not my patch.
Just sayin'
borderlines would solve all problems, let's hope they are back in Max 7.0.1
@Phiol: good example patch. The Max6 patch is much easier to read. The difference is night and day.
Just read the colour schemes option I am Colour blind...
Still seems like too many Options, I agree with your other comment
Until this is sorted, I ain't touchin 7. No way