In Regards to Pluggo
Now that we have the answer from C74 on the future of pluggo (or lack there of), I just want to ask a few questions regarding this sad article: https://cycling74.com/story/2009/5/14/101259/594
First, how much would someone who wanted to use Pluggo for Max5 have to pay to make pluggo "cost effective"? In the other thread, the idea was tossed around for charging for pluggo, due to the number of man hours the transition to Max 5 has seemed to demand. The article states that pluggo is not cost effective (which is understandable, granted it was free before), so how much would it have to cost to make it cost effective?
Also, in an attempt to reduce the number of man hours, what if pluggo was suitable for only a single plug in specification rather than three, or only a single platform rather than two? While not ideal, a wisely chosen specification and platform could appease the large majority of customers who've been affected by pluggo's dissolution.
Just some friendly questions.
just a guess, but I think you're better off doing a startup, becoming an official developer, writing code that just keeps track of the parameters, presets and then just sends the audio out an intermediate server like jack, then that server could send out audio, bring it back and send it back in
protools audio--->UpstartRTAS------>Upstart.app----->Upstart.in~
Upstart.out~---->upstart.app------>upstartRTAS----->protools
Then your UpstartRTAS, UpstartVST and UpstartAu can all be relatively tiny and easy to maintain, you have one central app to manage and it can be compatible with everything under the sun via jack, sound flower or TCP/IP
not really a cycling74 thing. I'd donate a couple hundred bucks to see what comes out.
ComfortableInClouds wrote on Thu, 14 May 2009 17:41Also, in an attempt to reduce the number of man hours, what if pluggo was suitable for only a single plug in specification rather than three, or only a single platform rather than two? While not ideal, a wisely chosen specification and platform could appease the large majority of customers who've been affected by pluggo's dissolution.
If you're going to go this far I'd say Max for Live is already the logical next step beyond what you're talking about and that doesn't even take into account the fact that Live is multi-platform. Granted Live itself is the missing piece of the puzzle.
I have mixed feelings about all this because I can understand being upset if you don't already use Live and have no intentions of switching. But I *do* use Live so I'm actually pretty happy about this development.
...but if i am not using live, i am left with fewer options. period.
maybe thats part of the changing of the guards...
am i the only one, who has the feeling, that the slashing of the list coincides with a different signal2noise ratio in postings here?
(oh man, do i feel old writing such things...)
all in all, pure data starts looking more and more attractive
h
kochhw wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 01:20all in all, pure data starts looking more and more attractive
and Supercollider's ability to export as plugin as well... though it looks a little more convoluted...
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Thu, 14 May 2009 23:55protools audio--->UpstartRTAS------>Upstart.app----->Upstart.in~
Upstart.out~---->upstart.app------>upstartRTAS----->protools
one good thing about this idea is that you could use Soundflower to do this (until they bin it as well) Just use simple sends and returns and interapplication midi to control. not as easy, but more flexible.
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 01:51kochhw wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 01:20all in all, pure data starts looking more and more attractive
and Supercollider's ability to export as plugin as well... though it looks a little more convoluted...
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Thu, 14 May 2009 23:55protools audio--->UpstartRTAS------>Upstart.app----->Upstart.in~
Upstart.out~---->upstart.app------>upstartRTAS----->protools
one good thing about this idea is that you could use Soundflower to do this (until they bin it as well) Just use simple sends and returns and interapplication midi to control. not as easy, but more flexible.
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
Or, use wormhole: http://plasq.com/wormhole
"Can I use Wormhole2 to send audio from application to application on the same computer?
A. Yes, that is possible as every modern operating system has a network loopback device, making it possible to send network packets from one application to another. However, you still have to deal with network latency when using Wormhole2 on just one machine. As a matter of fact the network latency is worse with just one machine as its network stack has to deal with both sending and receiving."
VST and AU.
Well, this sucks!
Anyway, I've been using REAPER as my DAW since v. 1 and it has ReaRoute which allows me to route a huge number of channels of audio between Max and REAPER, like Rewire, but it seems to work better. There's probably a lot more overhead than if I'd just been able to export my patches as .dlls and run them as plug-ins within REAPER but I guess I'm going to have to stick with this method indefinitely.
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a "proper DAW" to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a "live sequencing instrument" (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the "performance practice" side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary...
stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 14:29tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
...because it was never envisioned as a "proper DAW" to begin with.
The only thing I can say is that it sadly shows in sound quality. Take a soundfile, bounce it back with a clean reverb, and check the lost in resolution...
anyway, I don't want to start and anti-Live flame thread, I wish them the best, but I think it is at least as limited as the DAWs, but in its own way. I am happy that some people find it useful, and very disappointed that it has been chosen as the only one supported by Cycling.
Anyone has good experience with this:
sonicbirth.sourceforge.net
pa
Who told you that we have to stick with the stupid Ableton Live this is not a program for serious composers it is only for loop makers,
dance e.t.c.
You should have made something like Reaktor that you can built a patch into the plugin in any platform.
I have Ableton Live this program is not for serious composer it does not have score nothing you just play loops yeah very serious.
You should have collaborated with Logic, Cubase, DP, they are far more serious programs than Ableton Live.
Shame on you.
shame on you lol
wtf?
I'm bummed as I have no plans whatsoever on using Live. I've used pluggo on MANY albums and soundtracks in DP for the last 10 years or so. Luckily I'm still on a 10.4 g5 for recording and sequencing so I can still get some more mileage aout of pluggo. Some other alternatives to max/pluggo are Plogue Bidule and Reaktor. I use Bidule all the time for hosting VIs on separate machines and love it. Its also a great real time modular patching environment and runs well as a plug in but with a bit more of a CPU hit then Pluggo. Its cross platform and also cheap, around 75 bux. I wonder why a tiny company like Plogue can stay on top of cross platform plug in compatibility and slightly less tiny C74 can't. I've always been a champion of C74 but I think this decision of theirs blows and is a disrespect for a large chunk of their user base who rely on pluggo as part of their tool set. Oh well.....
yea, it's funny how Bidule, Reaktor, and Supercollider are all able to export as plug ins, and yet Max, which began this whole modular thing and, thus has a significant head start on all those programs, can't.
Max is an amazingly powerful tool, but it needs to be used in conjunction with a DAW. pluggo allowed this to be realized easily, with only a minute CPU hit. now what are Max users supposed to do short of dropping $500 on a program they don't really want or need?
Perhaps it's time to start learning Reaktor.
Bidule and Reaktor cannot export as plug-ins - they can run as plug-ins, which is different.
Max running in a plug in shell is basically what M4L is right???
That would be fine for me as I'm not a plug in developer
Anyone want to chime in on Reaktor? I've never really used it.
ComfortableInClouds wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 12:02
Max is an amazingly powerful tool, but it needs to be used in conjunction with a DAW.
i'm sorry to even step in to this, but that comment shows how little you know about max and their user base. the capabilities of max go far beyond audio applications.
max is fantastic for performance, for sound design, for generation of midi, but it lacks the basic functions of a DAW. if you think that statement is untrue, please tell me why exactly (rather than simply offering criticism without any explanation as you just did).
what do you mean exactly by the capabilites of max go far beyond audio applications? do you mean visual applications? max is a programming environment for media, if there is some other function max can (efficently and effectively) serve, please enlighten me as to what it might. perhaps more importantly, how many people actual use it for those other uses?
dimitris108 wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 10:56Who told you that we have to stick with the stupid Ableton Live this is not a program for serious composers it is only for loop makers,
dance e.t.c...
I have Ableton Live this program is not for serious composer it does not have score nothing you just play loops yeah very serious.
Um, that is absolute horseshit. It really depends on your work flow and aesthetics. You seem to be equating "serious composers" with people who use scores and do not use loops. Some might argue that scores are older, outdated approaches to composing. Also, repetition (loops) are, and have been (dating back to written sources of Gregorian chant), one of the main ways form and coherence is created in music. I use Live, as well as max/msp, dp, reaktor, peak, finale. I find Live one of the most useful compositonal programs for my work flow. I create experimental type music, not dance music. Anyway, your comments are extremely ignorant and as I said before, horseshit.
Mister know it all a program that you can not create even your keyboard shortcut in Ableton Live this is a horseshit haha.
Very serious program.
How many sequencers have you used in your life tell us because I think you just used Ableton Live that's why you should not have an opinion yourself.
You dont consider score part of music it is outdated that means that I am not talking to a musician.
About Loops yes it is not musical because they repeat themselves exactly the same it is not the same when a choir or instrument repeat something. The timbre changes my friend...
I think before you post something you have to know what is music and also make your own shorcuts in Ableton Live and then talk about music and program.
Let somebody else talk who knows mister know it all...
note to self - be more polite
dimitris108 wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 14:21Mister know it all a program that you can not create even your keyboard shortcut in Ableton Live this is a horseshit haha.
Very serious program.
How many sequencers have you used in your life tell us because I think you just used Ableton Live that's why you should not have an opinion yourself.
You dont consider score part of music it is outdated that means that I am not talking to a musician.
About Loops yes it is not musical because they repeat themselves exactly the same it is not the same when a choir or instrument repeat something. The timbre changes my friend...
I think before you post something you have to know what is music and also make your own shorcuts in Ableton Live and then talk about music and program.
Let somebody else talk who knows mister know it all...
To answer your questions:
I never tried, nor had the need, to create my own keyboard shortcuts - sounds like a good option Ableton should add.
As I mentioned I also use DP.
I said "some might argue that scores are older, outdated..." I personally do not use scores for my own music, but some do. I never said they are "not part of music".
Digital files do repeat exactly, true, but there is nothing inherently unmusical about that.
As far as my musical credentials, I have a Doctorate in music theory, have been widely published in peer reviewed music journals, and have numerous releases out of my own compositions on a variety of labels.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that you should re-evaluate your own understanding about what "composing" is before making silly comments. There are many different types of composers and music out there, and technique defined (using a score is "serious") or genre defined (dance music is not "serious") approaches towards music is hierarchical and narrow minded.
Sorry comfortableinclouds, this has nothing to do with the original post. I'll stop:)
Out of interest, in relation to the OP's post, how much would people wishing to use Pluggo with max 5 in their sequencer pay to be able to do so?
I'd really like to be able to get Pluggo with my DAW of choice (cubase4 on mac), but even a VST of max5 would be nice in a similar way to how reaktor works.
the_man361 wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 21:34Out of interest, in relation to the OP's post, how much would people wishing to use Pluggo with max 5 in their sequencer pay to be able to do so?
I'd really like to be able to get Pluggo with my DAW of choice (cubase4 on mac), but even a VST of max5 would be nice in a similar way to how reaktor works.
Honestly I'd pay the price of Max5 over again (300 or 400 US?) for the ability to make plugins that can run in a runtime style VST. IE, unlike Reaktor, I'd like to be able to give/sell my VSTs without the user needing to own a copy of MaxVST or whatever it may be.
When I went to ircam, someone made a little joke about max users black turtleneck attitude. I laughed. Have never been like that. It's a little out of touch sure but after reading some of these posts...
Can we have that back please?
Well this is a real kick in the teeth. Only bought Max on the premise that Pluggo would be coming soon. Everybody said it would eventually, I even emailed Cycling74 before I purchased to check and they said it would be in the pipeline soon but they couldn't give a date.
So, I'm screwed. Was using Synthmaker which isn't a patch on Max, but if Max isn't ever going to have an export facility I don't think it's worth me hanging around, no matter how great it is, it just doesn't have the main ingredient for me.
What to do now... dilemma. Maybe it might be worth learning to code from scratch..
With this announcement at the same time as Max4Live, C74 effectively tells anyone not using Ableton Live to f*ck off. No matter what their future plans are - this is what they are communicating to their customers right now.
A great chunk of C74's resources will be put to hard work chasing this tight integration with a constantly upgraded Live. This was just how Microsoft finally killed off any competition in office-applications in the 90's - competition were forced to spend every resource chasing the ever expanding plugin-api rather than developing/refining their offering.
I have tried Live. The very controlling workflow wasnt for me. The lack of multichannel/surround mixing wasnt for me. The grainy sound quality of complex mixes wasnt for me. The automation is awkward. The severe tilt towards loop-music wasnt for me. The limited support for external hardware wasnt for me. The included basic plugins was not good enough for me (they are optimized for one special type of music). Probably I am just an oldfashioned type who happens to like experimenting with new music that is not techno or looping. Not "modern" enough right
The vibe coming out of C74 says they see me as a second class customer.
Fun topic !!! ouch !!! and some nice Ableton Live bashing !! Sorry guys I have to dissagree with the 'Live' is not for 'real musician' vibe!!!!!!!!! what is this; 'Software racism' !!!
As far as Pluggo it probably was not as popular as it should have been !! I think they should give MAX/MSP a pluggify option
ongo73 wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 08:35 Sorry guys I have to dissagree with the 'Live' is not for 'real musician' vibe!!!!!!!!! what is this; 'Software racism' !!!
Please let's keep the -ism out of this discussion, and let's stay polite. I do not like Live for all the very good, rational reasons stated here:
ca4 wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 08:13The very controlling workflow wasnt for me. The lack of multichannel/surround mixing wasnt for me. The grainy sound quality of complex mixes wasnt for me. The automation is awkward. The severe tilt towards loop-music wasnt for me.
you might like it for other very good reasons and I respect you and your music. I might even have bought your album...
My point is that by choosing only one DAW, C74 has put a significant pool of their users in the bin. I am now considering switching a whole university toward pd and sc, which means 60+ licenses, plus 80 students per year not being part of what is a lovely community.
I'll probably start a blog on my conversion process, as I have been coding Max since 1992, MSP since 1997 and Pluggo since the free version that came with MSP... my learning curve will be hard, I might even stick to C74 because I'm too old to adapt
Peace out
pa
I absolutely agree with pierre-alexandre and ca4.
What is definitely strange is that the decisions made by c74 this year go against their base users in any ways :
- hello kitty look and feel while most max users are a bunch of black dressed noisy dudes or high-tech geeks that don't care about fanciness for different reasons. This is an exagerated stereotype, of course, but you see what i mean.
- death of the mailing list, which was the very spine of a precious community
- death of pluggo and worse, a love affair with the most commercially used software which is the absolute opposite of what base users would use as a software for composing. If you want to do electro-disco-looping, you'll use Live of course, but max users are max users because they do something else than that and that's why they've learned this tool. I don't mean one is better than the other, don't start to troll me here, i just say they're just VERY different.
Taking care of the new generation of max users which actually use max AND Live together, build their arduinomes and their own reactables, while leaving the base users aside won't really help much in terms of business at the end i think...
f.e
f.e wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 10:47Taking care of the new generation of max users which actually use max AND Live together, build their arduinomes and their own reactables, while leaving the base users aside won't really help much in terms of business at the end i think...
I'm sure it's not that simple. Since I use Max and Live together with monomes, Jitter, Processing and so on you presumably consider me one of this new generation. I should perhaps be flattered: I've been using Max for nearly 20 years and actually started the Max mailing list (when we had one - let's not go there) sometime around 1992.
So exactly what *is* a "base user"? Clearly I'm not one. Or perhaps I'm only a base user when I'm doing ambisonic gallery installations, and a "new user" when I'm on stage?
In any case, I think it's pretty clear why Pluggo has been killed: David's article pretty much sums it up, as does all the careful "here be dragyns" technical text in the VST building documentation. I think there's going to be lot of fallout here, and I think Cycling will suffer in some ways, but they didn't really have much choice.
Whether the launch of Max4Live will lead to a dumbed-down user community - probably, but - hey - that's been happening ever since AOL was attached to the Arpanet. It's up to folks like you (and, who knows, me) to keep the bar held high.
Hi there,
I work (and earn money) for more than five years with Max/MSP as a musical assistant. I started working in the contemporary music scene with "serious" composers. Now I work more and more with theater companies (with technicians, composers and musicians). This work that was centered on music is now going in very different directions : music, video, light design, stage design, robotic...
In my every day work, I develop max/pd standalones for complex and dedicated plays or installation and pluggo plug-ins for simple nonstandard effects.
I can assure you that a lot of people I'm working with use live, not because of the disco-techno-looping facilities it features but because live fits their needs of syncing the music, the events with the stage, the actors...
You can't deny the fact that live has introduced an new way to make/produce/organize/compose/perform music even if doesn't fit everyone's needs (I doesn't fit all mines, but who uses only one software to compose ?).
In can also assure you that these people are more and more interested in max/msp and pure data because there are lots of things that live or every other DAWs can't do.
When Max5 was announced, I wasn't a big fan of the round-cornered, hello kitty look as you like to call it. But I must admit that it is now easier for me to present my work and learn max/msp to other. Max5 appears to be less a high-tech geek tool than it used to be. I'm also more productive with max5.
For all this reasons, I'm really excited about Max4Live and at the same time disappointed by pluggo's death (though I've never been really comfortable with pluggo).
To conclude this long post, I used to say : "what's good about max, is that it's only limited by your imagination", I guess I'll have to had some "but"s to that adage.
The King is dead, Long live the King !
My 2 cents
Leo
f.e wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 11:47
- death of pluggo and worse, a love affair with the most commercially used software which is the absolute opposite of what base users would use as a software for composing. If you want to do electro-disco-looping, you'll use Live of course, but max users are max users because they do something else than that and that's why they've learned this tool. I don't mean one is better than the other, don't start to troll me here, i just say they're just VERY different.
f.e
from what you are saying above pluggo hosts like
protools, nuendo, tracktion, fruity loops or rax
would be a better tools for IDM artists and
creative composers than ableton live is.
as much as i hate LIVE and the the idea of no
pluggo in my next steinberg workstation in 2015,
i have to disagree a bit with this idea.
i also do not understand why many of us are
using ableton as one of their main tools, but
it is probably the platform with the most
pluggo users.
RabidRaja wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 01:54
but i have heard some people push the limits of it beyond just the mundane live-sequencing-of-clips/live-sequencing-of-effects so I suppose it's possible if you're willing to think outside the box that it puts itself in... mostly, though it does have this way of... um... 'quantizing' people's personalities within this weird grid-o'-trendiness to the point where many 'Live' performers are merely trying to find the right setup of cookie-cutter functions for them to fit within a particular scene or style...
I have to agree with Raj on this point. I have used Live off and
on for years and was always unimpressed with it as a composing
environment. The session view forces you to think of music as
a sequence of repeating scenes. Maybe that is great for DJs and
producers, but it is really not the way I think of music when I
compose.
For me music is a constantly evolving flow that does not
repeat, each moment is unique, and builds on the perception
of the last moment, moving towards the anticipation of the next.
The representation of that is just as unique to each piece that
I compose. That is why I love Max so much, it allows me to build
a composition environment around the way I think and feel music
should be made. I am free to organize that any way I want!
Not shoe horn my thoughts into an inflexible quantized matrix.
Don't get me wrong it is a great tool for performing, but Live's
Arrangement view has a long ways to go. It really does not even
come close to the level of functionality I am used to with Sonar.
Who knows, perhaps there is a lot to Live and M4L that I have
yet to discover. I guess we will see how this turns out...
One of the things I'm really starting to dig about MFL's API access to Live is the way I can re-order events in the arrangement view non-linearly, and keep it in time if I want, or not.
Being able to relocate host transport from a plug-in is definitely one of those things you don't normally get to do, and I think it's an awesome tool to have.
-A
you can do that with rewire...
Yeah sure you can. You can do it with MIDI in some hosts too. But not as reliably.
Besides, rewire lacks bi-directional audio.
-A
Andrew Pask wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 14:00
Besides, rewire lacks bi-directional audio.
-A
As a side note, I would love to know who's idea that was.
yes M4L, nice indeed but...
for YEARS now my workflow (and investment) was around max, radial, pluggo and recently mode. NOW you have break that ditching radial away (which is not a big deal until the next apple os upgrade probably) both pluggo and mode (which i can recently run only within radial without much headache). but the last nail was the ditchin pluggo dev out of max, since THAT was the true beauty for me. do some process in max, make it pluggo, run it in radial, record live. not to mention that i bought some commercial libraries too. with this policy my future (and my investment) with c74 sux.
so, my route is either,
to invest in Ableton and M4L (no matter how generous the discount wil be it will be alot), reinvent my workflow (although the mixer in Live vs matrix in radial are like Ba ba black sheep vs Bitches Brew) and prepare as much as i can in clips (although i NEVER prepared anything for radial)
or
ditch max as well (never upgraded to 5 because the lack of pluggo
dev tools and say bye to c74 and buy couple of macs before Apple shows us the new cat (if there is any cat left)
and they used to called me the c74 mannequin ±.
± mannequin |ˈmanikən|
noun
a dummy used to display clothes in a store window.
• chiefly historical a young woman or man employed to show clothes to customers.
seriously. If rewire could go both ways, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Nick Inhofe wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 14:36seriously. If rewire could go both ways, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
yeah, wish it did.
whoa i can´t stop posting to these pluggo threads.
the sound quality of ableton live?
the sound quality???
considered that INSIDE your pluggo plug-ins
you only have 24 bits of precision when you
sum 2 signals, the sound quality of the host
(nuendo vs live?) is really the last thing
you should worry about.
rant finished, back to normal.
-110
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 10:39I am now considering switching a whole university toward pd and sc, which means 60+ licenses, plus 80 students per year not being part of what is a lovely community.
It reminds me how railway companies cut small inefficient tracks, and suddenly realize they where not inefficient at all, they kept the big efficient ones running...
60+ licenses + 80 potential new customers per year? That would make some money to keep development running, and I bet you are not the only one...
Stefan
24-bits is not a problem, it gives you more dynamic range than surrounding analog electronics like your monitoring system. it is enough to sum 2 signals (but not for summing in a big mixer). I wrote my own summing external for Max/MSP when I played with additive synthesis.
what determines the sound quality in a DAW is gain management (especially in connection with mix/submix summing), how/when they apply dither in their internal stages and the quality of the EQ algorithms (and other processing).
best is to buy high quality eq/compressor plugins (like sonnox), you'd be surprised of the things happening in the bundled stuff. Logic (which otherwise sounds very good) has bad EQ with strange ringing sideeffect. unfortunately good plugins will cost you as much as the DAW.
personally I still use my analog mixer. if nothing else simply because I get good results faster. but you need good sounding (which means expensive) converters. This also means I can use analog EQ:s and compressors of good quality.
being aware of sound quality will give you a wider palette to paint with. from soft and sweet to high impact wall of sound.
Roman Thilenius wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 18:04
whoa i can´t stop posting to these pluggo threads.
the sound quality of ableton live?
the sound quality???
considered that INSIDE your pluggo plug-ins
you only have 24 bits of precision when you
sum 2 signals, the sound quality of the host
(nuendo vs live?) is really the last thing
you should worry about.
rant finished, back to normal.
-110
Roman Thilenius wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 01:04
considered that INSIDE your pluggo plug-ins
you only have 24 bits of precision when you
sum 2 signals, the sound quality of the host
(nuendo vs live?) is really the last thing
you should worry about.
It is not because I use bitmunging on one track that I want my reverb tail to be 4 bit...
pa
f.e wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 03:47
a love affair with the most commercially used software which is the absolute opposite of what base users would use as a software for composing. If you want to do electro-disco-looping, you'll use Live of course, but max users are max users because they do something else than that and that's why they've learned this tool.
Hmmm...note to self- be more polite. Ok.
That is absolute rubbish. Hey, news flash - the "warp" "loop" buttons do not have to be activated in Live!
Sorry guys I just find all this Live bashing kind of silly. But hey, if it's not your thing then that's cool. I know many people who use Live (including myself) who do not do looping disco stuff. It really is more useful and diverse than many on this thread are giving it credit for.
Just think of it as a big shiny timeline object.
Gregory Taylor wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 15:54Just think of it as a big shiny timeline object.
Ha ha - yes, good idea!!
Quote:Just think of it as a big shiny timeline object.
It's only available in Max 6
stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a "proper DAW" to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a "live sequencing instrument" (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the "performance practice" side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary...
Words of wisdom stringtapper - I agree!
Cycling74, thank you for being honest about your future.
Mr. Cheney, on the other hand, has recently reversed his position that release of internal memos would be bad for national security. Instead he wants them made public so he can publish them in his memoirs. I also remember him saying he didn't think what he endorsed being done to POWs wasn't much worse than what he did for his job, standing at his desk for so many hours and so on. So I hope he decided to prove it and let himself be subjected to the same things that were done in Guatanamo so we could all admire him for demonstrating he meant what he said.
rhizomeman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 17:18stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a "proper DAW" to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a "live sequencing instrument" (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the "performance practice" side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary...
Words of wisdom stringtapper - I agree!
Any attempt at characterizing uses for max will always create rule breakers out weighing those who abide.
One beauty of max is that cycling made an effort to keep it as transient, universal, and generic as possible.
"Anthing in, Anything out, now"
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 19:31rhizomeman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 17:18stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a "proper DAW" to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a "live sequencing instrument" (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the "performance practice" side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary...
Words of wisdom stringtapper - I agree!
Any attempt at characterizing uses for max will always create rule breakers out weighing those who abide.
One beauty of max is that cycling made an effort to keep it as transient, universal, and generic as possible.
"Anthing in, Anything out, now"
Well I already addressed this with my comment on how Max is "many things to many people," so we all already know this to be true. But I guess it doesn't hurt to say it again.
When I commented on the pairing of Max and Live I was thinking back to the inception of Max and the reasons behind it, namely its application to interactive computer music which is inherently tied to performance. Live as a "live sequencing instrument" seems to me to be a good environment for this. Timeline object on steroids indeed.
@Live bashers:
Lots of ignorant statements being made about Live here I'm afraid. Not every tool works for every job. Of course I use Finale and Logic when I work with scored parts because those are the tools that work for that application. But to dismiss Live as some toy, well, frankly, that doesn't sound very imaginative to me...
stringtapper wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 18:50Matthew Aidekman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 19:31rhizomeman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 17:18stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let's just hope live goes belly up, so they'll have to work with a proper DAW
pa
This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a "proper DAW" to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a "live sequencing instrument" (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the "performance practice" side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary...
Words of wisdom stringtapper - I agree!
Any attempt at characterizing uses for max will always create rule breakers out weighing those who abide.
One beauty of max is that cycling made an effort to keep it as transient, universal, and generic as possible.
"Anthing in, Anything out, now"
Well I already addressed this with my comment on how Max is "many things to many people," so we all already know this to be true. But I guess it doesn't hurt to say it again.
When I commented on the pairing of Max and Live I was thinking back to the inception of Max and the reasons behind it, namely its application to interactive computer music which is inherently tied to performance. Live as a "live sequencing instrument" seems to me to be a good environment for this. Timeline object on steroids indeed.
@Live bashers:
Lots of ignorant statements being made about Live here I'm afraid. Not every tool works for every job. Of course I use Finale and Logic when I work with scored parts because those are the tools that work for that application. But to dismiss Live as some toy, well, frankly, that doesn't sound very imaginative to me...
I'm with you nice pairing... a pairing like operating systems and word processors. .0001% as useful as operating systems and applications.
Yes, we all can agree that the uses for max are diverse.
But, many uses for Live as well...
It makes me seriously sad. I was happy today and just discovered this. This lost means a lot to me.
With this decision, you are not only destructing pluggo, but with it, many potential music and ideas and collaborations.
Pluggo was so great to use, even with the bugs !
From the bottom of my heart : Thank you very much.
Hey, let's put it in perspective. This last week, the politicians said they knew the CIA to lying to the public and said it was ok as long as they don't lie to congress. Meanwhile Nancy Pelosi claims the CIA lied to her about waterboarding. Compared to torture, it's all good.
I'm just glad CYcling74 is still in business after what the Republicans did the economy in the last eight years.
Hey Ernest,
Let me guess - you voted for McCain!!
just tried wormhole w protools... bad news. dropouts and latency city.
is there something in the digidesign contract that makes developers unable to write plugins which communicate with the outside world?
I just want to use protools, but be able to leave it!
evil... THEY'RE EVIL!
-matt
*
bd
Well I was planning to develop some VST plugins, and I had already been told I would have to use MAX/MSP 4 or wait for Pluggo to be upgraded. Now it has, but I can't develop VST plugins except for Abtleton Live, and I am not really much of a looper type.
So meanwhile I am starting a letter writing campaign to defend the constitution. If we expect good leadership, we have to defend the constitutional rights of those who lead us, in fact even more than anybody else's, or how can we expect good leadership? And public officials are walked into meetings where they are told they cannot record or take notes of what happens. All other aspects of public officials are held in the limelight--their income, even their sex lives--and it should be illegal for any government agency to command clandestine actions from a public official. Public officials often need to defend their actions from records of past events, and forbidding them to keep such records violates their rights as citizens. If the CIA is permitted to command what public officials do in secret meetings, then how can we claim to be a free nation? Not even those we elect to rule us are able to openly share facts, and instead we are reduced to nothing more than petty gossip mongering about whether we believe one person or another. It makes mockery of this country's ideals when even those elected to defend our constitutional rights cannot defend their own.
Ernest,
Shit man, and I thought my posts were off topic! Look Ernest, while I appreciate your political angst this is not the proper forum for your rants. We are all here to praise Pluggo and bash Live as just a silly looper - oops the misinformation/propaganda got to me too - damn!
Best,
rhizomeman
Well, I had been commissioned to write some blogs on Max/msp in exchange for an educational discount. Now with the change in product direction I no longer can implement my original ideas in Max/MSP, and rather than get annoyed at Cycling '74, which is just trying to make a living in a dismal economic climate, I took out my angst on the loss of national pride we have all experienced due to this country's abysmal record of lies, deception, and red herrings to stop us from thinking how much private money Bush/Cheney extracted for themselves out of the Iraq war. I guess it's rubbed off on me and I started getting red herringed myself.
to some extent he is not wrong pointing out that
there are bigger problems than pluggo. (if that is
what he wanted to tell us.)
no pluggo really makes me sad, but i currently invest
more time into the defency of the almost-complete
installation of internet censorship - the end of
democracy - in germany.
THIS is a REAL problem.
we should eventually rethink our priority list from
time to time.
That being said, I am sad for the musicians who hoped for other thigns from pluggo. But California's unemployment is reaching 12% I think, and while Texas is considering secession, California is stumped with problems like the highest unemployment ever, massive debts, highest foreclsures in the nation, and the sad rumor that President Bush only raised $300 million for his library last month, thus indicating how bad off things really are.
Ernest, please stop. This isn't the place for a political discussion. Thanks.
ok. I too am very disappointed with the decision. I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn't get in the looping spirit of things. I have a tiny but very loyal user base for my instruments, and they all asked for standalone VST instruments that work on both PCs and Macs and don't require a third party tool. I'm not quite sure to do for them any more. It's turned into a quandary, as there appears to be no dedicated environment for developing cross-platform musical instruments any more.
Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn't get in the looping spirit of things.
Then turn off the "warp" and "loop" buttons or work in the arrangement view - it ain't just for loopn' kiddo!
i use live strictly as a sequencer. recording from max/reason into live and arrange/master the audio. no loops necessary.while other applications might be better for this, i like live because it is relatively light and stable for a DAW, supports AU/VSTs, makes sample organization really easy, is simple to navigate through, is pretty cheap for students with Live LE ($239), makes chopping/processing/rerecording a breeze.
but, obviously, i still support pluggo over M4L. even being a live user, i don't think it's right for C74 to choose another program's user base over its own. but C74 is made of good people so i am sure this decision came after much deliberation and very challenging programming obstacles.
comfortable, you bring up good point about stability. Live is one of the most stable pieces of software I have ever used and the only thing I use when performing live. It has never crashed during a show - never. Max/msp 4 unfortunately has - in fact during a recent electronic music festival I witnessed it crashing on every performance that used it. Max 5 is MUCH more stable and I assume M4L will be very stable as well. This stability is something to look forward to.
Max 4 never ever jamais jamás de los jamases crashed while i was performing...
It crashed before the performance, while i was building my patches, most probably because of my own erros, but never crashed onece the patch was good.
f.e
Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn't get in the looping spirit of things.
Along with the occasionally popular "I haven't looked at Live since Version 2 but I'm sure it's not a 'serious' tool," this particular meme always surprises me coming from the mouths of otherwise clever people. I don't think I've *ever* used Live for loops unless I was doing some kind of quickie trade show thing at NAMM. I am strictly a timeline user, and it works quite nicely for that.
Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 15:57Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn't get in the looping spirit of things.
Along with the occasionally popular "I haven't looked at Live since Version 2 but I'm sure it's not a 'serious' tool," this particular meme always surprises me coming from the mouths of otherwise clever people. I don't think I've *ever* used Live for loops unless I was doing some kind of quickie trade show thing at NAMM. I am strictly a timeline user, and it works quite nicely for that.
Gregory, as a newcomer to ableton who is just following Cycling's lead and taking some private in-person tutorials, I disagree that you should be surprised. As to the "true nature" of live, I can't speak to that yet but it was presented as a "chunk arranger." Again the tutorial given to me, gave me the idea that doing something like selecting k,s,h,t1,t2,t3,ohl,ohr and doing in depth editing seems... less then easy.
If you think that this sort of thing is going unseen, I would suggest part of your business plan to be getting the word out somehow. This is because live has a rep. And as far as I can tell, I see no media talking about the ability of a Live guy to whiz around the app like one those protools guys with blurry hands keeping track of 96 track sessions. (me)
EDIT: just to add, this is coming from a guy desperate to leave protools almost soley because of it's inability to play nice with apps like max.
Well. I couldn't really get into using it for timeline recording either, but it may not be LE's fault. I started on Cakewalk 1.0 and I got accustomed to particular ways of doing things. It may just be that I'm getting too old to change to new software very frequently.
Dear Gregory and others
You know what I do, and I know what you do, so high props first, due respect and everything (Québécois hugs and West coast accolades as well)
Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 22:57I am strictly a timeline user, and it works quite nicely for that.
Does it mean that you keep the audio in MSP? Live is your timeline? I've heard catastrophic mixes out of Live, loosing much of the width and subtly. I am not an audio quality freak, but I really like the bounce to sound like the actual playback... hence me going away from Logic to Nuendo and now back to Digital Performer 6, but using PT hardware when I can...
The audio result sounds like the same difference between 16 and 24 bit versions of the same mix...
pa
Quote:I've heard catastrophic mixes out of Live, loosing much of the width and subtly. I am not an audio quality freak, but I really like the bounce to sound like the actual playback... hence me going away from Logic to Nuendo and now back to Digital Performer 6, but using PT hardware when I can...
Same to me. This is a thing i still don't understand. How could it be so bad in certain softwares in the 21th century ? I don't know much about Live, but i know for sure things like FL Studio should only be used as step sequencers, the audio output is terrible...
f.e
rhizomeman wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 19:28Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn't get in the looping spirit of things.
Then turn off the "warp" and "loop" buttons or work in the arrangement view - it ain't just for loopn' kiddo!
Sure, but you understand people are pissed, right?
Pluggo was probably discontinued the moment cycling shaked hands with Gerhard Behles some 3 years ago...
Hopefully this result in Live developing into a proper DAW. There is a lot of potential that is not in conflict with als. backwards compability.
My guess is that after Live ten they change it into Ableton Studio or something ass. (ableton studio session )
Cheers
Thanks for the kind words. Mr. T.
I'm sure that this isn't your issue at all, but the last time I ran across this, the person in question was really annoyed, but
they were't routing their output to their interface and capturing the audio somewhere else and a/bing *that* - they had warping turned on, so (this was my guess, anyway) Live was rendering stuff perfectly well, but introducing all kinds of warp-related schmoo during the playback through Live itself. Could that be the issue with some of what you've heard?
I'm sure my ears are not nearly as golden as yours. Too many hours in the garage with everything set to 11.
I have heard people rag on Live's mixdown audio quality, but I have never noticed that. Maybe I need to mix down close to 100 tracks or something like that. I did a blind mixdown test when I first started using it compared to DP. Couldn't tell the difference.
If you are testing audio quality it's important to have someone else play back the files without you knowing which is which. Otherwise, you will be biased. I've heard differences in audio quality when my plugin "bypass" was pressed - I felt really stupid:(
rhizomeman wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 09:24I have heard people rag on Live's mixdown audio quality, but I have never noticed that. Maybe I need to mix down close to 100 tracks or something like that. I did a blind mixdown test when I first started using it compared to DP. Couldn't tell the difference.
If you are testing audio quality it's important to have someone else play back the files without you knowing which is which. Otherwise, you will be biased. I've heard differences in audio quality when my plugin "bypass" was pressed - I felt really stupid:(
happened to the best of us.
In regards to Ableton's sound quality, i did a test a little bit ago where I took a loop from Reason, exported it, then rewired Reason into Live and exported the same loop. In Matlab, I then checked to make sure they were the same number of samples (which they were) and subtracted one from the other. The resulting sound was precisely the difference between the summing engines of Reason and Ableton. It is an interesting listen, and I'll post it once I get back home (at work currently). You can tell though that the difference is in some of the higher frequencies. In general, Ableton sounds brighter than Reason (or, in derogative terms, "tinny"), which means greater clarity but less warmth. You can of course counter this with plug ins/EQs in the master out. The difference is minute and subtle, however. If you really want to improve your sound quality, send your digital audio into analog tape then rerecord it. Smoothes everything out.
rhizomeman wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 09:24I have heard people rag on Live's mixdown audio quality, but I have never noticed that. (
before Live 5 (i think) release, the audio engine was not as good in AbletonLive: in that release, they went to having all internal audio as double precision float: 32 bit , as good as we generally get in audio. They also added full plugin delay compensation (for the plugs that report it). I really can't complain about the basic sound in Live compared to my Digital Performer DAW: Careful use (and lack of use) of the warp stuff
further cleaned up the mix image, and I no longer accept that Live's mixes sound inferior to anyone elses.
Just my tuppence,
cb aka j2k
Well that's good to hear. I always thought Cubase SX's mixer sounded muddy. Some have said the same thing, and I assume it is because the mixing algorithm is designed for lower CPU load when EQ and other such plugins are enabled.
the discussion is getting interesting now.
ernest, live is all double-float? did you hear that from
a friend who is into loops?
and what would be the advance of doubleprecision signal
paths, especially when using VST, pluggo or max4live?
that reason has less dither noise than live is not
a surprise though, as reason does not transport any high
frequencies anyway. my first impression of it was that
it must be all mp3 or DTS.
btw, did you all know that you can make your host
soud better by using impulse responses of a monster
cable on all busses?
-110
Roman Thilenius wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 23:06
the discussion is getting interesting now.
ernest, live is all double-float? did you hear that from
a friend who is into loops?
and what would be the advance of doubleprecision signal
paths, especially when using VST, pluggo or max4live?
that reason has less dither noise than live is not
a surprise though, as reason does not transport any high
frequencies anyway. my first impression of it was that
it must be all mp3 or DTS.
btw, did you all know that you can make your host
soud better by using impulse responses of a monster
cable on all busses?
-110
rofl
and the cynic of the year prize goes to...
I'll put it this way - and this is coming from a neurotic audiophile, music obsessed maniac. I never heard a piece of music mixed down in Live and thought, "Wow that is a cool piece of music but shit, it was ruined by a lousy mixdown which I can perceive and therefore I cannot listen to or enjoy that really great piece!"
Well, I don't think that's pertinent actually. If a musician is trying to make a sound but can't because the software distorts it, then it is something the musician doesn't particularly like.
We can still enjoy whatever results the musician manages to create, but that doesn't have any bearing on the musician's experience.
I don't know anything about how Live mixes music. With regard to mixdown, I do know that I was been disappointed subjectively with mixdown in Cubase SX1. So I reverted to Cubsase VST32 v5.0 which is an amazing package considering its time.
Technically, data type is not the only pertinent factor in mixdown. Other factors include sample-rate changing algorithms, anti-aliasing techniques, type conversion, and back-end integration of audio processing.
Well it is true that Live has its own sound - clear and clean, in fact, nothing like Reason hopefully but in my opinion not as transparent as Pro Tools or Logic for instance.
Actually I've been writing consistent articles about it every year since version 2 in French magazines, am using it live to play stuff ranging from abstract electroacoustic music or acoustic guitar and vocals to death metal/electronica/breakcore on stage, and have read the 567 pages of its documentation once again when version 8 came out. So believe me I have been using it a lot and think I do know every small function of it.
Then you certainly don't have to use Live for its ability to play with loops, which I NEVER do. Most of my tracks are empty with complex effects and synths prepared so that I can make my own music in real time, with mikes and stuff. I have nothing against loops, but even without that none of my other DAWS can let me do what I do with Live. It sure is nothing like Max though, and it cannot replace Pro Tools in my opinion either. It is in between many things, and can do wonders if you learn how to use it for real - not talking about playing with 3 loops and changing the tempo once in a while, which is an ability they use to sell the product for sure.
Of course there are things I don't like with Live, the main one being that it sort of pushes musicians to make music in a certain way. I mean it has its own flow and might make you do things you wouldn't do on a regular DAW, probably just because you can work on it without ever stopping the sound. Then I would never do a mastering in Live, miss some consistent fades and crossfades (although there are some since Live , etc. Therefore I still use Pro Tools for everything that is not... live. And Max/MSP, of course.
About the sound by the way, since Live 7 Ableton uses double precision 64 bits summing at every mixing point where signals are mixed, although internal treatments are still in 32 bit float. Might be just better than Max MSP on that point, although I still think Live has a specific sound. Anyway instead of guessing just get the documentation and read the audio information part around page 520... lots of things to learn there.
To end this long post I am extremely sorry about Pluggo though, as I was one of those people waiting for it to work with Max 5. I am quite excited about Max for Live, which I'm sure will be a great improvement for many musicians but still... That's only good if you think Live is the only DAW you'll ever need, which is still not my case.
Even with 64-bit floating point summing you'll need to correctly dither when you go back to the 32-bit databus (which in reality is 24-bits precision).
All to many software packages rely on floating point rounding errors to mask the lack of dithering. They are not the same. Rounding errors is signal-dependent (i.e. distortion) and dithering is pure random (i.e. noise).
Live 8 is very-very overpriced and I especially dont like the sound of Max/MSP stacked on top of Live. Both are a bit on the harsh side.
Try Max/MSP via analog tape (I have a big and very heavy Telefunken M15 mastering deck) - sounds really great! But my favourite is to just run it through some apogee pro-converters, neve summing, tube EQ and various iron (transformers) as this keeps the fast digital sound but takes out the thin laptoppiness - gives a more mature sound that I like.
another thing is that reason always sounded cheap to me.
Have you compared with ProTool HW? With Digital Performer or Nuendo?
pa
yes. after I've made my super aliased fm oscillators, ripped the spectrum apart with an fft transform and re-arranged everything with a non-windowed sample slicer, I always run everything to $10k analog summing mixer to preserve its quality! I'll post a pic on gearslutz in a minute.
:0
Mr T to Mr T - amps at 11 are good! I am comparing bounces to mix, it was a couple of years ago so it might have improved in Live.
To rhizomeman and others, I am not an audiophile. I just want the bounce to sound as near as possible my sounddesign/mix I have tweeked for hours... makes sense, sounds basic, yet Pro-Tools is the only thing that is 100% true.
Logic has come a long way from 6 (unusable) to 7 (almost ok) to 8 (good as long as you don't use the convolution reverb.
Nuendo is not bad. DP is better now, but I have not done this testing systematically for a long time, so maybe I need to compare the newest Live as well...
I never really thought about the fact that so many people blame summing for some poor mix aesthetics and here I am in MSP potentially summing thousands of signals. I wonder what the quality of the wordclocking is etc etc. Gearslutz meets max. please no!
All that being said, if this was the worst thing about the death of pluggo, I don't think I'd care very much.
Roman Thilenius wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 23:06btw, did you all know that you can make your host
soud better by using impulse responses of a monster
cable on all busses?
Yes, absolutely, but you need to place an analog picture of the cable on each track to make it really shine. These high sizzles sounds are without comparison....
Stefan
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 19:15Have you compared with ProTool HW? With Digital Performer or Nuendo?
I doubt that anybody in the world has ever done such a test. Think about what it would require, someone who is completely familiar with all these tools, and with the time to redo the whole mix several times.
For each tool there are different strategies to get the best result. If you just import other sessions, you haven't really compared them...
I use the tool I am familiar with, I know best how to get the results I want to achieve. If I am forced to use a different tool, I'll probably be able to get some results as well, but if I don't know it by heart, I feel uncomfortable, this alone does more to the sound than any technology nowadays could do...
By principle you won't be able to ever do a double blind test...
Stefan
I totally second that.
stefantiedje wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 21:34tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 19:15Have you compared with ProTool HW? With Digital Performer or Nuendo?
I doubt that anybody in the world has ever done such a test. Think about what it would require, someone who is completely familiar with all these tools, and with the time to redo the whole mix several times.
For each tool there are different strategies to get the best result. If you just import other sessions, you haven't really compared them...
Stefan
i dont think there are "strategies" to make
a summing test.
you read in 100 short samples on 100 tracks
and press export. that takes a few minutes.
then you compare the results digitally and
if there is a difference, you compare them
in a superb listening enviroment such as
a commercial mastering studio house.
i think we all know that as soon as you multiply
3 signals of 24 bit precision there are errors which
could be reduced when the signal precision is raised
before summing, even if you cut the extra bits
off again undithered at the end.
if that makes a big difference in most situations
is another question.
for now you should be on the safe side by not
using Reason. most recording studios which are
recording singers and guitarists dont use reason.
5 more posts and this thread is officially hijacked.
Mix summing differences in DAWs has been discussed to death over at gearslutz.com. Tests that people have done are called "null" tests where one of the mixes is inverted and when combined with the second should null if they are identical. I believe the results were that all major DAWs, Pro Tools, DP, Logic, Sonar, Cubase, etc. if not using automation and without plugins were all identical or close enough. However, it was the way the different DAWs interacted with automation and plugins that made bigger differences. I'm not sure about the science of all this but do a search at gearslutz for the posts - lots of heated argument, foul language, and name calling - typical gearslutz thread!
-rhizomeman
Roman Thilenius wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 21:395 more posts and this thread is officially hijacked.
here is one
Seriously, I was more thinking of doing some discriminating bounces in the same studio on different DAWs. I might have a day to spare in thenext weeks (relativel speaking) so I might do it. I have Nuendo, PT HD, DP, Logic in that studio. I just miss live...
a kind o text of having subtle reverb tail (altiverb, same setting) on soft delay-pan clicks (the kind of stuff easy to do with generic-effect, boohoohoo pluggo is dead, back on the thread, boohoohoo).
any other idea for a relevant test?
pa