Making Max/MSP your livlihood?

Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
----------------------------------------------------
> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,

Would that be Walden College?

(Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)

----------------------------------------------------

To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job offers listed in the Guardian every week.

What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give you an idea of the variety of things I do.

It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.

Is there what you would call a going rate for that kind of work? I do
not want to be as impolite to ask you what you charge, but I feel like
if I decide to do a job like this for someone that I wouldn't know
what to charge. Max union?

Keith

On 5/3/07, Peter Castine wrote:
>
> Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
> ----------------------------------------------------
> > I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> > Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,
>
> Would that be Walden College?
>
> (Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job offers listed in the Guardian every week.
>
> What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give you an idea of the variety of things I do.
>
> It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.
> --
> -------------- http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/ -------------
> Peter Castine +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
>
> iCE: Sequencing, Recording & Interface Building for Max/MSP Extremely cool http://www.dspaudio.com/
>
>

keith manlove wrote:
> Is there what you would call a going rate for that kind of work? I do
> not want to be as impolite to ask you what you charge, but I feel like
> if I decide to do a job like this for someone that I wouldn't know
> what to charge. Max union?

I don't know about Peter, can just speak for myselfe: since most
projects that need a Max programmer are not commercial projects but art
projects I usually get paid a fixed sum for the project. So the per hour
rate that you could calculate from this differs a lot depending on how
complex a project turns out to be. You have to be really good in
estimating how long it will take you in order to earn more than just a
symbolic compensation for your work.
If you want to earn big money learn database programming or these kind
of things. - Hhm, this must sound really negative. - If you feel you
really want to do it, do it! But it's really hard to find jobs in the
beginning when nobody knows you. And even if people know you, I have a
feeling there aren't that many Max projects that have the money to
seriously pay a programmer. I usually do 2 or 3 Max related projects a
year (plus some more were I don't get paid at all) and earn the money
other people would earn in 1 or 2 month. So it needs a lot of extra taxi
driving or whatever to survive.

good luck,
Olaf

> On 5/3/07, Peter Castine wrote:
>>
>> Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> > I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
>> > Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,
>>
>> Would that be Walden College?
>>
>>
>> (Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>
>> To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my
>> livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related
>> programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job
>> offers listed in the Guardian every week.
>>
>> What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with
>> Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number
>> of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche
>> with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give
>> you an idea of the variety of things I do.
>>
>> It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.
>> --
>> -------------- http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/ -------------
>> Peter Castine +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
>>
>> iCE: Sequencing, Recording & Interface Building for Max/MSP
>> Extremely cool http://www.dspaudio.com/
>>
>>
>

Although there are plenty of programmers out there who are specialized at coding alone, I still feel that programming is a tool, and not a job.
The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do. As an example: most of the programs used in aerospace projects are written by aerospace engineers, not trained programmers. Max/MSP is pretty useless without the music its users hope to create, and wouldn't be necessary if those users don't want to do something they can't do in another way.
That said, it must be obvious that I think the primary strength of a Max/MSP programmer is his or her understanding of and connection to music.

Personally, things have developed this way for me: I continue to get hired for the same sort of composing and performing jobs that I always have, but now that I use Max/MSP, I have a tremendous tool for creative expression which I now wonder how I ever did without. Even when I get hired to do something purely in the realm of programming, the person hiring me could care less about what I use to get the job done, as long as it works for the project. The sorts of projects I do (usually coproductions with state-supported theaters) generally pay a predefined amount which is reflected in the budget-proposal of the person submitting the project. It is seldom much money; a good monthly wage, but doesn't pay for the months between projects. I get more per hour by performing, but spend alot of time hoping that performances will sell. Workshops are another good form of income. All of my recent workshops involved Max/MSP, but the subjects of the workshops were not the language, but a specifc aspect of what could be done with it.

Hope this helps.

> All of my recent workshops involved Max/MSP, but the subjects of
> the workshops were not the language, but a specifc aspect of what
> could be done with it.

I completely agree with this point of view. A tool is a tool is a
tool. If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from
an artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant
mean (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/
Pluggo suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art
independently of tool trends and fashion. Otherwise, you will be
stuck like most power users when the tool they master become obsolete.

My 2 cents

pa

ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is
interested, I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in
mixed music...

Hi Pierre Alexandre,

Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> I completely agree with this point of view. A tool is a tool is a
> tool. If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from an
> artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant mean
> (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/Pluggo
> suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art independently of
> tool trends and fashion.

I can't agree with you here, because I don't think that an 'artistic
goal' will ever remain completely unchanged through our exposure to and
relationship with the means used to bring it about. Simplicity and
elegance, for example, represent a particular, value-laden, approach to
bringing something about (vs., say, quick n' dirty) and the process of
pursuing this approach is quite likely to impact on the original idea in
some more or less substantive way. IOW, when all you have is a hammer...

> ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is interested,
> I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in mixed music...

Shame to miss that, but people keep leaving oceans lying all over the
place. Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you
haven't already?

--
Owen

At the moment our company develops an elaborate piece of software in max/msp. We're funded by the government and an audiovisual artist (eboman). As a lead programmer of the company, projects like these have been my full time occupation for the past two years or so.

Must say that from what I hear it is not common to use max as a full-blown programming language like we do. ;)

Mattijs

Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
----------------------------------------------------
> hi everyone,
> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course. Whereas I'm no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths. I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?
> I would really appreciate any info / pointers!
> Thank you very much
> Tom
----------------------------------------------------

I would be interested if some of you who responded to this thread would consider doing occasional consulting.

I'm just venturing into this computer-music space. I have lots of ideas, but not much time to come up learning curves to figure out how to create patches that do what I have in mind.

I'm considering using Max/MSP as a host environment for my music . I'm going to download the trial ver. and go through the tutorials. But I'm sure I'll need help from time to time. For example, if I run into difficulting trying to create a patch to do what I want, I wouldn't mind paying someone for their expertise to help me. Or, paying someone for a patch that they designed which does a particular effect. Or, helping me get up the learning curve faster by answering questions.

Being new to this community, I don't know if this is common practice. I value the expertise that people have developed I think its fair to compensate them. My resources are limited but if you are interested in a possible occasional consulting, let me know offline: empyrean @ oregon.com.

On 4 May 2007, at 10:45, Dayton wrote:

> The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to
> have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do.

Actually, I think the biggest challenge is to have an understanding
of what the client wants/needs. Everything else follows from that.

I'm often asked if (or how) I make a living from Max/MSP, and the
answer tends to be slightly different each time, but there's almost
always something Max-related going on, from composition and
performance through writing and teaching through to infrastructure
for arts projects. I think the key to freelancing in this area is to
be versatile, and to constantly pick up new technologies and
techniques. It's good to specialise, but only if you can specialise
in lots of things at the same time...

(In my current thread of Max work, I've managed to incorporate the
Spring Framework into MXJ; this is because I have a little project to
bring back a feature thrown away after Max 3. I'll say no more at
this stage, although I fully expect Peter C. to guess what it is.)

    -- N.

Nick Rothwell / Cassiel.com Limited
www.cassiel.com
www.myspace.com/cassieldotcom
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