midi manipulation patch

I would look into using coll to store the data, because you can keep more info at each index (compared to table).

I've done some patches that do the reverse (aka retrograde) of a sequence but it is a bit tricky, especially in real time.

Theres number of things to consider-

do you want the notes of the reverse sequence to be the same length as those recorded?
For this, you need to not only record the pitch and velocity of each note, but also their duration. This can be done with the [timer] object, but it gets more complicated if you are recording multiple simultaneous notes.

Do you want to record the time in between notes as well (aka inter-onset interval)?
This is also a job for timer.

So, if you wanted all of these things, you could use a combination of notein,timer, counter and coll (among others) to record the pitch, velocity and inter-onset interval of the note each note at a different index in coll. I would consider the inter-onset interval to be the time between the recorded note and the previous note.

Once you have all the notes of the sequence recorded into a coll, you have to get them back out, in reverse. You can use the length message to coll to see how many items, and then use that information to set the maximum of a counter.

You can use the pitch, velocity and duration information with makenote to create the note, and then use delay to set the timing between notes.

Also, I know you said you wanted realtime, but the easier way to do this in logic is with the transform functions in the matrix editor. To reverse, you simply set the loop points around the sequence you want, then go to functions->transform->reverse position.

This is not to try and discourage you from the patch! I think it would be a good (though difficult) excercise! I also think the approach of trying to get something out of what you already learned before going ahead is very good. It allows you to be creative with Max/MSP immediately and will help you much more than if you went through the MSP tutorials without any real-life max experience.

If I can come up with a simple patch to illustrate some of the stuff I mentioned, I will. But for now, its off to cook dinner!

At 6:40 PM -0600 7/3/07, Matthew Williams wrote:
> So i figured i'd start one at a time.. so i decided to just try and reverse a given sequnce. From what i've gathered from the tutorials, the table object would be the best place to start for all of these ().

Yeah, either table or coll, they both have good and bad points. I tend to use coll unless there's a good reason to use table. For example, you would need two tables to hold pitch and velocity, but they could live in one coll. I've built sequence-like objects with both table and coll.

Anyway, reversing the order by reversing the index is really easy feed the number of notes in your sequence into the right inlet of the !- object, and the positive index into the right inlet. An example:

-C

--
Chris Muir | "There are many futures and only one status quo.
cbm@well.com | This is why conservatives mostly agree,
http://www.xfade.com | and radicals always argue." - Brian Eno

ok. i couldnt help myself. Here is a patch to record a monophonic sequence (no overlapping notes!) and then play it back in reverse.

Play some notes from logic or whatever through notein. If you want to start over, initialize the patch by hitting the initialize button. When you have a sequence recorded, hit the playback in reverse button.

This patch requires that each note be fully off before the next one starts. You can probably make this patch polyphonic but it would take some work.

Along the way, I think I found a bug in the counter object, which I would talk about in another thread. It helped me find a more elegant solution, however, by iterating through the coll using the prev message.

oh. the [t b 1] on the playback section doesnt need to be there anymore. I was originally using it to open the gate at the bottom of the patch, but i found a better way.

thank you guys so much for the replies, they really help. B4 you guys responded, i came up with a very basic way to read a sequence in reverse by using the counter. By setting the argument to 1 (down). So in theory i can gate the original seq to the counter when i want to read through the table in reverse. And by puting int number boxes in the inlets i can also change the loop times via min and max. the only problem now is how to get the table or coll object to receive , for example, just 8 bars of music. also i'm having trouble understanding how to sync the counter to the tempo of the seqs i've recorded into the mtr object. i know i can set a metro to the counter. But this isn't really helpful when using a previously recorded seq in mtr. It seems to me that mtr doesn't really record tempo info, rather it just plays back whats been recorded.

nick thanks for the example patch... very helpful

matthew

This is not to try and discourage you from the patch! I think it would be a good (though difficult) excercise! I also think the approach of trying to get something out of what you already learned before going ahead is very good. It allows you to be creative with Max/MSP immediately and will help you much more than if you went through the MSP tutorials without any real-life max experience.

nick, yeah i realize this... but like you said realtime is very import as this patch would mainly be for live performances. I'm a drummer at heart so it's really important for me to do some sort of realtime beat creation or manipulation. This is one of the main reason i bought max/msp.. for live perfomances.. I'm still goiung to use Logic as my main sequencer and workhorse, but i hope max will help me in the improv and live realm. So as a song plays in logic i'd like to send the midi drums to max and rearrange and tweak and send them back.. So i'm starting here.. Also the appregiator object in logic is a great... but since i'm send the info to max i might aas well be able to appregiate while its there.

thanks again, matthew

I would definitely use seq, not mtr, for note recording. mtr doesn't seem as accurate, and it won't create MIDI files. It's better for recording controller / interface object automations... like selecting different presets, changing sliders, etc...

Coll is generally preferable to table because of the multiple-item lists. However, the graphical editor in table (or multislider, for that matter) is nice. If you had several tables, one could do pitch, one velocity, one duration, on effects level, etc. Then each access gets the value from that index in all the tables, assembles it (probably in a pack) and that's used to make the note.

With a bit of trickery and some understanding of coll, you can use the fact that table bangs out the right outlet when it's edited. Each time it bangs, use an uzi with the table length to bang out all the values and store them in an index in coll. Advance the index each time. This will create a table history / Undo state list you can scroll through, VERY handy!

Reversing or otherwise scrambling the playback is pretty dead simple with counter. Try a Range Bar, set to the total table length, to visually set the min and max of the counter.

Also try the modulus (%) -- then you can have a counter that's the full range (or not) , and as it sweeps through, it only plays every 2nd note, every 3rd, etc. Use (for example) % 4 --> sel 0. This will only bang on 0,4,8,12..... very handy.

Random, urn, and drunk objects are also quite useful for this kind of accessing. Though they may seem not as controllable, you can always go back to plain old "play it forward or backward". But Max is all about trying new ways of storing, manipulating, and accessing your data for new possibilities. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you can generate, and just might get hooked. I know I sure did!

--CJ

Quote: seejayjames wrote on Wed, 04 July 2007 14:52
But Max is all about trying new ways of storing, manipulating, and accessing your data for new possibilities. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you can generate, and just might get hooked. I know I sure did!
>
> --CJ

I'm a little intimidated by max at the moment. As it seems like most of you guys are more computer savy than i am. I'm by no means a computer wiz. so while you guys understand max with one read of the tutorials.. i have to read them like 5 times b4 i understand whats really going on. I look at patches some of you guys make and i'm like Damn i'd never be able to think of all that.. But maybe everyone goes though this in the begining. Do you guys? But maybe thats where max separates itself from other programs. Most people might give up on using max (as it's too hard), but the people who perservier (sp) reap the rewards. I'm getting the hang of it .. i hope.. still wonder if i have the brains for max :(. i def have the will.

thanks for responding guys, matthew

hey matthew. I understand how you feel, I went through the same when starting max/msp, even though I had a background in text based languages. You just need to learn how to walk before you can run... after making many patches, you start to develop ways to think in max. IMO it will take quite a bit more than reading through the tutorials to get a handle on it, so start playing around! have fun :)