particles, OF/Processing VS Max6 ?

    Jun 10 2013 | 9:41 pm
    Hi there, I played a lot with particles since a while with Processing.
    I just tested some personal extrapolation of Kyle Mac Donald's quadtree implementation in Openframworks (for 2D) and also Memo's MSAPhysics (3D)
    Here is a cheap/light stuff with some moving repellers and ome attractors too.
    Now, jit.p.x family.
    Questions: - are jit.p. implemented with Quadtree/Octree like stuff for collision detections ? - can we easily use multiple bounds (workarounding deflectors with box) ? - can we render points only?
    I'm very interested by your opinions & experiences here.
    I'm trying to build my system for my A/V performance and I'd need flocking, circular movements

    • Jun 10 2013 | 11:30 pm
      the jit.p.* objects don't do any collision detecting, except for p.bounds.
      not sure if you can use multiple p.bounds, but should be easy enough to test.
      best way to render points is to send the xyz matrix values to a @draw_mode points
      best object for flocking is the jit.boids3d 3rd party external.
    • Jun 11 2013 | 8:01 am
      Hi Rob and thanks a lot for your answer.
      ok for collision detection, I had to write that, aesthetically speaking, I'd finally prefer to switch off collision detection (saving CPU a lot) and use dynamic & moving flocking target + attractors + repellers with dynamic changing forces.
      Ok about for GL_POINTS drawing.
      Curiously, and now, I know openGL more by coding than by Jitter.
      I'll let you know. In the meantime, here are some snapshot (OF based but..) I'd like to have this kind of rendering in jitter which is totally possible. Here, 16k particles at 60fps. This is a target I want to reach in jitter.
    • Jun 11 2013 | 11:02 am
      I used the java version of boids3d so I could tweak it a little. I was happy with it to create flocking of birds....well...more like robotic fish with wings. ;-)
      I didn't do flapping and gravity so the installation morphed into a Tron-esque forest having silver shaded low-res birds which would fly away from you unless you held up your hands. Then they would come eat the virtual food out of your hands until it was all gone. Attractors, repulse, Kinects, etc. were used, no real birds were harmed, but stacks of boids died. ;-)
      I only used a few hundred birds; more became too Hitchcockian. The 3 simple flocking rules and their params in boids is very flexible and very important to tune so you get the behavior that you like. Everyone has their own artistic preference on how a flock looks and behaves.
      Recently, I wrote GLSL code which renders a pointcloud of 307200 (640x480) vertices. It was trivial in Max to render with points, lines, tri, quads, etc. CPU and GPU were both under 15% (and a chuck of CPU was Kinect raw data processing).
      My approach to several things like this has been to push as much as I can to the GPU. It allows me to use low power/cost CPUs (like the AMD Fusion which include a nice integrated GPU) to do distributed rendering/work. This allows more CPU time for Max's scheduler to do the things it is great for doing. Due to the nature of the Max scheduler w/ graphics, it tends to be single threaded so I have run into scenarios where overall my CPU is only 20% busy but Max can do no more work because it is only running on "one" of the CPU cores.
      Geometry shaders enabled a lot of this. Sometime over the summer, I want to tackle GLSL tessellation if Max can support that program type because they are faster at massive vertex creation than geometry.
      Can I create a Tessellator program in Max 6.1? Julien, perhaps writing some particle work in OpenCL within a Max external? It could be cross-platform and cross-GPU.
    • Jun 11 2013 | 11:45 am
      i made this particle patch a few months ago, little particles are floating in a forcefield, but you saw it Julien already...
      Hit me up on FB and can send over the patch if it can be useful...
      I made it with GEN, not using any of the own particle objects of max...
    • Jun 11 2013 | 2:11 pm
      Hi Dale & Kevin and thanks for your interest & answers :)
      Dale, ok, got it. does the java boids stuff is available somewhere ? I mean, the library.. is it this one ?
      I'm amazed by the collision detection system based on quadtree (2D only here. else: octree) I'm currently digging/testing in OF. 16k particles is very big. For my performance / pieces, I'd need 8k. This work study is about global behaviors and I'd display each particle as a point only (maybe a point with a size of 2 with glEnable(GL_POINT_SIZE) enabled) but points.
      Do you use collision detection ? Maybe it isn't required and of course it would save calculation a lot. Aesthetically, I have to test.
      About attractors, finally, maybe moving flocking targets would be very enough. I mean, flocking handle the whole stuff.
      I like a lot this : There are boids behavior (flocking I mean), kind of deflector planes + attractors planes too etc. A Max object seems to exist but is very old.
      Kevin, of course I watched it and more than one time :) I enjoyed the sound too. and your logo in the background adds this particular mystery we like !
      Both, are you using also vishnu and jit.p stuff ? I don't know if, finally, there is a benefit in my case where, flocking, is required. I mean, my whole system could be: - particles (!) - moving flocking targets & deflector to disturb a bit the quietness - collisions or not
      I'd like to have some groups of particles too (randomly choosen for instance) I'd apply some forces only to on group, flocking to the other and changes etc. Maybe, it would be too much complicated and aesthetically, multiple flocking target concept is very enough.
      I have to check :)
    • Jun 11 2013 | 2:12 pm
      Dale, about the openCL and GLSL stuff, I'm MORE than interested Kevin, jit.gen stuff too (anyway it goes to GLSL too)
    • Jun 11 2013 | 11:24 pm
      Yo Julien, here is the Flowfield attached... not perfect, only 2 dimension, but it was perfect for what i needed it for... maybe some tweek and you can use the object! I can display 2-4000 spheres with this, so i guess 8000 points cant be a problem :) You can add 1 attractor (if the force is negativ then it acts as repeller)...
      ...and the object outputs position matrix so you can use it in or depending on your needs. Use the maxhelp patch to test it!
      to be honest it's so easy to do a jit.gen object to handle the particles the way you want, i had a feeling it's not worth to use wishnu or jit.p ... althought maybe that has some speed optimisation, but i think jit.gen can be pretty fast and if you handle the particle physics inside then you can do more complex movements than the built in objects...
    • Jun 12 2013 | 6:43 am
      Hi Kevin and big thanks I'll check it today
      We have some discussions with Dale about flocking, attractors etc. Aesthetically, flocking seems a very nice way for me. Indeed, I can make things exploding or following one point by tweaking parameters.
      I identified at least 4 big solutions: - jit.boids3D (as suggested by Rob) is nice but I cannot do much more than 2000 particles and even at 1000 it gives sometimes 19fps which isn't enough. (curiously, even boids2D does this) Probably, I can tweak it because we have the sources (provided by André Sier) and even the XCode project :O)
      - java adapted from Dale made a project with that as he explained above. I didn't test it, I'd have to port the processing code to "pure" java which doesn't seem that hard (doesn' seem..) I'd need some deflectors, some attractors and ... check the next item
      - boids library for Processing (and openframeworks) by André Sier (again!) It works very fine. This could be the code I'd port to pure java for use in Max. Anyway, the code works fine with Openframeworks and that could be also the way to go for me.
      - OpenCL making boids using OpenCL seems ok ( that means using QC. I found several stuff to use OpenCL in Max but it is (curiously) very processor (at least gpu) dependant and I didn't achieve to make it working here. I still didn't test OpenCL addon in Openframeworks but the crazy guru Memo Atken made something working with 1M particles (!)
      Someone else did that: more chaos with 700k particles.
      I still didn't choose but flocking would be my real aesthetic choice That means the André's boids for openframeworks could be perfect but afraid of particles number.
      OpenCL seems the way. I'd just need to implement my boids stuff in openCL with the ofxOpenCL code.
    • Jun 12 2013 | 9:33 am
      André pointed me to this nice article:
      and I wanted to show you Antoine's work too:
    • Apr 17 2014 | 1:45 am
      Could somebody elaborate more on detecting collisions in a different way than using the collisions detection of jit.phys.word? With this latest, the computer is choking a lot when there is more than 400 particles...
    • Apr 17 2014 | 8:34 am
      Some of the reading that I have done suggests collision detection with large numbers of objects is somewhat the "nearest neighbor" problem. There are storage mechanisms like R-trees which can help reduce the number of objects that you need to check for such collisions.
    • Apr 17 2014 | 8:35 am
      glsl seems to be the way to process data in the fastest way. Personally, I finally used OpenFrameworks for this project
      I had to use some Barnes Hut implementation and I can go until around 500k particules on the CPU without any problem at 60fps with collision detection and energy conservation (elastic collision)
      Quadtree binning is also a nice way :)
    • Apr 17 2014 | 8:43 am
      (diablodale is fucking fast, he always answers (just) before me!)
    • Sep 28 2016 | 6:18 pm
      Very late to this thread but I'm finding it very useful! I'm wondering if anyone has been able to get the library to work in Max 7? diablodale, I found your updated version on Github but I'm still unable to get the objects to work in Max 7. When I open the boids3d help file, I see the error "newobj * boids3d: no such object." I've moved the libraries around in the Max 7 file hierarchy, made sure to map the directory in which it was stored, and still continue to see this error.
      My ultimate goal is to use this object with the dp.kinect2 object.
      Thanks for any help you can send my way!
    • Sep 28 2016 | 11:29 pm
      Did you compile the objects? The github is only the C source code. And remember to compile it for the 32/64 version that you need.
    • Oct 01 2016 | 2:47 am
      I've downloaded the zip from Github and I'm trying to open the boids.sln file in Visio Studio, but VS is unable to load the individual boids projects. I get variations on this error message:
      C:\Users\carri\Documents\Max 7\Packages\externals\boids_max-master\jit.boids3d\jit.boids3d.vcxproj : error : Unable to read the project file "jit.boids3d.vcxproj". C:\Users\carri\Documents\Max 7\Packages\externals\boids_max-master\jit.boids3d\jit.boids3d.vcxproj(36,5): The imported project "C:\Users\carri\Documents\Max 7\Packages\dale_max_debug.props" was not found. Confirm that the path in the declaration is correct, and that the file exists on disk.
      My friend was able to download and run the original boids library on a Mac using Max 7, so we're very eager to get this running on Windows. Sorry if I'm missing something really basic here, I'm very out of practice with VS.
      Thanks for any tips!
    • Oct 01 2016 | 12:26 pm
      I'm not able to provide support for Visual Studio. You'll need to seek Microsoft's resources for that. Meanwhile, I recommend you create your own project and manually add in the source files, and compile. As you can see in the error message, it is looking for a shared settings file xxxx.props that I use locally in which you do not have access. That is not needed if you create your own project.
    • Oct 02 2016 | 8:15 pm
      Thank you! I truly appreciate your help. And I'm having a great time working with the dp.kinect2 libraries.
    • May 07 2017 | 2:42 pm
      Hey Carrie !
      Can you explain me how your friend was able to work with boids in max 7 ?? I am having a hard time to figure out how to load the object . I tried to use max in 32bits and nothing, i have the boids objects in my librarie and it seems ok, but when i open the patch, it´s like you said, the object doesnt load it appears always orange. So, can you tell me how your friend did it ??
    • May 08 2017 | 3:59 pm