patch repositories?

thats really disappointing, with thousands of people all using max-msp;
why reinvent the wheel over and over again...?!?!
:/

While looking at other people's patches can be very helpful, too many
examples can sometimes stifle creative thinking. I'm teaching a class
in MaxMSP and spend a good deal of time trying to get my students to
think of objects in an abstract sense, rather than just the examples
they've seen. For example, consider a synthesizer that comes with 5000
preset sounds. Most people simply won't bother making their own
sounds. I think example patches are great touchstones, but I think
it's much more important for people to develop their own style and
processes. I generally prefer not to give people fully-realized
patches because it limits their imagination. I would much rather give
the germ of the idea, and let them run with it, so that they come up
with something that is their own.

I do agree that there should be certain things that are standardized in
Max. A really decent (no offense intended to anyone) reverb that came
with Max, much like the omx objects, would be really great. That being
said, there are often many, many ways to solve a problem in Max, and
different ones will be appropriate in different contexts. (bearing in
mind issues such as speed, scaleability, flexibility, elegance, etc.)
Oftentimes, I've learned more by reinventing the wheel rather than
using something off-the-shelf, and in building that wheel, I've stuck
in some square parts where there should have been round ones, and
gotten some really interesting sounds that set me off on a completely
different path that I probably wouldn't have thought of outside of that
context. For instance, try throwing kink~ into the read heads of a
pitchshifter...

The one lesson I keep (re)learning in Max is that monolithic solutions
(e.g. the perfect mixer, multitap delay, etc. that does everything)
rarely exist because they can't anticipate all the possible ways they
can be used, and that, for me at least, it's often more interesting to
put flawed but interesting processes together. My patches are
constantly changing and reflect my evolving thoughts about how to
organize processes. While I'm happy to show them to people, I'm
ultimately writing music and not software, so the documentation is what
I need, rather than enterprise-level. (though there are many of us who
are writing software) As an example, Pattr is a really great and
amazing preset system, but there are still lots of feature requests for
it because we all use it in slightly different ways. (what should be
the scope of a preset system?) Similarly, I've seen patches that tried
to be the universal systems for creating pieces, and, more often than
not, they lack character. Of course, these are just my opinions.

I think that if we could have a dependency tracker in the build
dialogue, that might provide a better way of encapsulating patches for
online distribution.

Peter McCulloch

Thanks Peter for your input.

The whole objective in teaching is to pass on ones mistakes and
successes onto another; teaching is also about efficiency: how can I
pass on more information to new generations faster and more efficiently
than I had to learn?

If I make all my students constantly build things from scratch, its good
for the theory, but its bad for any kind of real world application of
your skills. Not only that, but if I always build things on my own; i
will continually make the same mistakes, over and over.

Its like teaching an artist to paint with a few lessons, and then
telling them they can't look at any other artists paintings anymore,
because they might start copying them and therefore make the same bad
paintings their peers are making...?????

I am not looking for example because i don't know how to use max, i'm
looking for examples so I can build a complex architecture system using
modular components, in a reasonable amount of time. Since I need many
standard component components, it would seem logical that these already
exist for me to copy, integrate and modify to fit my architectural
requirements - but somehow in max/msp land; these do not exist
publicly... [i am starting to discover].

Are people paranoid about their work? People seriously need to become
less possessive about their "creations", or we all suffer. Art doesn't
thrive in a cupboard.

While I am no fan of Reason, the software does come with a community
website with many-many patches to download and examine... th benefit of
this platform is huge, why would max/msp users be except from such benefits?

Well, since i'm a max user, it's a subject we have deal with a thousands
times

pulse wrote:
> Thanks Peter for your input.
>
> The whole objective in teaching is to pass on ones mistakes and
> successes onto another; teaching is also about efficiency: how can I
> pass on more information to new generations faster and more
> efficiently than I had to learn?
>
> If I make all my students constantly build things from scratch, its
> good for the theory, but its bad for any kind of real world
> application of your skills. Not only that, but if I always build
> things on my own; i will continually make the same mistakes, over and
> over.
No, because mistakes don't allow anything to work in max. So you always
have to struggle yourself to get it right, and, meanwhile, your
knowledge increases drasticaly. In my case, i'm on one of the simpliest
things to do with max (a polyphonic sample player) since a long time,
while i've already achieved much more complex engines ! Yes, a few
example patches would help, but i would have to rewrite them all on my
own anyway...
>
> Its like teaching an artist to paint with a few lessons, and then
> telling them they can't look at any other artists paintings anymore,
> because they might start copying them and therefore make the same bad
> paintings their peers are making...?????
Painting is a result. Max is a way to paint.
>
> I am not looking for example because i don't know how to use max, i'm
> looking for examples so I can build a complex architecture system
> using modular components, in a reasonable amount of time. Since I need
> many standard component components, it would seem logical that these
> already exist for me to copy, integrate and modify to fit my
> architectural requirements -
Buy Native Instrument's Reaktor instead, really !
> but somehow in max/msp land; these do not exist publicly... [i am
> starting to discover].
>
> Are people paranoid about their work? People seriously need to become
> less possessive about their "creations", or we all suffer. Art doesn't
> thrive in a cupboard.
When i think about all the time given by all the list members for this
kind of gratification, lord, i swear i could throw you a glass of bear
(not wine, it's hard to clean off shirts with) just to wake up your mind.
Everybody here share a lot of things without asking money for. Think
this list is the place where i learned max, without the need of any kind
of "classical" teaching. Just browse this week's messages, you'll find a
lot of things : patcher's ideas, externals, abstract solutions... Go to
maxobjects.com, thanks Mathieu and Ninh for the FREE work, check all
these objects, abstractions and classes here, for god's sake !!!!!!!!!!
Made with the free time of teachers, students, artists and much more.
Stop me i'm gonna kill someone...
>
> While I am no fan of Reason, the software does come with a community
> website with many-many patches to download and examine... th benefit
> of this platform is huge, why would max/msp users be except from such
> benefits?
One more time : go buy Reaktor and you'll be granted to access the
community library anytime you want.
>

> While I am no fan of Reason, the software does come with a community
> website with many-many patches to download and examine... th benefit of
> this platform is huge, why would max/msp users be except from such
> benefits?

arg! i mean to say "reaktor", no "reason"; sorry 'bout the typo.

> One more time : go buy Reaktor and you'll be granted to access the
> community library anytime you want.

please don't misunderstand, i speak from frustration, not anger. i
really love max, not reaktor. i realize there is a lot of resources out
there to building your own patches and excellent externals, this is not
an issue - its something i praise. It's just surprising that patches are
not readily available in any significant form - and I can't see why this
is such a horrible thing to ask, I can't see why "more information" is
worse than "less..."

Anyways, enough said,

with kind,

Seb.

I'm not sure it is that surprising in fact. On the contrary of
Reaktor library, for example, I think that a lot of patches are built
for one's particular project. And I'm quite sure some of those patch
wouldn't have any sense outside of the projects (if they can work at
all in some cases). There are still some part of patches that can be
useful in any context, but that's what that is shared on the list. I
understand it can be frustrating for one's curiosity but I'm sure
things are better this way, to learn. At least they are for me.

Just my 2 cents.

Julien;

PS: wow. My English is awful on this post. :)

On Mar 17, 2006, at 8:37 AM, pulse wrote:
> It's just surprising that patches are
> not readily available in any significant form

I think you want one thing but are saying something else. There are
*tons* of patches, objects, abstractions, art, etc out there. It is
simply de-centralized. There is not one web site to log onto and
download from.

It's out there, you just have to do more digging. And never hesitate
to drop some one a note on the list. 9 times out of 10 they will
send you the patch or code. Heck, even cycling74 will send you
certain bits of source if ask nicely and have a valid reason.

Max is interactive in a variety of ways. It's not just about the UI.
Hey, put that on the next poster. :)

-----
Nathan Wolek
nw@nathanwolek.com
http://www.nathanwolek.com