Jean-Michel Dumas

having a forum is nice. i guess. but please, when responding on the 

forum try to always quote, or else people that only use the mailing list 

like me get confused as to what the reply is referring to exactly. and 

please keep the discussion technical as William Neal elegantly pointed 

the noise on this list is getting louder and louder (sorry for my own 

dBs).. and i don't have enough time to play "match the reply with the 

having a forum is nice. i guess. but please, when responding on the 
forum try to always quote, or else people that only use the mailing list 
like me get confused as to what the reply is referring to exactly. and 
please keep the discussion technical as William Neal elegantly pointed 
out earlier.

the noise on this list is getting louder and louder (sorry for my own 
dBs).. and i don't have enough time to play "match the reply with the 
correct sentence". thanks.

pledge-for-us-poor-old-mailing-list-users

I really think the forum should be a completely separate entity.

It just really begs people to react differently, ie: posting more 

frequently somewhat useless replies to messages because its just a 

web-board, and not realizing that thousands of other users get the 

emails, as mentioned earlier on the list - this makes the forum a 

burden on the mailing list members. One might agree that these are 

two different mediums, and fundamentally require a different approach 

to moderating, posting questions, giving answers and general 

behaviour and (net) etiquette, and I think its this that is bothering 

some list members. Mailing lists just bring in a different type of 

crowd, and spur different posting behaviors, afaict?

I also know im adding to the signal/noise by posting this, and that 

most likely nothing will change (or perhaps should change), but I 

think the mailing is already significantly different just due to the 

additions of the forum. But anyway, lets just get back to Max.

It just really begs people to react differently, ie: posting more  
frequently somewhat useless replies to messages because its just a  
web-board, and not realizing that thousands of other users get the  
emails, as mentioned earlier on the list - this makes the forum a  
burden on the mailing list members. One might agree that these are  
two different mediums, and fundamentally require a different approach  
to moderating, posting questions, giving answers and general  
behaviour and (net) etiquette, and I think its this that is bothering  
some list members. Mailing lists just bring in a different type of  
crowd, and spur different posting behaviors, afaict?

I also know im adding to the signal/noise by posting this, and that  
most likely nothing will change (or perhaps should change), but I  
think the mailing is already significantly different just due to the  
additions of the forum. But anyway, lets just get back to Max.

On Jan 31, 2006, at 10:09 PM, Jean-Michel Dumas wrote:

> hi all, i rarely post, but i'm annoyed.

> having a forum is nice. i guess. but please, when responding on the 

> forum try to always quote, or else people that only use the mailing 

> list like me get confused as to what the reply is referring to 

This is exactly what I said the moment I found out about this. I've 

seen this same thing happen to other mailing lists that added forums 

or the other way around -- this is one of the most annoying problems. 

One list even reverted because it drove everyone so mad.

For an issue that solely impacts the community, there wasn't much 

community discussion going into this. Like Vade, I realize this is 

mostly noise at this point, and that Cycling is going to do what they 

want anyway. Still, if there is a shot of reverting, I can't help but 

take a stab at it. I'd encourage others to (perhaps off list) voice 

their concerns if they have any. If enough people don't like it, it 

is trivial to deactivate the forums or disconnect the forum and list.

What about a vote to kill/disconnect the forum? I realize half the 

people here will vote to keep the forums just to spite me now... but 

> hi all, i rarely post, but i'm annoyed.
>
> having a forum is nice. i guess. but please, when responding on the  
> forum try to always quote, or else people that only use the mailing  
> list like me get confused as to what the reply is referring to  
> exactly.

This is exactly what I said the moment I found out about this. I've  
seen this same thing happen to other mailing lists that added forums  
or the other way around -- this is one of the most annoying problems.  
One list even reverted because it drove everyone so mad.

For an issue that solely impacts the community, there wasn't much  
community discussion going into this. Like Vade, I realize this is  
mostly noise at this point, and that Cycling is going to do what they  
want anyway. Still, if there is a shot of reverting, I can't help but  
take a stab at it. I'd encourage others to (perhaps off list) voice  
their concerns if they have any. If enough people don't like it, it  
is trivial to deactivate the forums or disconnect the forum and list.

What about a vote to kill/disconnect the forum? I realize half the  
people here will vote to keep the forums just to spite me now... but  
still. :-)

Kill the forum! (shouted the luddite oldtimer) Bring back the digest!

Op 1-feb-2006, om 5:24 heeft John Nowak het volgende geschreven:

> On Jan 31, 2006, at 10:09 PM, Jean-Michel Dumas wrote:

>> hi all, i rarely post, but i'm annoyed.

>> having a forum is nice. i guess. but please, when responding on 

>> the forum try to always quote, or else people that only use the 

>> mailing list like me get confused as to what the reply is 

> This is exactly what I said the moment I found out about this. I've 

> seen this same thing happen to other mailing lists that added 

> forums or the other way around -- this is one of the most annoying 

> problems. One list even reverted because it drove everyone so mad.

> For an issue that solely impacts the community, there wasn't much 

> community discussion going into this. Like Vade, I realize this is 

> mostly noise at this point, and that Cycling is going to do what 

> they want anyway. Still, if there is a shot of reverting, I can't 

> help but take a stab at it. I'd encourage others to (perhaps off 

> list) voice their concerns if they have any. If enough people don't 

> like it, it is trivial to deactivate the forums or disconnect the 

> What about a vote to kill/disconnect the forum? I realize half the 

> people here will vote to keep the forums just to spite me now... 

>
> On Jan 31, 2006, at 10:09 PM, Jean-Michel Dumas wrote:
>
>> hi all, i rarely post, but i'm annoyed.
>>
>> having a forum is nice. i guess. but please, when responding on  
>> the forum try to always quote, or else people that only use the  
>> mailing list like me get confused as to what the reply is  
>> referring to exactly.
>
> This is exactly what I said the moment I found out about this. I've  
> seen this same thing happen to other mailing lists that added  
> forums or the other way around -- this is one of the most annoying  
> problems. One list even reverted because it drove everyone so mad.
>
> For an issue that solely impacts the community, there wasn't much  
> community discussion going into this. Like Vade, I realize this is  
> mostly noise at this point, and that Cycling is going to do what  
> they want anyway. Still, if there is a shot of reverting, I can't  
> help but take a stab at it. I'd encourage others to (perhaps off  
> list) voice their concerns if they have any. If enough people don't  
> like it, it is trivial to deactivate the forums or disconnect the  
> forum and list.
>
> What about a vote to kill/disconnect the forum? I realize half the  
> people here will vote to keep the forums just to spite me now...  
> but still. :-)
>


Seconded, unless clear forum guidelines are stated and

Seconded, unless clear forum guidelines are stated and
enforced by a beneficent dictator.


I really think the flow of the list is destroyed by the forum.

Similarly, a forum has advantages over a list.

For example, if a topic wants to head off in a direction, you can just 

ignore it by not following that subject (when you're not receiving mail 

I suggest that a traditional list remain.

And that the forums exist without a connection to that list.

That way the pedantic types can safely smoke cigars and sip from 

snifters of brandy, while the riff-raff outside tag buildings and learn 

The heady types won't have to put up with beginner questions, (unless 

they go slumming) and beginning users won't have to get caned everytime 

If they do remain attached, I would suggest that the forums could 

contain a "beginning users" section and a "general discussion" section 

that don't actually post to any of the lists.

Honestly,
I can see both sides.
I really think the flow of the list is destroyed by the forum.
Similarly, a forum has advantages over a list.
For example, if a topic wants to head off in a direction, you can just 
ignore it by not following that subject (when you're not receiving mail 
every 5 seconds).

SO,
I suggest that a traditional list remain.
And that the forums exist without a connection to that list.
That way the pedantic types can safely smoke cigars and sip from 
snifters of brandy, while the riff-raff outside tag buildings and learn 
how to read manuals.

No great loss.
The heady types won't have to put up with beginner questions, (unless 
they go slumming) and beginning users won't have to get caned everytime 
they misquote Chaucer.

If they do remain attached, I would suggest that the forums could 
contain a "beginning users" section and a "general discussion" section 
that don't actually post to any of the lists.

> Seconded, unless clear forum guidelines are stated and

We are in the process of developing list/forum guidelines, that will be posted at the top of every forum, sent out with every list subscription and forum registration, and referred to within discussion/by private email as need dictates. All members of this community will be expected to read these and understand their responsibilities to the community.

These guidelines address these issues, and others, and will state expecations of behavior by members of this community.

We realize that change takes some adjustment, and that there will be growing pains. However, we don't feel that any of these issues are insurmountable.

It's everyone's responsibility to inform new members of our community what the mores and values are here. Don't underestimate the power that a friendly (and I stress *friendly*) reminder can do, via private email, to have an effect on a user's future behavior. If we take the time to communicate what's acceptable, and what's not, what is necessary and what is extraneous, we will overcome these problems.

If you haven't noticed, I've been going in and "cleaning up" the forums. I try to get to it once per day, but it's a time-consuming task. I know mailing list users have trouble following threads when users simply reply with quoting something relevant. However, mailing list users also make the forums hard to read (as well as the list!) when they quote an entire message (which itself has quoted another message, and so on) just to reply with a single sentence. It would be nice if mailing list users could please trim their replies to only what is relevant.

The bottom line is, our new system requires a wee bit of change from everyone, whether it's people who are used to forums or those who know mailing lists. The changes that are needed are good for the discussion irregardless of which format you choose to follow in.

I would ask that everyone please take ownership of their growing pains with this community. Endless complaining and whining do nothing to help, and only add to the problem.

Oh yeah, FWIW, I deleted the Lithium thread and contacted the thread starter about what's off-topic (but tangentially related), and what's off-topic, and disruptive. Disruptive behavior will not be tolerated.

> Seconded, unless clear forum guidelines are stated and
> enforced by a beneficent dictator.

We are in the process of developing list/forum guidelines, that will be posted at the top of every forum, sent out with every list subscription and forum registration, and referred to within discussion/by private email as need dictates. All members of this community will be expected to read these and understand their responsibilities to the community. 

We realize that change takes some adjustment, and that there will be growing pains. However, we don't feel that any of these issues are insurmountable. 

The bottom line is, our new system requires a wee bit of change from everyone, whether it's people who are used to forums or those who know mailing lists. The changes that are needed are good for the discussion irregardless of which format you choose to follow in. 

I would ask that everyone please take ownership of their growing pains with this community. Endless complaining and whining do nothing to help, and only add to the problem. 

Oh yeah, FWIW, I deleted the Lithium thread and contacted the thread starter about what's off-topic (but tangentially related), and what's off-topic, and disruptive. Disruptive behavior will not be tolerated.


We might need to teach the forum contributors to do it right. The post I 

am replying to at the moment is unlikely to be read by bine~ for 

example. (I just recall him to be the one who never uses quotes, and I 

never have any idea what he is answering to.)

Any annoyance has to be addressed individually which is an annoyance in 

P.S. It might be read by bine~, as I forward this thread to him directly...

Stefan Tiedje, Klanggestalter @ CCMIX ))))) @;-) > )) )) )

We might need to teach the forum contributors to do it right. The post I 
am replying to at the moment is unlikely to be read by bine~ for 
example. (I just recall him to be the one who never uses quotes, and I 
never have any idea what he is answering to.)

Any annoyance has to be addressed individually which is an annoyance in 
itself...

Stefan Tiedje, Klanggestalter @ CCMIX ))))) @;-) > )) )) )


personally, I feel as though there is tons AND TONS of focused 

potential energy on this list which really shouldn't be wasted. 

Which is why I'd suggest an off topic forum. this forum would put 

"OffTopic" in subject lines so naysayers could filter them out. I 

feel somewhat saddened by the fact that it's so hard to develop 

personal relationships here compared to the boards I've been on 

before due to the fact that its made of people I respect so much. I 

one thing is for sure. if you subscribe to this list, your going to 

have to sift. there's just no way around it.

personally, I feel as though there is tons AND TONS of focused  
potential energy on this list which really shouldn't be wasted.   
Which is why I'd suggest an off topic forum.  this forum would put  
"OffTopic" in subject lines so naysayers could filter them out.  I  
feel somewhat saddened by the fact that it's so hard to develop  
personal relationships here compared to the boards I've been on  
before due to the fact that its made of people I respect so much.  I  
LOVE YOU GUYS!

one thing is for sure.  if you subscribe to this list, your going to  
have to sift.  there's just no way around it.

.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .
Http://www.EstateSound.com
Http://ideasforstuff.blogspot.com
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .


I'd love a Max OT list. The Reaktor folks were so fed up with me a 

couple years back that they made an OT forum and made me moderator. 

Solved everyone's problem. Created a few new ones, sure, but they 

Yes -- A max-ot list. How about it Wally?

I'd love a Max OT list. The Reaktor folks were so fed up with me a  
couple years back that they made an OT forum and made me moderator.  
Solved everyone's problem. Created a few new ones, sure, but they  
were fun...

I absolutely agree with this.There's a coffee machine in every place 

where people works (office, college, mabe C74?). Give us an OT space, 

I absolutely agree with this.There's a coffee machine in every place 
where people works (office, college, mabe C74?). Give us an OT space, 
please.

pledge for us poor old mailing list users