Grizzle

Is there a way for me to send pitch information to an analogue oscillator without having to use MIDI pitch or 0-127 steps.

I use the Kenton Pro Solo for MIDI/CV conversion and I have made a sequencer in MAX but I don't like using quantized pitches. I have a quantizer in my modular so if I want I can use that. I thought of sending Pitch Bend but it only has a range of 12 semitones on the Kenton Pro Solo.

sending-pitch-to-analogue-osc

perhaps you should try sending CV directly by using an audio card with DC coupled audio outs (eg. motu 828 mk2)...

OK thanks I have the MOTU ultralite so I could try that. I'll hook it up to an oscilloscope and see if it sends DC coupled.

Has nobody on the list sent raw pitch information to a modular synth or does everybody use MIDI?

depends what you mean by raw pitch info... if it's CV, it's going to be dependent on the pitch voltage standard.

> Has nobody on the list sent raw pitch information to a modular synth

Midi is quantized by design, you definitely need a DA converter...

Grizzle schrieb:
> Has nobody on the list sent raw pitch information to a modular synth
> or does everybody use MIDI? 

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


OK Justin... I understand now. Just take the Kenton Pro Solo out of the loop and go straight from the outs on my soundcard.... well that would be just great. I have 8 outs on the MOTU so essentially that could be 8 CV sends...

On Jul 14, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Stefan Tiedje wrote:

> Midi is quantized by design, you definitely need a DA converter...

Which is also quantized to it's resolution.

MIDI notes + pitchbend can achieve pretty high resolution; seven bit 

resolution for the note, and 14 bit resolution from bend. If bend is 

set to one semitone, and is sent as 14 bit bend information, pretty 

MIDI's temporal resolution, on the other hand, can be somewhat lacking.

On Jul 14, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Stefan Tiedje wrote:
> Midi is quantized by design, you definitely need a DA converter...

MIDI notes + pitchbend can achieve pretty high resolution; seven bit  
resolution for the note, and 14 bit resolution from bend. If bend is  
set to one semitone, and is sent as 14 bit bend information, pretty  
high resolution can be had.

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

Quote: Grizzle wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 22:41

----------------------------------------------------

> OK Justin... I understand now. Just take the Kenton Pro Solo out of the loop and go straight from the outs on my soundcard.... well that would be just great. I have 8 outs on the MOTU so essentially that could be 8 CV sends...

that's exactly what i mean! only problem is that analog circuits are built to different voltage standards... so you need to bear that in mind, cos the voltage output of the sound card might not match up to the analog electronics. this could lead to hardware damage, so proceed carefully!

it's also worth bearing in mind that most CV inputs use electronics to smooth out the input signals (slew rate), so sending a rect~ @ 800hz might not provide the FM sound you were after... YMMV depending on the synth manufacturer.

Quote: Grizzle wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 22:41
----------------------------------------------------
> OK Justin... I understand now. Just take the Kenton Pro Solo out of the loop and go straight from the outs on my soundcard.... well that would be just great. I have 8 outs on the MOTU so essentially that could be 8 CV sends...
>
> Ok... I'll try that and come back. 
----------------------------------------------------

that's exactly what i mean! only problem is that analog circuits are built to different voltage standards... so you need to bear that in mind, cos the voltage output of the sound card might not match up to the analog electronics. this could lead to hardware damage, so proceed carefully! 

i would be careful if I were you, MOTU have advised people against it.

http://www.nononancy.com/cvcontrol/index.html

I would like to see a USB OSC to CV convertor for controlling analog synths with high resolution. Or an audio interface designed for this purpose. Anyone aware of such a thing?

See here http://www.nononancy.com/cvcontrol/index.html

I always have to put my support in every time I see one of these threads. A USB to CV converter would be brilliant and end my quest for an alternative to MIDI/CV once and for all. Even better would be a way to treat sampled CV as an audio file, i.e., CV to USB, and manipulate it as such.

yes, i agree...a properly designed USB CV would be really good, and no doubt safer than [ab]using a motu 828.

yes, i agree...a properly designed USB  CV would be really good, and no doubt safer than [ab]using a motu 828.

> yes, i agree...a properly designed USB CV would be really good, and no doubt safer than [ab]using a motu 828.

What would be the specs people are looking for in max->cv kit?

-2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?

And what about resolution? would 10bit suffice?

^^^^ I think the above shows why we aren't seeing a lot of these 

justin skrev:
> yes, i agree...a properly designed USB  CV would be really good, and no doubt safer than [ab]using a motu 828.
>
What would be the specs people are looking for in max->cv kit?
0-5v digital is a given, for triggers.

But what about control voltages?
-2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?
+-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?

^^^^ I think the above shows why we aren't seeing a lot of these 
products, perhaps?

Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 09:27

> What would be the specs people are looking for in max->cv kit?

> -2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?

> +-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?

Given that old Moog & Buchla systems were 1v/octave for the oscillators (if I'm not mistaken - it's been a while) it would be nice to have a 10 octave range, i.e. 0-10v.

On the other hand, some sort of switchable range (hardware or software) would make it more flexible.

> And what about resolution? would 10bit suffice?

I'd rather see at least a 16 bit resolution for pitch and amplitude signals.

Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 09:27
----------------------------------------------------
> What would be the specs people are looking for in max->cv kit?
> 0-5v digital is a given, for triggers.
>
> But what about control voltages?
> -2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?
> +-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?

>
> And what about resolution? would 10bit suffice?

I'd rather see at least a 16 bit resolution for pitch and amplitude signals.


Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 16:27

> ^^^^ I think the above shows why we aren't seeing a lot of these 

perhaps one can make a system which could switch between the most common voltage ranges (doepfer / moog / korg).

16 bit would be nice, and a decent number of outlets (>=8). i have found that midi 2 cv kits are a bit limiting in terms of outlets, admittedly i only bought the cheapo doepfer box...

Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 16:27
----------------------------------------------------
> ^^^^ I think the above shows why we aren't seeing a lot of these 
> products, perhaps?
>
> Andreas.
----------------------------------------------------

On Jul 15, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:

There are many devices which need a 10v gate/trigger. The analog synth 

world has had many schemes for gating/triggering. There really isn't 

I would like to see 0-10v, but I can imagine needing up to -10v to10v 

For pitch, I don't think 10 bit resolution is enough.

Agreed, and we haven't even gotten into the question of temporal 

> What would be the specs people are looking for in max->cv kit?
> 0-5v digital is a given, for triggers.

There are many devices which need a 10v gate/trigger. The analog synth  
world has had many schemes for gating/triggering. There really isn't  
much of a standard.

> But what about control voltages?
> -2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?
> +-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?

I would like to see 0-10v, but I can imagine needing up to -10v to10v  
for some systems.

> ^^^^ I think the above shows why we aren't seeing a lot of these  
> products, perhaps?

Agreed, and we haven't even gotten into the question of temporal  
resolution.

The standard is 1V/Octave, originally introduced by Moog...

Certainly not, especially for pitch, even Midi uses 14-bit...

Andreas Wetterberg schrieb:
> But what about control voltages?
> -2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?
> +-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?

The standard is 1V/Octave, originally introduced by Moog...
Except for Korg, most synths do that.

> On Jul 15, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:

>> What would be the specs people are looking for in max->cv kit?

>> 0-5v digital is a given, for triggers.

> There are many devices which need a 10v gate/trigger. The analog synth 

> world has had many schemes for gating/triggering. There really isn't 

You're right Chris. And I really value your opinion on this - thanks.

>> -2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?

>> +-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?

> I would like to see 0-10v, but I can imagine needing up to -10v to10v 

And then we're in the realm of a do-it-all unit. Those are usually for 

>> And what about resolution? would 10bit suffice?

> For pitch, I don't think 10 bit resolution is enough.

Me neither, at this point. 12bit is low, too, even, but might be "enough".

>> ^^^^ I think the above shows why we aren't seeing a lot of these 

> Agreed, and we haven't even gotten into the question of temporal 

Thanks again for your insights, Chris. Temporal resolution is important 

if we want DCOs directly from the computer, doing FM and the like. 

The "do-it-all" unit is essentially a multi-out dc-coupled hi voltage 

audio interface. That would be quite expensive to develop, and doing so 

One approach would be a bank of envelope followers with a gain stage - 

just hook up your regular audio interface and start following ;)

The downside to that would be a certain amount of slew, but in most 

applications it would work well - envelopes, lfos, pitch. Thoughts?

Chris Muir skrev:
> On Jul 15, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:
>> What would be the specs people are looking for in max->cv kit?
>> 0-5v digital is a given, for triggers.
> There are many devices which need a 10v gate/trigger. The analog synth 
> world has had many schemes for gating/triggering. There really isn't 
> much of a standard.
You're right Chris. And I really value your opinion on this - thanks.
>> But what about control voltages?
>> -2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?
>> +-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?
> I would like to see 0-10v, but I can imagine needing up to -10v to10v 
> for some systems.
And then we're in the realm of a do-it-all unit. Those are usually for 
labs ;)
>> And what about resolution? would 10bit suffice?
> For pitch, I don't think 10 bit resolution is enough.
Me neither, at this point. 12bit is low, too, even, but might be "enough".
>> ^^^^ I think the above shows why we aren't seeing a lot of these 
>> products, perhaps?
> Agreed, and we haven't even gotten into the question of temporal 
> resolution.
Thanks again for your insights, Chris. Temporal resolution is important 
if we want DCOs directly from the computer, doing FM and the like. 
Again, the do-it-all.

The "do-it-all" unit is essentially a multi-out dc-coupled hi voltage 
audio interface. That would be quite expensive to develop, and doing so 
would also be quite redundant.

One approach would be a bank of envelope followers with a gain stage - 
just hook up your regular audio interface and start following ;)
The downside to that would be a certain amount of slew, but in most 
applications it would work well - envelopes, lfos, pitch. Thoughts?

> The standard is 1V/Octave, originally introduced by Moog...

yes, but that speaks to the resolution. In the above I am talking about 

> Certainly not, especially for pitch, even Midi uses 14-bit... 

To be fair plain midi is 7-bit. The problem is that it doesn't seem to 

be a unit that people will accept doesn't go whole hog on everything - 

it has to be able to do and withstand everything you throw at it.

I'll ask my engineer colleagues whether a 16-output 16bit unit can be 

I'm afraid I already know the answer there...

Stefan Tiedje skrev:
> Andreas Wetterberg schrieb:
>> But what about control voltages?
>> -2.5v -> +2.5v or 0v -> +8v? Even wider range?
>> +-5v, like the VCOs of a doepfer system?
> The standard is 1V/Octave, originally introduced by Moog...
> Except for Korg, most synths do that.
yes, but that speaks to the resolution. In the above I am talking about 
range, ie absolute voltages.
>> And what about resolution? would 10bit suffice?
> Certainly not, especially for pitch, even Midi uses 14-bit... 
To be fair plain midi is 7-bit. The problem is that it doesn't seem to 
be a unit that people will accept doesn't go whole hog on everything - 
it has to be able to do and withstand everything you throw at it.

I'll ask my engineer colleagues whether a 16-output 16bit unit can be 
built within reason.

On Jul 15, 2008, at 8:42 AM, smill wrote:

> Given that old Moog & Buchla systems were 1v/octave for the 

> oscillators (if I'm not mistaken - it's been a while) it would be 

> nice to have a 10 octave range, i.e. 0-10v.

Buchla has never been 1v. / octave. Buchla is .1v / semitone, or 1.2v 

On Jul 15, 2008, at 8:42 AM, smill wrote:
> Given that old Moog & Buchla systems were 1v/octave for the  
> oscillators (if I'm not mistaken - it's been a while) it would be  
> nice to have a 10 octave range, i.e. 0-10v.

Buchla has never been 1v. / octave. Buchla is .1v / semitone, or 1.2v  
per octave.

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 20:33

> On Jul 15, 2008, at 8:42 AM, smill wrote:

> > Given that old Moog & Buchla systems were 1v/octave for the 

> > oscillators (if I'm not mistaken - it's been a while) it would be 

> > nice to have a 10 octave range, i.e. 0-10v.

> Buchla has never been 1v. / octave. Buchla is .1v / semitone, or 1.2v 

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 20:33
----------------------------------------------------
>
> On Jul 15, 2008, at 8:42 AM, smill wrote:
> > Given that old Moog & Buchla systems were 1v/octave for the  
> > oscillators (if I'm not mistaken - it's been a while) it would be  
> > nice to have a 10 octave range, i.e. 0-10v.
>
>
> Buchla has never been 1v. / octave. Buchla is .1v / semitone, or 1.2v  
> per octave.
>
> A simple scaling operation, though.
>
> -C
>
> Chris Muir
> cbm@well.com	
> http://www.xfade.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


Quote: oli larkin wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 08:05

> i would be careful if I were you, MOTU have advised people against it.

Anyone got a guess why MOTU says there will be a problem outputting DC voltages? Is that act alone enough to damage the unite or are they assuming high risk due to interfacing the 828 with other hardware combined with possibly faulty electronics?

Quote: oli larkin wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 08:05
----------------------------------------------------
> i would be careful if I were you, MOTU have advised people against it.
>
> See here http://www.nononancy.com/cvcontrol/index.html

Anyone got a guess why MOTU says there will be a problem outputting DC voltages?  Is that act alone enough to damage the unite or are they assuming high risk due to interfacing the 828 with other hardware combined with possibly faulty electronics?


Thought ye might be interested in this clip.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-6sv-u3fDw

It's a clip of a Plan B modular being controlled by MAX through the 828 MKII. It seems to work pretty well. No sign of his 828MKII blowing up...

The poster give a fairly good description as well.

It's a clip of a Plan B modular being controlled by MAX through the 828 MKII. It seems to work pretty well. No sign of his 828MKII blowing up... 

The poster give a fairly good description as well.


> Anyone got a guess why MOTU says there will be a problem outputting

> DC voltages? Is that act alone enough to damage the unite or are

> they assuming high risk due to interfacing the 828 with other

> hardware combined with possibly faulty electronics?

I guess it is because there will be a limit for the current. If you 

create a short circuit, it might (or will?) blow up the dac...

If your cv inputs have reasonable high impedance I don't see any problem...

Roth Michaels schrieb:
> Anyone got a guess why MOTU says there will be a problem outputting
> DC voltages?  Is that act alone enough to damage the unite or are
> they assuming high risk due to interfacing the 828 with other
> hardware combined with possibly faulty electronics? 

I guess it is because there will be a limit for the current. If you 
create a short circuit, it might (or will?) blow up the dac...
If your cv inputs have reasonable high impedance I don't see any problem...

i actually think they say that because they released Volta and dont want poeple to buy it.. an opinion only.

Sending Pitch to Analogue Osc