lists@lowfrequency.or

This post is sadly going to fall into the "here's some general 

problem that is repeatable but I can't make a good example"

I have made 3 different apps built out of Max/Jitter patches. When 

built, they will not run - double-clicking them makes the "app- 

starting-zoom-animation" on OS X, but nothing happens. No crash, no 

log files (system.log, console.log). This is on 3 separate computers 

running 1.6b2. On one, the app sometimes starts, especially if you 

So what I'm looking for is some advice on how to begin to debug these 

things. How can I tell what might have been missing, or gone wrong, 

especially with no crash and no error reporting? And on 3 different 

machines running different OS X versions.

I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all 

sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not 

good. Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are 

inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in 

the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be 

with the other frameworks under the app structure?) And also having 

the default apppath return the path to the app itself (and not the 

MacOS folder) is a HUGE change, and also inconsistently documented 

(some parts still have the old info). Some things are much better (I 

like not having to manually add so many things to the app like 

jitlib) but can someone please please please consolidate all of the 

collective/application building info from the different documentation 

pdfs and put them into its own, consistent, centralized doc? The 

current organization is like an easter-egg hunt without the chocolate 

This post is sadly going to fall into the "here's some general  
problem that is repeatable but I can't make a good example"

I have made 3 different apps built out of Max/Jitter patches.  When  
built, they will not run - double-clicking them makes the "app- 
starting-zoom-animation" on OS X, but nothing happens.  No crash, no  
log files (system.log, console.log).  This is on 3 separate computers  
running 1.6b2.  On one, the app sometimes starts, especially if you  
run the actual Max patch first...

So what I'm looking for is some advice on how to begin to debug these  
things.  How can I tell what might have been missing, or gone wrong,  
especially with no crash and no error reporting?  And on 3 different  
machines running different OS X versions.

I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all  
sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not  
good.  Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are  
inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in  
the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be  
with the other frameworks under the app structure?)  And also having  
the default apppath return the path to the app itself (and not the  
MacOS folder) is a HUGE change, and also inconsistently documented  
(some parts still have the old info).  Some things are much better (I  
like not having to manually add so many things to the app like  
jitlib) but can someone please please please consolidate all of the  
collective/application building info from the different documentation  
pdfs and put them into its own, consistent, centralized doc?  The  
current organization is like an easter-egg hunt without the chocolate  
prizes.

apps-built-on-os-x-dont-run

> I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all 

> sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not 

> good. Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are 

> inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in 

> the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be 

> with the other frameworks under the app structure?)

If you can provide me with a clear example of something that does not work as the documents describe and a pointer to what is incorrect, I'll make sure that it's fixed. Fair enough?

> I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all  
> sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not  
> good.  Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are  
> inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in  
> the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be  
> with the other frameworks under the app structure?)  

If you can provide me with a clear example of something that does not work as the documents describe and a pointer to what is incorrect, I'll make sure that it's fixed. Fair enough?


Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 15 May 2007 14:42

----------------------------------------------------

> > I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all 

> > sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not 

> > good. Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are 

> > inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in 

> > the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be 

> > with the other frameworks under the app structure?) 

> If you can provide me with a clear example of something that does not work as the documents describe and a pointer to what is incorrect, I'll make sure that it's fixed. Fair enough?

I don't see that the placement of the cg.framework is discussed anywhere in Max46Topics.pdf. A reference to Appendix D in the Jitter Tutorial would be helpful (or a JitterTopics document). It is a little counterintuitive to put that framework somewhere other than the frameworks folder, but that is not a documentation issue.

After my first attempt to build a standalone using shaders failed, I looked at step 2 of the "Steps for Building Collectives" in Max46Topics.pdf. Reading lines like:

"Besides the externals and subpatches which are included automatically, there may be other files used by your top-level patch(es). Add any other necessary files to your collective by clicking on the Include File... button..."

made me think that adding my shader files this way would be a good idea. Not so.

While I did find the correct info by searching the forum, I think that I am not the only one to have to go through a trial-and-error process to figure out how to build applications. Other things:

On page 19, there is a warning not to rename your .mxf file in the standalone. This should also warn against renaming the actual standalone file, which is probably a more common problem.

This "•error: *~: No such object" could be a little offputting to someone who hadn't been using Max so long.

Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 15 May 2007 14:42
----------------------------------------------------
> > I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all  
> > sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not  
> > good.  Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are  
> > inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in  
> > the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be  
> > with the other frameworks under the app structure?)  
>
> If you can provide me with a clear example of something that does not work as the documents describe and a pointer to what is incorrect, I'll make sure that it's fixed. Fair enough?
----------------------------------------------------

I don't see that the placement of the cg.framework is discussed anywhere in Max46Topics.pdf.  A reference to Appendix D in the Jitter Tutorial would be helpful (or a JitterTopics document).  It is a little counterintuitive to put that framework somewhere other than the frameworks folder, but that is not a documentation issue.

made me think that adding my shader files this way would be a good idea.  Not so. 

On page 19, there is a warning not to rename your .mxf file in the standalone.  This should also warn against renaming the actual standalone file, which is probably a more common problem.

Thank you, Michael. I have added text to the Max Topics document which, I hope, clarifies your concerns, and also have added a reference to Appendix D of the Jitter Tutorial.

On May 16, 2007, at 12:12 AM, mzed wrote:

> Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 15 May 2007 14:42

> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all

>>> sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not

>>> good. Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are

>>> inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in

>>> the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be

>>> with the other frameworks under the app structure?)

>> If you can provide me with a clear example of something that does 

>> not work as the documents describe and a pointer to what is 

>> incorrect, I'll make sure that it's fixed. Fair enough?

> I don't see that the placement of the cg.framework is discussed 

> anywhere in Max46Topics.pdf. A reference to Appendix D in the 

> Jitter Tutorial would be helpful (or a JitterTopics document). It 

> is a little counterintuitive to put that framework somewhere other 

> than the frameworks folder, but that is not a documentation issue.

I didn't mean that the Max46Topics.pdf discussed the cg.frameworks 

folder - that unfortunately was unclear from my post. But, can't you 

just put the framework in the Frameworks folder? I believe that 

worked for me, but I don't have any way of re-testing that right now.

As for some errors - JitterTutorial16.pdf on pg 534 still says to 

copy the jitlib to the standalone, at the bottom of the page, plus 

it refers to the MaxMSP 4.5 folder - same goes for pg. 533

I thought there were more, but that may be a simple case of paranoia 

cased by things not working under time pressure...

Now that mzed mentioned it, I might have renamed the app file itself 

to something slightly different (and if course I just now remember 

reading on the list that doing so is very bad...) A warning against 

that should definitely be in the docs somewhere.

While we're on the subject of trial-and-error, it would also be handy 

to have some info in the app/collective section about how to include 

externals and patches that are loaded via javascript - these also 

need to be included in the collective via the collective editor, and 

NOT actually copied to any of the subfolders of the app itself.

Also, what about the xml files generated by pattrstorage? What's the 

recommended way of handling them? What happens when a pattrstorage 

object is loaded in an app (e.g. where does it retrieve its client 

data from)? Where does a pattrstorage look for its XML file? Is it 

bad form to put it into the collective? What happens the XML file is 

stored in the collective? Or is it automagically read from the 

application's subdirectory if I include the XML file in there?

>
> Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 15 May 2007 14:42
> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> I was having a great time building apps in 4.5.7, now things are all
>>> sorts of different, and I hate to say it but the docs are really not
>>> good.  Some of the docs (the Jitter Manual) tell you things that are
>>> inconsistent with the Max docs - and sometimes wrong, I'd say, as in
>>> the case of where to put the Cg framework files (shouldn't they be
>>> with the other frameworks under the app structure?)
>>
>> If you can provide me with a clear example of something that does  
>> not work as the documents describe and a pointer to what is  
>> incorrect, I'll make sure that it's fixed. Fair enough?
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't see that the placement of the cg.framework is discussed  
> anywhere in Max46Topics.pdf.  A reference to Appendix D in the  
> Jitter Tutorial would be helpful (or a JitterTopics document).  It  
> is a little counterintuitive to put that framework somewhere other  
> than the frameworks folder, but that is not a documentation issue.

I didn't mean that the Max46Topics.pdf discussed the cg.frameworks  
folder - that unfortunately was unclear from my post.  But, can't you  
just put the framework in the Frameworks folder?  I believe that  
worked for me, but I don't have any way of re-testing that right now.

As for some errors - JitterTutorial16.pdf on pg 534 still says to  
copy the  jitlib to the standalone, at the bottom of the page, plus  
it refers to the MaxMSP 4.5 folder - same goes for pg. 533

I thought there were more, but that may be a simple case of paranoia  
cased by things not working under time pressure...

Now that mzed mentioned it, I might have renamed the app file itself  
to something slightly different (and if course I just now remember  
reading on the list that doing so is very bad...)  A warning against  
that should definitely be in the docs somewhere.

While we're on the subject of trial-and-error, it would also be handy  
to have some info in the app/collective section about how to include  
externals and patches that are loaded via javascript - these also  
need to be included in the collective via the collective editor, and  
NOT actually copied to any of the subfolders of the app itself.

Also, what about the xml files generated by pattrstorage? What's the  
recommended way of handling them?  What happens when a pattrstorage  
object is loaded in an app (e.g. where does it retrieve its client  
data from)?  Where does a pattrstorage look for its XML file?  Is it  
bad form to put it into the collective? What happens the XML file is  
stored in the collective?  Or is it automagically read from the  
application's subdirectory if I include the XML file in there?

Apps built on OS X don't run?