Nick Donovan

Fairly new to Max I'm afraid but came across this incredible patch and would very much like to be able to change the drum samples used. This said, a fellow max enthusiast suggested that the drums heard are not samples but generated sounds from max itself.

If this is so is there any way/ part of the patch that can be located that will allow me to change the patterns of the drums or generate new sounds..

I would very much like a patch like this that can create drum loops where the tempo and patterns can be altered. Anyone suggest a different patch/ paste one in?

Here is the patch anyway:(I hope I do this right)

Fairly new to Max I'm afraid but came across this incredible patch and would very much like to be able to change the drum samples used. This said, a fellow max enthusiast suggested that the drums heard are not samples but generated sounds from max itself.
If this is so is there any way/ part of the patch that can be located that will allow me to change the patterns of the drums or generate new sounds..

Here is the patch anyway:(I hope I do this right)


autecre-patch-mystery

Dunno whether this was intentially funny or not, but it made my day nonetheless.

Want to modify the patch? Spend some quality time learning Max and it'll be easy as pie. You've even got something to figure out as you're learning, which is great.

I am learning max, but this is way ahead of my level. Wanting some heads up on whats going on sub patch wise. Not the most useful reply tbh

The patch you pasted didn't open anything but a comment box for me, so I can't really direct you.

Don't get frustrated with MAX, there is a bit of a learning curve (and generally speaking, people are helpful here). You will find it much easier with a specific task in mind, for example, as you've described, if you're looking to change the patterns, then you'll have to figure out where the patterns are generated. Along the way, you'll learn so much.

Anyway, if you could try again to upload this patch, I'd be happy to look at it to help you figure out where to begin your search.

Don't get frustrated with MAX, there is a bit of a learning curve (and generally speaking, people are helpful here).  You will find it much easier with a specific task in mind, for example, as you've described, if you're looking to change the patterns, then you'll have to figure out where the patterns are generated.  Along the way, you'll learn so much.

Ah. Then the usual Max forum stuff applies - you'll get a lot better answers to your grovels iff'n you ask more specific questions about the patch (the one you didn't actually post). If it's a part of a patch you're modifying, show people what you're doing, then ask your question, etc. It's a general trueism that you're a lot more likely to get answers to questions that suggest you're actually doing some work or making a good attempt to understand something instead of asking some equivalent of "Can you do this for me for free?" Also, if something doesn't make sense or is "above your level", tell us *why* it doesn't make sense to you.

It could be that you're unfamiliar with the way that messages are sent throughout the patch.

It's possible that you don't understand how subpatches interact.

It's possible that... etc. The list of "It's possibles" run the gamut from "I'm not sure about how the FM units are preset...." to "I don't know how to read a Max patch...." and everything betwixt and between.

Unless you're more specific, we're playing 20 questions here. In many cases, the specific bits you don't understand may be described pretty clearly in a tutorial or a thread on the Max list, and spending a little time with that will be of some assistance. But there's nothing we can glean from what you've said thus far that's of much use.

Want better answers? Ask better questions.

Ah. Then the usual Max forum stuff applies - you'll get a lot better answers to your grovels iff'n you ask more specific questions about the patch (the one you didn't actually post). If it's a part of a patch you're modifying, show people what you're doing, then ask your question, etc. It's a general trueism that you're a lot more likely to get answers to questions that suggest you're actually doing some work or making a good attempt to understand something instead of asking some equivalent of "Can you do this for me for free?" Also, if something doesn't make sense or is "above your level", tell us *why* it doesn't make sense to you. 

Well, one pretty obvious thing from looking at the patch is that there's a bit of good luck for you. One hunk of the patch that shows up all over the place is grabbed straight from the MSP tutorials (MSP tutorial 11 runs down what the messages you're getting from the top level patch are doing, and MSP tutorial 18 runs down how you can map data into that patch - in a generalized way, anyhow). If you know what's going on there then you can certainly tell what the big bad upper part of the patch is sending out and why it's doing that (hint: the FM patch is getting all kinds of data that you probably don't need if you just want to map a dumbo drumbox into it). If you understand the FM patch, you'll know what you DON'T need. However, a good deal of what makes the patch interesting involves state change in the FM stuff, so beware).

Gregory you must be used to this by now. Not everyone really wants to know what is going on in a patch, some just want to copy what others have done with it.

I think you are in danger of alienating a large group of potential customers with your attitude. Don't get me wrong, I can completely understand it, but I am of the opinion that max could have a much larger audience if more people knew what you could do with it. How many times does this patch come up? And its not like its even recent!

I know there are very good examples, but to me they seem a little hidden away. Why not organise some sort of experiment where a few relatively mainstream artists are asked to create a track just using max? and then their subsequent patches are released to the community.

I say this because I was like this guy once, frustrated that I couldn't get things to work, and annoyed at people for not telling me. I'm at the point now where I know that to realise my ideas I have to put the effort in, but not everyone wants to go that deep.

I don't mean any offence, I say it because I really enjoy using the program and I know there are people would be kicking themselves if they knew what they were missing.

Gregory you must be used to this by now. Not everyone really wants to know what is going on in a patch, some just want to copy what others have done with it.  

A pretty fair response to this thread I feel. Gregory, thanks for taking a look any way and pointing me in the direction the relevant tutorials. Still, you have turned this thread into some tiring polemic of superiority and condescension i.e. the perfect way to alienate newcomers to an already exclusive practice. Most people are helpful here but some just use this board to boost their egos and throw their weight around. It's boring.

Mike, thanks for the suggestions. Your ideas seem pretty constructive and I would certainly want to be involved in those proposed experiments if they were to happen.

I've looked at the patch you posted in connection with your original note.

I've located the points at which one would alter the patch by reconnecting things to, say, a drum box.

I've told you that that portion of the patch happened to be something that was not only described in the tutorials but actually taken directly *from* the tutorials where its inlets and outlets (the stuff you'd need to disconnect and take into account) are specifically described.

I've told you which tutorials you'd find the relevant data in.

I've suggested that your next move might be to determine what portion of the patch or its general structure you didn't understand (and, based on my reading of the patch, I gave you two or three pretty obvious choices) so as to make your next questions more efficient.

I had the temerity to suggest (based on quite a lot of past experience) that persons who want to know what you're asking get better answers if they ask more specific questions (such as the questions mentioned above).

And that's the ego at work? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - sounds to me like you want me to do your work for you. Perhaps someone else will do it for you, and I wish you every success with that.

I've looked at the patch you posted in connection with your original note. 

I've located the points at which one would alter the patch by reconnecting things to, say, a drum box. 

And that's the ego at work? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - sounds to me like you want me to do your work for you. Perhaps someone else will do it for you, and I wish you every success with that.


Nah, that's the tiring polemic of someone who feels they need to prove their superiority ... good luck with 

Nah, that's the tiring polemic of someone who feels they need to prove their superiority ... good luck with that


The tutorials are going to be your best friend when you're starting out. Even if one particular topic doesn't seem to be of any interest to you at the moment, it is still worth the time to work through each tutorial since they almost always have at least something worth learning when it comes to how Max/MSP works. Plus, you never know when something that seems irrelevant to your end goal is in fact vital to it. After all, there is a good reason why "Do the tutorials" and "RTFM (read the fucking manual)" are such common responses: They ARE very helpful and downright essential.

Something I find useful when going through the tutorials is to open up a new patcher window and re-build parts of it myself. Sometimes connecting the objects together for yourself may make things a bit more clear when trying to understand HOW it works, rather than just focusing on what it does.

Of course, it's entirely understandable that after going through the tutorials, there's still some question as to how to put it all togehter. This is where Mike S' idea would be very helpful; a sort of "ultimate" tutorial where we get to see everything functioning in unison. However, that doesn't exist at this point, so we have to make due with other means...

Studying patches like the "Autechre" patch can be a good way to learn useful things once you know what areas to focus on. It must be noted that the vast majority of Max patches are written by people to be used for themselves; a second hand patch like this one will only be of so much use. This patch was made in order to do exactly what it is doing; play specific sounds at specific times. Think of it as a "composition" and not an "instrument." While it is possible to change the sounds being played, that simply is not what it was meant for. Honestly, it would be easier to write your own patch than to alter/tweak this one to fulfill your needs.

The core of the patch is the simpleFM~ patcher. This is exactly what Tutorial 11 (Frequency Modulation) covers. You can just type "simpleFM~" (minus the quotes, of course) into a new object box and there you have it. I actually just discovered that you could type in that particular subpatch into an object box like that; the quest for knowledge never ends...

Anyways, the sounds are in fact all generated from multiple simpleFM~ patches. The rest is pretty much just controlling them in terms of tempo/bpm/etc. So basically, make yourself familiar with the simpleFM~ subpatch in Tutorial 11, and then look into ways to control it; metro, tempo, counter, etc. It won't be very difficult to get started on; as far as Max/MSP goes, this is all fairly "easy" compared to what CAN be done. It's also a good example of how you can make interesting things with fairly modest means.

It won't end up as "good" as this patch, but the satisfaction you'll get from creating something will make up for it, trust me. Once you've got the basics down, you'll begin to see how you can improve upon it by adding filters/effects and so on.

Above all, you have a good idea about what you'd like to do, which is the most valuable thing to have on your side.

The tutorials are going to be your best friend when you're starting out. Even if one particular topic doesn't seem to be of any interest to you at the moment, it is still worth the time to work through each tutorial since they almost always have at least something worth learning when it comes to how Max/MSP works. Plus, you never know when something that seems irrelevant to your end goal is in fact vital to it. After all, there is a good reason why "Do the tutorials" and "RTFM (read the fucking manual)" are such common responses: They ARE very helpful and downright essential. 

Above all, you have a good idea about what you'd like to do, which is the most valuable thing to have on your side.


Yikes! I didn't get a 'tiring polemic/superiority' sense from the responses to your original post at all. This is one case where the forum-format actually works, it's interesting to go back through the thread and see how the conversation unfolds. It's always surprising to me how texts get so easily misread, usually tending quickly to the negative interpretation. Probably doesn't bode well for us humans. We all seem more and more a buncha monkeys with limited banana-resources.

Yikes!  I didn't get a 'tiring polemic/superiority' sense from the responses to your original post at all.  This is one case where the forum-format actually works, it's interesting to go back through the thread and see how the conversation unfolds.  It's always surprising to me how texts get so easily misread, usually tending quickly to the negative interpretation.  Probably doesn't bode well for us humans.  We all seem more and more a buncha monkeys with limited banana-resources.

Brad Garton wrote on Sat, 24 October 2009 11:26

Gregory said the original post made his day, in a later one he labelled the OP's reply as groveling.

If you can't understand why the OP reacted the way he did then it is your interpretation of the text that is naive.

I understand Gregory's frustration, but it is not the right way to go about helping people, as the replies indicate.

Brad Garton wrote on Sat, 24 October 2009 11:26Yikes!  I didn't get a 'tiring polemic/superiority' sense from the responses to your original post at all.  This is one case where the forum-format actually works, it's interesting to go back through the thread and see how the conversation unfolds.  It's always surprising to me how texts get so easily misread, usually tending quickly to the negative interpretation.  Probably doesn't bode well for us humans.  We all seem more and more a buncha monkeys with limited banana-resources.

I understand Gregory's frustration, but it is not the right way to go about helping people, as the replies indicate.


> Gregory said the original post made his day,

The original post contained nothing but a comment box that said "Autechre Patch" in it. Given the history of this mythological beast, I also thought it a joke and it 'made my day' as a piece of conceptual humor.

> in a later one he labelled the OP's reply as groveling.

Again, I took it as a humorous reply. The "iff'n" was the giveaway.

> If you can't understand why the OP reacted the way

> he did then it is your interpretation of the text

That's probably true. I'm a naive kinda guy.

FWIW, Gregory has been one of the more helpful participants on this list.

The original post contained nothing but a comment box that said "Autechre Patch" in it.  Given the history of this mythological beast, I also thought it a joke and it 'made my day' as a piece of conceptual humor.

Again, I took it as a humorous reply.  The "iff'n" was the giveaway.

> If you can't understand why the OP reacted the way
> he did then it is your interpretation of the text
> that is naive.

That's probably true.  I'm a naive kinda guy.

NickyD86 wrote on Fri, 23 October 2009 10:12

NickyD86 wrote on Fri, 23 October 2009 10:12Hi,

NickyD86 wrote on Sat, 24 October 2009 02:12

What I think is funny is it takes this much compressed code to write "Autecre Patch".

And I'm with Gregory on this one. You get called a noob in every scene you start out 'cause it's true. It's like a medieval guild, in a way. The reply was friendly enough, just compare it to a how people react when you're new in a multiplayer game. And if you're unwilling to invest in Max and just want your final product, you should get it developed...

But I must admit I laughed at the OP as well. Autechre's patches are best!

Where is the send kick. The patch that generates data for the kickdrum function. Thanks

You'll need to trace the send/receive pairs. Here's how it's done:

Look inside the kickdrum part of the patch, find the receive object that's making the FM patch go boom. Got the locked

subpatch visible? Good. Find the receive object and double-click on it. It'll list the subpatches that are sending data to that receive object. If you have only one send destination, it'll be easy to track down what makes it fire when it does. If it has multiple sources, then you'll have to spend a little time figuring out what fires when and why.

Oh. It's got multiple sources, which may explain why it sounds interesting. 

Look inside the kickdrum part of the patch, find the receive object that's making the FM patch go boom. Got the locked
subpatch visible? Good. Find the receive object and double-click on it. It'll list the subpatches that are sending data to  that receive object. If you have only one send destination, it'll be easy to track down what makes it fire when it does. If it has multiple sources, then you'll have to spend a little time figuring out what fires when and why.

Oh. It's got multiple sources, which may explain why it sounds interesting. 


that original post was quite hilarious, even if unintentional

i would strongly advise against learning max by trying to deconstruct an autechre patch. more important than doing tutorials, is just coming up with your own ideas. given what you know about music, try to imagine some kind of system that organizes sound in some way. for example, when i first started i thought about a super basic system (4 samples looping, with a sequencer determining which of the 4 gets played) that couldn't be done in any other DAW (even tho it's so simple), so I worked for hours and hours and posted a bunch of silly posts and finally got sound and it actually sounded awesome (given the right samples).try to imagine something stupid and small and learn everything you have to in order to build it, then what you learn during the process will create new ideas etc etc, it's a snowballing kind of thing.

that original post was quite hilarious, even if unintentional  

i would strongly advise against learning max by trying to deconstruct an autechre patch. more important than doing tutorials, is just coming up with your own ideas. given what you know about music, try to imagine some kind of system that organizes sound in some way. for example, when i first started i thought about a super basic system (4 samples looping, with a sequencer determining which of the 4 gets played) that couldn't be done in any other DAW (even tho it's so simple), so I worked for hours and hours and posted a bunch of silly posts and finally got sound and it actually sounded awesome (given the right samples).try to imagine something stupid and small and learn everything you have to in order to build it, then what you learn during the process will create new ideas etc etc, it's a snowballing kind of thing.


The original post is one of the funniest thing I've ever read on this useally very sober list. If it was intentional, It could've been included in the examples-folder;)

In my opinion Gregory's first response shows the benevolence which can be found in this community. Sure, it's not hard to understand why it was misread into something insulting, but hey, that's something you risk when entering a community. Misunderstanding or not being able to see all the references. Of course, this forum could have been a place without any other motivation than gaining and supporting the customers.

After all, I often have trouble doing very "simple" things in max, but I know I most likely will get a response very fast in this forum, if I ask a question showing I've tried to put some effort into solving the problem myself.

BTW, NIckyD86, the patch provided in your second post was interesting, and probably well worth a dissection. As you've probably figured out by now, it's not that hard to change the sound sources. Open the sub-patchers "p fmkik", "p fmsna", and so on, They are also labeled by comment boxes, as "Kick drum patcher", "Snare Drum Patcher"... Double click to open, and click around. If you click in the small rectangular box with eight grey cicles in them, you will hear dramatical changes in the sound material. Each circle represent a preset. Click around some more, and you will start making your own preset. Go into edit-mode, and alt-click the preset object. There you will find info on how to change your presets. Your friend was right. This isn't samples, but synthesized drums.

It's a lot of Max and MSP to understand in one patch, and I sure feel like a noob confronted with this kind of thing. But luckily Max kan be used to do a lot of other, easier things, which is not so easy to do in other software.

BTW, NIckyD86, the patch provided in your second post was interesting, and probably well worth a dissection. As you've probably figured out by now, it's not that hard to change the sound sources. Open the sub-patchers "p fmkik", "p fmsna", and so on, They are also labeled by comment boxes, as "Kick drum patcher", "Snare Drum Patcher"... Double click to open, and click around. If you click in the small rectangular box with eight grey cicles in them, you will hear dramatical changes in the sound material. Each circle represent a preset. Click around some more, and you will start making your own preset. Go into edit-mode, and alt-click the preset object. There you will find info on how to change your presets. Your friend was right. This isn't samples, but synthesized drums. 

It's a lot of Max and MSP to understand in one patch, and I sure feel like a noob confronted with this kind of thing. But luckily Max kan be used to do a lot of other, easier things, which is not so easy to do in other software.


Also worthy of a look is Andy Farnell's (excellent) Designing Sound as it gives a great and practical introduction to FM, AM, Granular synthesis etc. The examples are shown in PD but are not at all difficult to implement in MAX (same object sets I think). If you want to be making synthesised kicks, blips, and pops such as those in the Autechre Patch then check it out (particularly the FM bit).

Autecre patch mystery