Danjel van Tijn

Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)

I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/msp and studio skills.

Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture myself doing all day :p

Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have involved heavy use of max/msp?  (Asides from academic work)

Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities?  I am exploring career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture myself doing all day :p

careers-in-maxmsp

There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.

On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:

> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have 

> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)

> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio 

> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and 

> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/ 

> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring 

> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture 

San Francisco, CA    Work: 857-544-3967

>
> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have  
> involved heavy use of max/msp?  (Asides from academic work)
>
> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio  
> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and  
> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/ 
> msp and studio skills.
>
> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities?  I am exploring  
> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture  
> myself doing all day :p
>
>
> cheers,
>     Danjel

San Francisco, CA	Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com


hahah but that is a scary way to live when you have mortgage payments to make :P BUT being your own boss is really the best way to live.

You think there is freelance work to do with the video game companies? Maybe that is an ideal compromise.... what would one charge (hourly rate) for doing specialized max/programming work?

hahah but that is a scary way to live when you have mortgage payments to make :P  BUT being your own boss is really the best way to live.

You think there is freelance work to do with the video game companies? Maybe that is an ideal compromise....  what would one charge (hourly rate) for doing specialized max/programming work?

Actually, I would have to disagree with you there.

I have been doing game development for quite some 

time now. No one in the gaming industry does much 

with Max. Maybe there are individuals who like to 

use it to do prototypes and of course the sound 

design people may use it. But out side of that, it is not

very common. Audio and sound are a small part 

of the total work that goes into making a video game.

It would seem that the main audience for doing Max work 

is the academic world. I would be curious to know if

you academic types out there use Max contract programmers

or do you rely on cheap grad student labor? I feel

there is the need for free programming agents who 

can pick up any design doc and implement it. Thus freeing

the academic to be creative instead of having to devote countless

hours to learn Processing, or assembler, or C++, etc.

How would you recommend one go about marketing themselves?

Subject: Re: [maxmsp] careers in Max/MSP?

> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.

> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:

> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that 

> > involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)

> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models 

> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and 

> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, 

> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring 

> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture 

> San Francisco, CA    Work: 857-544-3967

Actually, I would have to disagree with you there.
I have been doing game development for quite some 
time now. No one in the gaming industry does much 
with Max. Maybe there are individuals who like to 
use it to do prototypes and of course the sound 
design people may use it. But out side of that, it is not
very common. Audio and sound are a small part 
of the total work that goes into making a video game.

It would seem that the main audience for doing Max work 
is the academic world. I would be curious to know if
you academic types out there use Max contract programmers
or do you rely on cheap grad student labor? I feel
there is the need for free programming agents who 
can pick up any design doc and implement it. Thus freeing
the academic to be creative instead of having to devote countless
hours to learn Processing, or assembler, or C++, etc. 

----- Original Message -----
From: barry threw 
Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: [maxmsp] careers in Max/MSP?

> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free...
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> >
> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that 
> have  
> > involved heavy use of max/msp?  (Asides from academic work)
> >
> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models 
> audio  
> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and 
>
> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, 
> max/ 
> > msp and studio skills.
> >
> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities?  I am exploring  
> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture 
>
> > myself doing all day :p
> >
> >
> > cheers,
> >     Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA	Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>


Interesting. The closest ive heard is companies like EA developing 

their own in house patching environments, but I did not realize people 

used 'vanilla' Max within game dev stuff.

Now im scared. Id love to know more - out of curiosity.

I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various 

clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe 

On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:57 PM, barry threw wrote:

>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have 

>> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)

>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio 

>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and 

>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/ 

>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring 

>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture 

Interesting. The closest ive heard is companies like EA developing  
their own in house patching environments, but I did not realize people  
used 'vanilla' Max within game dev stuff.

I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various  
clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe  
thats just me!

> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free...
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
>>
>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have  
>> involved heavy use of max/msp?  (Asides from academic work)
>>
>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio  
>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and  
>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/ 
>> msp and studio skills.
>>
>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities?  I am exploring  
>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture  
>> myself doing all day :p
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>>    Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA	Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>


There aren't exactly opportunities jumping on my lap. Care to expound

on how you get opportunities, Barry? Maybe it's cuz I'm just out of

school, but i feel a bit handicapped in that area.

> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have

> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio

> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and

> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/

> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring

> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture

There aren't exactly opportunities jumping on my lap. Care to expound
on how you get opportunities, Barry? Maybe it's cuz I'm just out of
school, but i feel a bit handicapped in that area.

On 11/6/07, barry threw  wrote:
> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free...
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> >
> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
> > involved heavy use of max/msp?  (Asides from academic work)
> >
> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
> > msp and studio skills.
> >
> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities?  I am exploring
> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
> > myself doing all day :p
> >
> >
> > cheers,
> >     Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA	Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>

-- 
Keith Manlove
(512) 825-9176
keithmanlove@gmail.com


I too work in game development and I have to say that I agree with Anthony - there is not a lot of Max work going on in these environments.

Myself - i have done work in Max at my various companies... but it was more a means to an end (solving a specific pipeline problem, prototyping something quickly to demonstrate to a co-worker). I can't really imagine a game company with the resources, understanding, and foresight to hire someone exclusively as a max/msp programmer.

Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++. If you are an expert at those, and also know Max... that would be your ticket in.

Myself - i have done work in Max at my various companies... but it was more a means to an end (solving a specific pipeline problem, prototyping something quickly to demonstrate to a co-worker).  I can't really imagine a game company with the resources, understanding, and foresight to hire someone exclusively as a max/msp programmer.  

Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++.  If you are an expert at those, and also know Max... that would be your ticket in.

On a side note - if you match that description (expert in C++, and C#, experience with Max) and you are in the Los Angeles area and interested in taking on a full time job in game development, please contact me off list with your resume. An exciting opportunity awaits... can't say anymore here because of NDA's

Quote: doctor op wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 16:46

----------------------------------------------------

> Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++. If you are an expert at those, and also know Max... that would be your ticket in.

On a side note - if you match that description (expert in C++, and C#, experience with Max) and you are in the Los Angeles area and interested in taking on a full time job in game development, please contact me off list with your resume.  An exciting opportunity awaits... can't say anymore here because of NDA's

Quote: doctor op wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 16:46
----------------------------------------------------
> Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++.  If you are an expert at those, and also know Max... that would be your ticket in.
>
> hope that helps,
> dan
----------------------------------------------------


> what would one charge (hourly rate) for doing specialized max/ 

a) perceived wealth of the client (individual or corporation, profile)

c) how much fun I'm going to have / if there is artistic merit

d) how much money the final product is going to make

With that said, I have a baseline that determined by my cost of 

living, and so can't work for less than that. That being said, I am 

insane; I haven't made my employment choices largely based upon wise 

financial planning at this stage in my life. It's the kind of choice 

My only piece of hard advice is to move to an area with a good 

scene. For games, San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, LA, New York, 

possibly Boston. For art, San Francisco, LA, New York, Montreal, 

Berlin, London, Tokyo, and its looking more and more like Mexico 

>  what would one charge (hourly rate) for doing specialized max/ 
> programming work?

a) perceived wealth of the client (individual or corporation, profile)
b) possibility of recurring return work
c) how much fun I'm going to have / if there is artistic merit
d) how much money the final product is going to make

With that said, I have a baseline that determined by my cost of  
living, and so can't work for less than that.  That being said, I am  
insane; I haven't made my employment choices largely based upon wise  
financial planning at this stage in my life.  It's the kind of choice  
you have to make.

My only piece of hard advice is to move to an area with a good  
scene.  For games, San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, LA, New York,  
possibly Boston.  For art, San Francisco, LA, New York, Montreal,  
Berlin, London, Tokyo, and its looking more and more like Mexico  
City.  There are probably some more.

You left out one of the biggest cities for video games! (and where I live) Vancouver ;)

The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this

for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.

The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max  I know this
for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.

My experience is that potential employers/clients tend to be more 

concerned with what you are capable of producing and how you conduct 

yourself than what software you use. Consider MaxMSP to be part of your 

general toolset for sound design, interactivity, theatrical tech, or 

whatever your focus tends to be. Focus more on doing good work and 

developing a portfolio/resume than on what applications you are familiar 

That said, some people in this community can supplement their wages well 

by doing the occasional MaxMSP consulting/programming gig. If this is 

your interest, it helps to live in an area where there are a profusion 

of new media artists running around looking for someone to help them 

fulfill the requirements of their most recent concept or grant. I don't 

know anybody who pays their rent doing that, but perhaps you will be 

more lucky. It's all pretty much word of mouth, so you will have to be 

As for video game dev, I too have talked to some video game sound dudes 

that said that MaxMSP or Pd skills were definitely regarded as 

beneficial for job opportunities. Mind you, they aren't the only skills 

required of the job, and my information is purely anecdotal. I've never 

My experience is that potential employers/clients tend to be more 
concerned with what you are capable of producing and how you conduct 
yourself than what software you use.  Consider MaxMSP to be part of your 
general toolset for sound design, interactivity, theatrical tech, or 
whatever your focus tends to be.  Focus more on doing good work and 
developing a portfolio/resume than on what applications you are familiar 
with.

That said, some people in this community can supplement their wages well 
by doing the occasional MaxMSP consulting/programming gig.  If this is 
your interest, it helps to live in an area where there are a profusion 
of new media artists running around looking for someone to help them 
fulfill the requirements of their most recent concept or grant.  I don't 
know anybody who pays their rent doing that, but perhaps you will be 
more lucky.  It's all pretty much word of mouth, so you will have to be 
willing to meet people occasionally.

As for video game dev, I too have talked to some video game sound dudes 
that said that MaxMSP or Pd skills were definitely regarded as 
beneficial for job opportunities.  Mind you, they aren't the only skills 
required of the job, and my information is purely anecdotal.  I've never 
applied for a video game job.

I don't know how much is public information, probably not much, so I 

have to be cautious and say not much more.

> Interesting. The closest ive heard is companies like EA developing 

> their own in house patching environments, but I did not realize 

> people used 'vanilla' Max within game dev stuff.

> Now im scared. Id love to know more - out of curiosity.

> I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various 

> clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe 

> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:57 PM, barry threw wrote:

>> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.

>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:

>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that 

>>> have involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)

>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models 

>>> audio engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/ 

>>> msp and that there was actually a deficit of people versed in 

>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring 

>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture 

I don't know how much is public information, probably not much, so I  
have to be cautious and say not much more.

> Interesting. The closest ive heard is companies like EA developing  
> their own in house patching environments, but I did not realize  
> people used 'vanilla' Max within game dev stuff.
>
> To model GUIs?
>
> Now im scared. Id love to know more - out of curiosity.
>
> I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various  
> clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe  
> thats just me!
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:57 PM, barry threw wrote:
>
>> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>>
>> However, consider freelancing!
>>
>> Work makes one free...
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that  
>>> have involved heavy use of max/msp?  (Asides from academic work)
>>>
>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models  
>>> audio engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/ 
>>> msp and that there was actually a deficit of people versed in  
>>> coding, max/msp and studio skills.
>>>
>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities?  I am exploring  
>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture  
>>> myself doing all day :p
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>    Danjel
>>>

On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:14 PM, Wesley Smith wrote:

> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this

> for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.

> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max  I know this
> for a fact, so there's at least one instance of a big game using it.
>
> wes

On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:

> You left out one of the biggest cities for video games! (and where 

>
> You left out one of the biggest cities for video games! (and where  
> I live) Vancouver ;)
>
>

I wish I had good advice on this front. I think it mostly just takes 

time. You also have to create a network of friends and associates in 

the field you would like to work in (media art, games). I think 

conferences that aren't too expensive can help, but in a long term way.

The main piece of advice? Be involved. In whatever area of work you 

want to be in, just show up to places where there are more people 

that do what you do and attempt to be creative with them. Find 

people that do something different than what you do, because they are 

the ones that will need you. Diversifying your skill set helps...the 

more things you can do, the more things you can find to do. Learn C.

If you are freelance, you basically have to be looking all the time 

for opportunities to keep your schedule full. Sometimes this results 

in the schedule being too full to do anything else except work 26 

hours a day, but that is necessary to keep from having a month long 

More random advice that may not be worth anything...

On Nov 6, 2007, at 3:16 PM, keith manlove wrote:

> There aren't exactly opportunities jumping on my lap. Care to expound

> on how you get opportunities, Barry? Maybe it's cuz I'm just out of

> school, but i feel a bit handicapped in that area.

>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have

>>> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)

>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio

>>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and

>>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/

>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring

>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture

I wish I had good advice on this front.  I think it mostly just takes  
time.  You also have to create a network of friends and associates in  
the field you would like to work in (media art, games).  I think  
conferences that aren't too expensive can help, but in a long term way.

The main piece of advice?  Be involved.  In whatever area of work you  
want to be in, just show up to places where there are more people  
that do what you do and attempt to be creative with them.  Find  
people that do something different than what you do, because they are  
the ones that will need you. Diversifying your skill set helps...the  
more things you can do, the more things you can find to do.  Learn C.

If you are freelance, you basically have to be looking all the time  
for opportunities to keep your schedule full.  Sometimes this results  
in the schedule being too full to do anything else except work 26  
hours a day, but that is necessary to keep from having a month long  
dry spell.

> There aren't exactly opportunities jumping on my lap. Care to expound
> on how you get opportunities, Barry? Maybe it's cuz I'm just out of
> school, but i feel a bit handicapped in that area.
>
> Keith
>
> On 11/6/07, barry threw  wrote:
>> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>>
>> However, consider freelancing!
>>
>> Work makes one free...
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
>>> involved heavy use of max/msp?  (Asides from academic work)
>>>
>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
>>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
>>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
>>> msp and studio skills.
>>>
>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities?  I am exploring
>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>>> myself doing all day :p
>>>
>>>

I guess this is what I was trying to say...but Andrew said it better.

Be involved in the arts that you want to do, and for a certain subset 

of them, Max turns out to be an effective tool for realizing your 

On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:19 PM, andrew benson wrote:

> My experience is that potential employers/clients tend to be more 

> concerned with what you are capable of producing and how you 

> conduct yourself than what software you use. Consider MaxMSP to be 

> part of your general toolset for sound design, interactivity, 