As i like granular audio treatment, i’ve created a patch that makes realtime video granular treatment. It is a very simple patch, but i’ve never seen such treatment before, so i wanted to share this…
hello sound cool but when I downloaded it there was no extension, i added maxpat but cant get it to open is it a maxpat?
it was built on Max 4.5, i’m not sure it works on PCs (made on a Mac)
you have to make sure to save the file with a .pat after it. I had to add .pat to make it work. I cleaned it up but its in max 5
that is so cool!!!!!
thanx for sharing!
i’m glad you like it !
And Axiom, thank you for the Max5 version, but the values are not visible in your patch and i think i doesn’t make sense to have just sliders without values. And I thought i gave a different name to my patch…
And sorry for the others if i have forgotten to make the .pat extension visible.
I changed the name simply for clarity of function, this is technically a random video delay and not quite a grain function, but it could become one pretty easily, you would have to look at audio grains and how they work and see how it differs from what you have here, basically a video grain would be a windowed slice of linear played video, so you would have a matrixset that is being conted through in a linear way, and then a way to make an envelope for the alpha so that it will blend with the other video grains. I might try and make one in a bit.
In the original sense of an audio grain, it is the smallest bit of sound which can be perceived as such. The equivalent in visuals is simply a picture, it doesn’t need windowing, as sonic and visual perception are fundamentally different.
A blending between video bits could be cool as well, if you plan to extend it to longer phrases. I do that in audio, but in the end I wouldn’t call it granular anymore…
I disagree, windowing on video elements with an alpha or blend envelope would allow for imagery to overlap, and usually when I use granular audio I have the option of setting the length of the grains, so in that sense a short sequence of frames down to 1 single frame from the granulized video would be like a grain. also typically in most of my granular audio experience you have the ability to set the number of active grains, which would allow for lots of images from surrounding areas of the video buffer to be overlaid on top of each other which would create a really nice temporal blurring.
My typical analogy with granular in visual is particles. I think that particles work very similar to grains and could easily be created with intimate analogies for every parameter.
Do you agree that this patch functions a bit more like a random buffer delay? Or do you think it is like granular? I agree that it is very similar to granular but there are a few distinct characteristics of granular that are missing.
wow, whatever you guys decide on calling it is fine with me, this is amazing. exactly the sort of random choppy ‘granular’ effect i was looking for. cheers…
> My typical analogy with granular in visual is particles. I think that
> particles work very similar to grains and could easily be created with
> intimate analogies for every parameter.
Yes, mixing the terms is problematic any way, it depends much on the perspective. If I look at my 3d representation of the world around me, there is no such thing as a picture. I see objects, and I’d agree that particles would be a good analogy.
> Do you agree that this patch functions a bit more like a random buffer delay?
Yes, of course
> Or do you think it is like granular?
also yes, as that is a common practice in live audio to have the grains just be jittered and thus delayed randomly.
> I agree that it is very similar to granular but there are a few
> distinct characteristics of granular that are missing.
Anyway, how to name a thing isn’t really important, I love the result…
When I work with composers, they often want to do granular synthesis. Each and every of them had a very different idea about it. Non of the final results I would call granular, but for them it still is…
To have a clear nomenclature, I’d restrict the term to the way Curtis Roads introduced it, and not extend it to visual. But in this case the inspiration was granular sound synthesis and the result is inspiring in itself no matter how it would be called…
To explain it to someone who isn’t able to see it, I’d probably also say its a random buffer delay…
are you referring to microsound? I love that book, as well as computer music tutorial. I don’t remember his definition of a grain, but are you saying that the definition says it cant be longer then a certain time? also I thought Xenakis was the first to come up with granular synthesis definition? Do I remember incorrectly?
|BaltimoreMAX wrote on Tue, 28 April 2009 10:43|
|have you guys seen this, I say a dvd of there work and it looked visually perfectly matched to the grains, and they seemed to be able to perform small changes over time|
now thats what im talking about!! i can’t believe i hadn’t heard of these guys before. what a head fu*k!! am trying to track down a dvd now. looks like it would be the perfect movie to put on at a recovery session
do any of you smart people think it would be possible to be capturing live sound with this patch? that would be really cool!
|Axiom-Crux wrote on Tue, 28 April 2009 16:21|
|are you referring to microsound? I love that book, as well as computer music tutorial. I don’t remember his definition of a grain, but are you saying that the definition says it cant be longer then a certain time? also I thought Xenakis was the first to come up with granular synthesis definition? Do I remember incorrectly?|
As often with inventions which are "in the air" its hard to tell. And I bet the first thoughts in that direction could well be coming from Xenakis.
Microsound is much more recent than granular synthesis, but its summarizing the basic thoughts. The idea is to cut an exiting sound into as small as possible bits, which could have their own identity, the smallest part a sound is composed of. If you make it too short, you don’t hear any characteristic of the original if you play it back solo. If its too long, it is already composed of sound bits.
The area of time is around the time where we would distinguish between single events and a tone, the area where we distinguish between spectral properties and time properties. This is around the lowest frequency we can hear. about 50 ms or 20 Hz. This area is blurred of course…
I’d say anything longer than 100 ms/10 Hz I wouldn’t call a grain anymore, and also anything shorter than 20 ms is questionable (or do you hear the 50 Hz buzz as a fast rhythm?).
The main problem in granular synthesis are fast transients. As we do hear their spectral content, and they could be very short. A single click of 1 ms is a grain if you include its surrounding silence….
Finally what we do with these grains once we have them, is only limited by imagination. In audio we need to blend them with some sort of windowing, as a rectangle window would create clicks and change the spectral content completely. In visuals I guess its not really changing the spectral content if we just switch between pictures. But our visual sense is translating non abstract pictures into a 3D representation of a bunch of objects. In the end the challenge is to deal with the latter instead of the 2D pictures…
|Bufferstroker wrote on Tue, 28 April 2009 20:01|
|do any of you smart people think it would be possible to be capturing live sound with this patch? that would be really cool!|
Why not? Delaying audio is way easier than delaying video…
your right….im just being lazy.
I’ve been wanting to get a copy of microsound for a while but everytime i got to borders they say they have to order it in. looks like amazon is my only hope in australia. once again my instant gratification urge while have to be tamed.
This is amazing. I’m looking to use this in a college project I’m doing. Do you know how I would go about making the audio grain with the video.
Hi everybody, would be great to test this patch… but I don’t see the attachment anymore… can anyone re-up ?
i would also like to try this patch, so please could someone who has access to it repost on the forum. Many thanks.
this is what I have and believe being the one you are looking for:
----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 2777.3oc2c00baiaE8YmeEb7zGZmU1K9Fj8ozlLc59T6rcZ5C6zICkHrM2kh TghJIt6r+2KH.nsrs93RK.HtI1VxjRQ7hCt3fy8hKn+02bwkya9pZ8kI+4je J4hK902bwElS0ehKbGewkKy+5hp70l21kKZVtTU2c4L6q0o9Zm47rgyTuYYY ckpy71wtSVVXdSMy+4qvCuwaZp6pyWpLuxeosLuZqOhlMcCeFH2YWk2s3tx5 a+XqZQm0jyjWilkHD8OhsOpOSx+cqqv5x+m4JjcMp+j+1adS+CyNwVKEZqk3 wVKVvNSMWBzlK0iMWBmD3las5KZi9Es1BUUBGsylL4kMY1Xax3CzCa5fwTSC ml9hlr8So69UJ66+x4402dY3QjuKgvfhGbOhGTIsGCXDy3bJ93.Ro16M73wh tpx5DLB5vBwXwDxwwDjAMXbXXxrXAMe29fkc3pH8nqBIyfDTAZJ5pjA0SI0i dJCPB0vpPylXdJeeBVOtFpuRlOoUxLNIbFxNR53.yMUM4QjXArVJjOIVbnBV ddcWVpVuN+V0KvlaUcetP84px0cPcZvXexvHspMMCpDVBF9gfmHAJk0qzW4w fJDeJYI8LhJ5gkZC8fiVzmpbo98zq07ZzN.C.RV6ZKWuHuRY+PxN3.Ks8Mb8 vOb8le6hlplVKBftNUn+mb1N+M7VX2AFjJrCRe4r+206Z7zqlDwSSmsyeCeb RuYQSko9xUz6muOwl6h.zmpuYjrsluTHNNAnWAkMKmqZA2v490s0ednCnnkQ HrdntIfhs+IGrvervmxVX7e+3eJmp9mCn32d9ms40EMKGQpKvo9THfzLtmgM HJOM5Af00b6sUJvNnYu1VH0kXF9w05Xag9qGdopqsYD4hgf7eGLUXdxlbtIQ 1oJ6fyKQvdMccFwXDhIiLDdjIj2MZzkrnRkCGP7Yv.DKcJgwfl.SqsN8PEp+ yh44DU1W3ilXGS9CXvDJL+mxNRZ1VYxLZwNtYopdyA8GzlbW6xlB09bRFcpt oC3utI4V0sCIUY.fDVWlQjqWyO6CrFZIcpkVn38e3pO7te7R+MZaUqZkptHI eU+SfGzIBfykcPmbZvMOpYpBP1wOSyTsO1m9z4UtPMF9mz.L8sk+gmN03e1t cmEXplArHvTM+TOYy69m+3+H4u+9j+HFkhJ4n+T+Gwr9Gd9qI18qIInUG3kH 7u+oenIenrP07vI9ge38uK4uU1p9O5ed1q8u+W+U6YRdWeOk6U8oF9WG2HEE .G+IE2Xq9hpRFxvexgyp8tPH7qcHx9QHblguDiADryQGK3QhyFsqCTJS5qVf +yx4h.ikBdetOjHbl.ax8wQS2B1ksJ67OYwkicboDfRG8HIoKYR1EA4bjRfA 5j4MsEvEWP8oNdGHvPoSH5jqR.Kpf5yRVI0PUvXVgVxoRYHzm6ZS5Xf5f3Ss 37L63d25sOcpqoGxnO3Ubm5SU4otZ3QZoHQShANqx+kDUa9Z0GMr+Z5d223c WqF7c.R9TktH0xtXifASRiKJMxoPFeVksIRk5Rd9vigXBjiu.NauX46nRGQA aox8+x7HnB6XKw2hKC4XnxY9Lk2BlEOsj3LwziJGbsJy7YluGb231U+JaJSR wFuN2LN1xRQCtN28EyyMqyyGQlhX9Tgqq4yv1mnS4nXX7wqCISbt6cWee8hw z65S4otl+PuKeZTYe81WBJAiPZchHs5P36HAY.H7k1TfflH08XSa2cMiwgIM .j8N+F9jlNH6UDBK+rS12W5gZqZD8vbjWihmuEk.Ox8v6QhyZUUxiqJzQwCr GqMbIlZcIH6QM8tk8MKJ3xOW1c8WJqKZ9Rh1m49tllpj2VnV0c27M2bipEdz 8bhGwLgzltCGZIRmTf1untemnxNh6iO5hgfc.TwhCNOIH68hs1kAyB0dNn2E 5lUqucSIXWElOcUr9HTD5wDA0uI.OxpMDmgVeZddUEXXg6QXwk2PBYaY2xnB KipnW4hoZQuJrK0GVR9ca1PFmrGt7UmkZmR2yW4cxAOEeZ.RReV5VRdlBY1o KYtMgz5mmCt+OyiyYMvC41P5L3Sjar6GFMDubD1yaea00sp5Bs9mAUQf2txH +ShyI1bEhnSNsiZf5y8k4wpp7Z0ykP9QUc97JkNR72peptX3XbxaMzk80GXR d6sf8LE9TWtqlrEVcTTHiZ0s3OtLWOMzWiV0Jroa0lN60bDAzIH9u304VEVo rHGP2njQHnSUYDC6wCY5d1B.SeYD6uRnKTix6j48hFv4bxxlzNmS1MdnqxKb tnYe6rfeKZ1T2omFGo+ZOatqcrH7BgGU.4vVqnXobbEGZztiRzOYtcZl0ptD IGkvRVbWdqNVZTBgA+10hz+SQyot6iQry4Tz6Uh8Z8Wvkvj5wRsbn9GvPyGz fOUDkR+IsHw174i1OJym5nsy1ZKjxrzInWzmFa7qRelxdG9frK.uL9gutOkE 1xnBes6a3RLj3.bOuwdKyK1Bf22MVtuTVcSaopHo6tRUa68IW8X7WWkPPHv2 3jj97NsmdpCSXUVvxMlKR2q8.uXERedy1iZK8r.dy1akN3ZvYfPxNbK3YpFy XYHhQ8FhlQL+VFIigI.taU7XcoSsK5mft0+kVs1qBkwv1tQad8KqJqe9MOSy kn+7OEIV2rocwv.qgBEL4wKSgZs1uOuqrodq2D6Ium6JKJT0aiBKKKV0nkV4 rAA9ZtdpASmGgN766IAkd0P6IxGikdh1zytb61lDYQ0l52YZd2lv5vX38Nlt cih0KcqCv10Jx1yaN3TaFr.zLnHVjaF8a5k.zaXFT4t8b5LV6xzcRFKNHFqd rePLVb.LVRZXLVADxKQZTIJLWNxwrIQbsIA.bpeaxDQa5YWt8fSw0lDfrIVb sodeb7w56vwsuCBIAIt1DAhMQiqPFJDgLjHKjgD.apeqFy62d413NsxZLGcp VKDFdRbY36u2mcbVhdJW1HzPwsZnrx6GDF5AA9PD7gGa2Mca8dooOH36TQVP 81wcLLAxXXbj8.AELBMtySQgXSj3ZSfh1QNNaJyHek61nhZm+gi7gvQrmMVa wNE.ikD.j8TSa.nPWFopDZlgIV7HW2vQmJBJCf0dp7Jbn7uX31Dilt0LaDga 8fdxQ7GJDTt6nXLGMNcbsjmNGMgH80bzvzSSdUIWhXueuOnPyl02S2ZOFQEQ N97YzaltMh.xYszSWAIDOARbiGm.IdbRbi8kPCfMQSIaEWvPupOhK.DSUbiT GhnrHOiHDRP4qKYut8T5ve7QdxQV57A5RePmKBPKIJzfzShFzM7wCzfP.v3R 3fgDXUbyMBjvOwwMrJLDZYYbkIBg6E+5lofYKyCFw9zSNhZuENNnmje5QwfY AnkbpzJfFoFWpNNjIR3wMGHbHS2xiaeGGxHCdb4znfxUzHyolHyL0N2VvnBT 5CGcpYqLHVKiGFqkCYsYFs0ZytZ+Zl9n0ZNxGVquwVeXSGa0R4wUGOCRtsXw EmXPDKwhLCr.5rB33gSPxjBKtydx.gSiL6NYHCmFy9WBSgL6giN0dUT.r1TJ KLVKSF.qUvsXqMmuCVqGx4KiEBOAAJLXKMDVqjGHOANj.k3iLPIgzjiWlMbb I1tAtdxQtBuVRH1zhb5dIbPUxPbCCkEBaxMNiJb2XgsIORb5w0Qg3KPiqpBJ DlJiXcV75UgnHjGYkNPhghE270yf3OwNE+I8A+1a9+rxoFBF -----------end_max5_patcher-----------
Forums > Jitter