Gregory Taylor

This comes up now and then, and it's probably a good time to talk about it for the most recent wave of beginners in our midst.

Here are some basic problem solving skills it might be useful to acquire as you start upon 

There May Not Be A Single External Object

If you have something you want to do, don't automatically assume that there is a single Max external that will accomplish your specific goal. While that may be true, it is more likely that the solution you seek will involve some lower-level functionality. The fact that you don't automatically know what single object or objects you need is 

 a result of your being ignorant - lots and lots of more experienced users don't automatically know what to look for, either.

Even more users with quite a lot of experience discover along the way that there was another way to do something all along. The trick is learning how to look intelligently. While wallpapering the Max list the second you have a question at all may seem expedient for the moment, many users have found that the search for a solution itself will direct them to riches they didn't know about.

How might you go about hunting around for things more intelligently? One way which is, in my experience, not intuitively obvious to new users involves doing searches in PDF documents. As people have said and will say again, the help file does not contain everything you need to know; merely those things most commonly used. PDf searching is quick and may be particularly useful to people for whom English is not a first language.

Best of all, you can put all your PDFs in a single folder and direct Acrobat to search in the entire folder (i.e. everywhere). New Jitter users routinely seem to completely miss all kinds of things covered in detail in the Jitter Tutorial, probably because they assume that the online html is all they'll ever need. Ain't so. So try a few keywords for your search.

Doing exactly the same search in the Max archives will quite likely also be very very useful, that those searches may also bring up some code examples. They will also save you one iteration on the Max list - the one where someone answers your question by telling you it's already in the archives.

Often, new users [who are already prone to thinking that there is a simple/secret Max object that does some incredibly complex thing] won't start thinking of their problem in smaller units. A request of the form, "Hi! I want to use my computer keyboard to randomly play frames in a movie and scrub stuff from a buffer. How do I do that?" is actually three requests rolled into one:

Whenever possible, make some attempt to break down your problem. You may find that you either know something about how to do bits and pieces of it, and it's more likely that posting a query that implies you've done already invested a little though equity by trying to break your problem down will get you more answers and better ones.

Once you get some of the answers you seek [either a piece of code or advice on where to look for your answer], there's the question of joining things together so that they work. Here is the point where almost everyone agrees that spending some time in the tutorials REALLY matters. Almost every single Max problem breaks down into three bits:

And how do you know that stuff? Max is about passing data here and there, in the form of messages or matrices. Those reading assignments in b. above? That's where the stuff is talked about. The poor drudge who actually learns how to handle and route messages, figure out how to read a manual pages, and those dreary things is the person who's playing hare to your tortoise. As Eno's Oblique Strategies say,

If you engage in the input/transformation/output stuff making Max patches for long enough, you'll know for yourself what I'm about to tell you: There is almost 

 more than one way to do anything in Max, and it's not necessarily the case that the way someone you know does it is the only right way to do things. One sure sign of a beginner is that they'll ask how something is done in a way that implies that there's only one solution. Asking someone else how they would do a task you've thought through enough to verbalize clearly is a near sure way to discover all kinds of interesting approaches that other people have. Collecting huge folders of possible solutions to all kinds of problems won't make you a better Max programmer. 

, and doing so in the midst of solving a problem [which reinforces your learning] will.

The Seductive Fallacy Of The Single Solution

There are as many different questions and ways of questioning as there are questioners. Having said that, I honestly think it's safe to say that - in general - you'll have the best luck doing some amount of your own searching about before posting questions, and you'll also find that the quality of the solutions you get from others will generally be in direct proportion to the impression that you've already done some of the work rather than that you're trying to get someone to do your work for you. 

Likewise, demonstrating your commitment to a wider community by being polite enough to ask good questions is also reinforced by sharing the solutions your receive, or posting the ones you arrive at. 

They may, in turn, lead to other refinements from other readers, thus rewarding you again. 

I meet people all the time who labor under the misapprehension that Max is composed of a series of secret tricks that only the cognoscenti know. The regularity of it makes me sad. If there 

 a Max secret, it is probably that quite a few of the people who appear to be really bright have discovered in the course of making mistakes and poking around while solving their own problems what the people who asked them for their answers won't ever figure out.

The journey is as important as you believe the destination to be. Good luck, and happy hunting. Now that I've typed a bunch of things I say in various ways in various places, I'll be able to refer to it as this post.

This comes up now and then, and it's probably a good time to talk about it for the most recent wave of beginners in our midst.

 Here are some basic problem solving skills it might be useful to acquire as you start upon The Way That Is Max: 

There May Not Be A Single External Object

If you have something you want to do, don't automatically assume that there is a single Max external that will accomplish your specific goal. While that may be true, it is more likely that the solution you seek will involve some lower-level functionality. The fact that you don't automatically know what single object or objects you need is not a result of your being ignorant - lots and lots of more experienced users don't automatically know what to look for, either.

How might you go about hunting around for things more intelligently? One way which is, in my experience, not intuitively obvious to new users involves doing searches in PDF documents. As people have said and will say again, the help file does not contain everything you need to know; merely those things most commonly used. PDf searching is quick and may be particularly useful to people for whom English is not a first language. 

What do I do to get data from my keyboard? Can I do that?

How do I play individual frames in a movie?

How can I scrub audio stored in a buffer?

Whenever possible, make some attempt to break down your problem. You may find that you either know something about how to do bits and pieces of it, and it's more likely that posting a query that implies you've done already invested a little though equity by trying to break your problem down will get you more answers and better ones. 

The Max code that does the work you want in the end will expect some kind of message that tells it what to do. You need to know what that message IS, or you'll be staring at the patch like a cow at a passing train.

At some point, there's something someplace in your patch that is spitting out or generating control data. A video camera, a MIDI keyboard, your computer keyboard, a little Max applet that calculates a Navier-Stokes equation, whatever. You need to understand what form that output takes. Is it a stream of numbers? Is is a bunch of lists? Is it data from a serial port? Does it come from a bunch of places? One of the things that you need to know has to do with what those messages are, and how Max does what it does. Read the Overview chapter in the Fundamentals manual. Read "How MSP Works" and the Audio I/O chapter in the MSP tutorial. Ditto the "What is a matrix?" and opening tutorials for Jitter. If you don't know that stuff, you'll be making all kinds of mistakes all the time you can avoid with a little effort.

Finally, the question for you and every other being in the Max world is: "How to I take the messages from the start end of the chain [camera/keyboard] I am getting and put them in a form that the Max objects at the end of my patch chain will understand?" Not only is that the thing that everyone does all the time, what you wind up with as a result will, in time, become part of another chain of Max things that will have you asking questions 1, 2, and 3 all over again.

If you engage in the input/transformation/output stuff making Max patches for long enough, you'll know for yourself what I'm about to tell you: There is almost always more than one way to do anything in Max, and it's not necessarily the case that the way someone you know does it is the only right way to do things. One sure sign of a beginner is that they'll ask how something is done in a way that implies that there's only one solution. Asking someone else how they would do a task you've thought through enough to verbalize clearly is a near sure way to discover all kinds of interesting approaches that other people have. Collecting huge folders of possible solutions to all kinds of problems won't make you a better Max programmer. 

Finding the ones that make sense to you, and doing so in the midst of solving a problem [which reinforces your learning] will.

The Seductive Fallacy Of The Single Solution 

There are as many different questions and ways of questioning as there are questioners. Having said that, I honestly think it's safe to say that - in general - you'll have the best luck doing some amount of your own searching about before posting questions, and you'll also find that the quality of the solutions you get from others will generally be in direct proportion to the impression that you've already done some of the work rather than that you're trying to get someone to do your work for you. 
Likewise, demonstrating your commitment to a wider community by being polite enough to ask good questions is also reinforced by sharing the solutions your receive, or posting the ones you arrive at. 

They may, in turn, lead to other refinements from other readers, thus rewarding you again. 

I meet people all the time who labor under the misapprehension that Max is composed of a series of secret tricks that only the cognoscenti know. The regularity of it makes me sad. If there is a Max secret, it is probably that quite a few of the people who appear to be really bright have discovered in the course of making mistakes and poking around while solving their own problems what the people who asked them for their answers won't ever figure out. 

This comes up now and then, and it's probably a good time to talk about it for the most recent wave of beginners in our midst.

 Here are so

help-help-i-dont-know-how-to-insert-something-here

> ...The fact that you don't automatically know what

> single object or objects you need is a result of your being 

> ignorant - lots and lots of more experienced user don't auto-

> matically know what to look for, either. And even more users 

> with quite a lot of experience discover along the way that

> there was another way to do something all along. The trick is

As the context implies, that should read " is NOT a result of your

And isn't it great to live in a country where you don't

have to be able to spell the word "functionality" to

make use of functionality? Truly, this is a golden age.

> ...The fact that you don't automatically know what
> single object or objects you need is a result of your being 
> ignorant - lots and lots of more experienced user don't auto-
> matically know what to look for, either. And even more users 
> with quite a lot of experience discover along the way that
> there was another way to do something all along. The trick is
> learning how to look intelligently. 

As the context implies, that should read " is NOT a result of your
being ignorant" - because it isn't.

And isn't it great to live in a country where you don't
have to be able to spell the word "functionality" to
make use of functionality? Truly, this is a golden age.


Someone on the left coast has written to ask me if

I haven't committed any of the errors I describe.

The answer is that I have committed every single one,

which is how I know about 'em and how they interconnect.

You don't even want to know how many years went by 

before I realized that 60% of the Max mistakes I

made were because I thought I was too bloody clever

to read the bit about what a list was. My ears 

The same soul has also taken me to task for not

trumpeting the value of the examples folder installed

with Max/MSP/Jitter more heavily in my original 

comments, and more regularly in general. I am,

apparently remiss for not taking the opportunity

of bringing the many examples in the Max folder up

in the broader context of looking intelligently for

possible solutions. My sense is that they feel strongly

that said examples really DO constitute more of a guide

to how things should be done than I do, but I do return

to them with some regularity [for Jitter quite often, 

My general approach with beginning Max users has been

that, apart from situations in which someone is trying

to do something that reflects a lack of understanding

of the CPU resources required for a task [as in, "Hey. I

was wondering how I can run 42 video cameras simultaneously

on my 1.0 MHz. powerbook...."), the "This is the best way to do this" description that is really about optimization

is really a matter best taken up after one has a patch

running, and = apart from some basic patch hygeine ["Don't

use 4 metro objects in your patch if you can use a single

one and subdivide it" being one of those], saving CPU

Finally, my colleagues Joshua or Jeremy have also 

periodically made reference to this document when

matters of "How to Ask Questions" arise. Here's the

helpful link again, although it's aimed at a slightly

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Someone on the left coast has written to ask me if
I haven't committed any of the errors I describe.
The answer is that I have committed every single one,
which is how I know about 'em and how they interconnect.
You don't even want to know how many years went by 
before I realized that 60% of the Max mistakes I
made were because I thought I was too bloody clever
to read the bit about what a list was. My ears 
still burn in shame just typing this.

The same soul has also taken me to task for not
trumpeting the value of the examples folder installed
with Max/MSP/Jitter more heavily in my original 
comments, and more regularly in general. I am,
apparently remiss for not taking the opportunity
of bringing the many examples in the Max folder up
in the broader context of looking intelligently for
possible solutions. My sense is that they feel strongly
that said examples really DO constitute more of a guide
to how things should be done than I do, but I do return
to them with some regularity [for Jitter quite often, 
in my case].

My general approach with beginning Max users has been
that, apart from situations in which someone is trying
to do something that reflects a lack of understanding
of the CPU resources required for a task [as in, "Hey. I
was wondering how I can run 42 video cameras simultaneously
on my 1.0 MHz. powerbook...."), the "This is the best way to do this" description that is really about optimization
is really a matter best taken up after one has a patch
running, and = apart from some basic patch hygeine ["Don't
use 4 metro objects in your patch if you can use a single
one and subdivide it" being one of those], saving CPU
cycles is more an intermediate question.

Finally, my colleagues Joshua or Jeremy have also 
periodically made reference to this document when
matters of "How to Ask Questions" arise. Here's the
helpful link again, although it's aimed at a slightly
different audience.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


> I meet people all the time who labor under the misapprehension

> that Max is composed of a series of secret tricks that only

and why do you want to destroy the dreams of 

those who want to continue to think this is 

>
> I meet people all the time who labor under the misapprehension
> that Max is composed of a series of secret tricks that only
> the cognoscenti know.

and why do you want to destroy the dreams of 
those who want to continue to think this is 
the truth about maxing?

I am rather impressed by the multitude of newbie posts lately. I really don't understand how people look past the help files. Its one thing to not know what object you need to accomplish a task, but to ask if an object does something, well the help files and pdf are pretty explicit. I didn't even start posting till last year after 4 years of maxing solo, no lessons, nothing but the tutorials, help files and examples. I really think thats the way to go, and from alot of the people that Ive talked too who have taken workshops, they said the same thing. Though in depth classes would be pretty great. I usually try to only ask the forum if its something that I cant figure out after an hour or so of digging, and even then usually only if its something I think can help other people, or that other people would know right off the bat. So many helpful people in this community.

I am rather impressed by the multitude of newbie posts lately.  I really don't understand how people look past the help files.  Its one thing to not know what object you need to accomplish a task, but to ask if an object does something, well the help files and pdf are pretty explicit.  I didn't even start posting till last year after 4 years of maxing solo, no lessons, nothing but the tutorials, help files and examples.  I really think thats the way to go, and from alot of the people that Ive talked too who have taken workshops, they said the same thing.  Though in depth classes would be pretty great.  I usually try to only ask the forum if its something that I cant figure out after an hour or so of digging, and even then usually only if its something I think can help other people, or that other people would know right off the bat.  So many helpful people in this community.

Quote: Axiom-Crux wrote on Thu, 25 January 2007 20:58

----------------------------------------------------

> Its one thing to not know what object you need to accomplish a task....

That's why I started this post with the "Don't assume

a single object" and included the suggestion that 

breaking down a problem into smaller units will often

suggest a way forward. While it's not easy to know

all N-hundred standard objects, a really good grasp

of how Max handles messages and that whole

The problem is that if it *seems* easier to just

fire off questions at the time, one misses all

No hay camino. Se hace el camino al andar.

Quote: Axiom-Crux wrote on Thu, 25 January 2007 20:58
----------------------------------------------------
> Its one thing to not know what object you need to accomplish a task....

That's why I started this post with the "Don't assume
a single object" and included the suggestion that 
breaking down a problem into smaller units will often
suggest a way forward. While it's not easy to know
all N-hundred standard objects, a really good grasp
of how Max handles messages and that whole 

The problem is that if it *seems* easier to just
fire off questions at the time, one misses all
kinds of things. 

No hay camino. Se hace el camino al andar.


In my opinion, having basic experience with programming (structuring, debugging, that sort of thing) solves half of the questions.

You can gain this experience, like any profession, by taking a course in programming. If you really don't like programming, you're going to get stuck in max at some point anyway. In that case you're far better off if you ask a friend that possesses some geekness to help you.

I agree fully with this post although I have certainly asked a stupid

question or two - and answered some. I've been using Max since about 1990.

When I get composer's block - or bored, I go to the reference manual(s) and

scan the titles on the pages where I see the name of the object and a very

brief description of what it does. Then I skip to the see also at the

bottom to get to know its family. Takes me 15-20 minutes to go completely

through each of the Max and MSP manuals. It refreshes my memory and usually

saves me from writing an object that already exists. Frequent random visits

to the tutorial and help folds also pays off. I also download a lot of the

patches that are posted here. I always learn something and often find a new

path in work I am already doing. Last Monday, I reread the Max Fundamentals

doc and was remind of "tips" on the Extras menu. Got back a few time saving

There was another post about programming that I agree with. In the days at

Oberlin when there were "analog" and "digital" students and never the twain,

the mere mention of programming got you in trouble with the former. I sued

to have a sign on my door that said something like "Never teach a composer

to program. It forces them to organize thought, proof read, edit, plan

ahead ..." and some other qualities I've forgotten. I am reminded that

Stavinsky started each day of composition by writing species counterpoint.

On 1/25/07 10:59 PM, "Nicholas C. Raftis III" 

> I am rather impressed by the multitude of newbie posts lately. I really don't

> understand how people look past the help files. Its one thing to not know

> what object you need to accomplish a task, but to ask if an object does

> something, well the help files and pdf are pretty explicit. I didn't even

> start posting till last year after 4 years of maxing solo, no lessons, nothing

> but the tutorials, help files and examples. I really think thats the way to

> go, and from alot of the people that Ive talked too who have taken workshops,

> they said the same thing. Though in depth classes would be pretty great. I

> usually try to only ask the forum if its something that I cant figure out

> after an hour or so of digging, and even then usually only if its something I

> think can help other people, or that other people would know right off the

> bat. So many helpful people in this community.

> -=ili!ili=- www.Axiom-Crux.net -=ili!ili=-

I agree fully with this post although I have certainly asked a stupid
question or two - and answered some.  I've been using Max since about 1990.
When I get composer's block - or bored, I go to the reference manual(s) and
scan the titles on the pages where I see the name of the object and a very
brief description of what it does.  Then I skip to the see also at the
bottom to get to know its family.  Takes me 15-20 minutes to go completely
through each of the Max and MSP manuals.  It refreshes my memory and usually
saves me from writing an object that already exists.  Frequent random visits
to the tutorial and help folds also pays off.  I also download a lot of the
patches that are posted here.  I always learn something and often find a new
path in work I am already doing.  Last Monday, I reread the Max Fundamentals
doc and was remind of "tips" on the Extras menu.  Got back a few time saving
techniques that I had forgotten.

There was another post about programming that I agree with.  In the days at
Oberlin when there were "analog" and "digital" students and never the twain,
the mere mention of programming got you in trouble with the former.  I sued
to have a sign on my door that said something like "Never teach a composer
to program.  It forces them to organize thought, proof read, edit, plan
ahead ..." and some other qualities I've forgotten.  I am reminded that
Stavinsky started each day of composition by writing species counterpoint.

Cheers
Gary Lee Nelson
Oberlin College
www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson

On 1/25/07 10:59 PM, "Nicholas C. Raftis III" 
wrote:

>
> I am rather impressed by the multitude of newbie posts lately.  I really don't
> understand how people look past the help files.  Its one thing to not know
> what object you need to accomplish a task, but to ask if an object does
> something, well the help files and pdf are pretty explicit.  I didn't even
> start posting till last year after 4 years of maxing solo, no lessons, nothing
> but the tutorials, help files and examples.  I really think thats the way to
> go, and from alot of the people that Ive talked too who have taken workshops,
> they said the same thing.  Though in depth classes would be pretty great.  I
> usually try to only ask the forum if its something that I cant figure out
> after an hour or so of digging, and even then usually only if its something I
> think can help other people, or that other people would know right off the
> bat.  So many helpful people in this community.
>
> Good luck all!
> --
> -=ili!ili=-  www.Axiom-Crux.net  -=ili!ili=-

Read the Overview chapter in the Fundamentals 

> manual. Read "How MSP Works" and the Audio I/O chapter in

> the MSP tutorial. Ditto the "What is a matrix?" and opening

> tutorials in Jitter. If you don't know that stuff, you'll be

> making all kinds of mistakes all the time you can avoid

Pardon my moment of cynicism. I've been thinking I should bundle up some of the tastier bits from the manuals and tutorials and publish them as "Max/MSP/Jitter: The Missing Manual". I'm sure I'd sell more than a few. A bonus edition could include the examples patches on CD-ROM.

Might be something for Cycling to consider...

Read the Overview chapter in the Fundamentals 
> manual. Read "How MSP Works" and the Audio I/O chapter in
> the MSP tutorial. Ditto the "What is a matrix?" and opening
> tutorials in Jitter. If you don't know that stuff, you'll be
> making all kinds of mistakes all the time you can avoid
> with a little effort.

Pardon my moment of cynicism.  I've been thinking I should bundle up some of the tastier bits from the manuals and tutorials and publish them as "Max/MSP/Jitter: The Missing Manual".  I'm sure I'd sell more than a few.  A bonus edition could include the examples patches on CD-ROM.

> Pardon my moment of cynicism. I've been thinking I should bundle up some of the tastier bits from the manuals and tutorials and publish them as "Max/MSP/Jitter: The Missing Manual".

Sorry, Michael - you're too generally sunny to

be a good cynic. A real cynic would point out

that it'd just be one more thing no one bothered

> Pardon my moment of cynicism.  I've been thinking I should bundle up some of the tastier bits from the manuals and tutorials and publish them as "Max/MSP/Jitter: The Missing Manual".  

Sorry, Michael - you're too generally sunny to
be a good cynic. A real cynic would point out
that it'd just be one more thing no one bothered
to read.  :-)


I made a tinyurl for this thread. I should also now finally be a "member" as I think this is the post to push me over the top from being a "junior member" ...which somehow seems appropriate. :) I also like that the end of the tinyurl is fuk.

I made a tinyurl for this thread.  I should also now finally be a "member" as I think this is the post to push me over the top from being a "junior member" ...which somehow seems appropriate. :)  I also like that the end of the tinyurl is fuk.

On 26-Jan-2007, at 20:40, Gregory Taylor wrote:

> that it'd just be one more thing no one bothered

Given that a cynic knows the price of everything and the value of 

nothing, consider the MRP of "Max/MSP for Dummies".

Peter Castine +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter

Interface Building for |home | chez nous|

Max/MSP Extremely cool |bei uns | i nostri|

> A real cynic would point out
> that it'd just be one more thing no one bothered
> to read.

Given that a cynic knows the price of everything and the value of  
nothing, consider the MRP of "Max/MSP for Dummies".

--------------    http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/    -------------
Peter Castine             +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
                                Universal Binaries on the way
iCE:  Sequencing,  Recording &
       Interface  Building  for                   |home    | chez nous|
       Max/MSP   Extremely cool                   |bei uns |  i nostri|
       http://www.dspaudio.com/                   http://www.castine.de

We should change the name of this thread to RTFM. Its starting to really surprise me how many posts Im seeing on a daily basis that could so easily be answered by even looking at the table of contents in the manual.. or even going through a couple tutorials. What can you do...

Still looking forward to the thread "How do I open max"

We should change the name of this thread to RTFM.  Its starting to really surprise me how many posts Im seeing on a daily basis that could so easily be answered by even looking at the table of contents in the manual.. or even going through a couple tutorials.  What can you do...

Still looking forward to the thread "How do I open max"


> We should change the name of this thread to RTFM. Its starting to really surprise me how many posts Im seeing on a daily basis that could so easily be answered by even looking at the table of contents in the manual.. or even going through a couple tutorials. What can you do...

> Still looking forward to the thread "How do I open max"

We need to start making youtube vids in response to max-list questions. 

Nicholas C. Raftis III skrev:
> We should change the name of this thread to RTFM.  Its starting to really surprise me how many posts Im seeing on a daily basis that could so easily be answered by even looking at the table of contents in the manual.. or even going through a couple tutorials.  What can you do...
>
> Still looking forward to the thread "How do I open max"
>
Or "How do I post to the max-list?".
We need to start making youtube vids in response to max-list questions. 
That'll give the kids what they want.

Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Fri, 26 January 2007 12:40

> > Pardon my moment of cynicism. I've been thinking I should bundle up some of the tastier bits from the manuals and tutorials and publish them as "Max/MSP/Jitter: The Missing Manual". 

> Sorry, Michael - you're too generally sunny to

> be a good cynic. A real cynic would point out

this is just one more thing no one bothers to read.

(who just "voted" five stars for this thread to make it more attarctive for newbies)

Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Fri, 26 January 2007 12:40
----------------------------------------------------
> > Pardon my moment of cynicism.  I've been thinking I should bundle up some of the tastier bits from the manuals and tutorials and publish them as "Max/MSP/Jitter: The Missing Manual".  
>
> Sorry, Michael - you're too generally sunny to
> be a good cynic. A real cynic would point out
> that it'd just be one more thing no one bothered
> to read.  :-)

-110 
(who just "voted" five stars for this thread to make it more attarctive for newbies)


I used to think it was a case of RTFM until we

came to that point there the things that one

could search were no longer easily definable as

Help help. I don't know how to [insert something here]