make play~ work like groove~
Ok, don’t say "why not use groove~". I’ve been advised on this forum to try [play~], or other similar objects, as the basis for a granulator instead of [groove~]. Except [groove~] has all the nice functions like loop-interpolation, ducking and sync output etc. I’ve mimicked groove with this patch using [play~], but (surprise surprise) as I’m not well-versed in vector sizes/scheduler etc, I’ll get crackles when any parameter is changed (phasor~ freq, offset etc). Any DSP guru willing to assist please?
-- Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. --Copy all of the following text. Then, in Max, select New From Clipboard.----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 1016.3oc0ZtrbaBCEFdsyL4cfxx1TWckKcYW2EcemLcjAgCc3hqA2DmLMO6E jvNNwI1xEcwcijQVF94CcNme.+vkWLweV8c7FeuO68cuISdnajIhw5GYxlAl 3WxtKof0HlneRcYIup0+pgurkeWq3KJpYodLur7BdWyxlmlR0px7pBdqXG.2 LZVcUaS98bwfnofclc8p1MSe6vKXsI2jWM+GK4IsRIGG18q7hI8sQhOivSAd Wu6QnhUJNB9eiUvZyqp89ZWS65E7sxKOULg5Y+7ij.ewf+4xK5665tZ7fYIm kZbVfPTA.P8+ZObjVnA0.z317pz5aMNOBA.AHBv8cz.svChA3QcVVC27wJDT bOBfghnEIUFMOvFfGYK4+ZEuJYs4CYhnanf1HB5emHU7a61Eudd0Yrp4ZgGv CFxHVhPgBd.1mGx8i3bW7C7ExZT7BLBdspbFeoVnB5PTgRjANhBLTUvRd+5Z MPGb74OcvhXHHgZe5Dc9SGnHVBBc.cB0elnzlEMsrV9iZAbjCBNgMlHYwJn5 bKqKao3CCa22MJLFneL1jO+QimLGOX4QlSGiT.gc5phULNbYf5ee3MfERivB J7KiCgCvhZCXgFQHZSR8B9w.i5VgBjlfvQRShXv1tmNA2U4FHp38O5AlRM9k 5MmoDQ4bbrchKPTSDW3AsFtfwVMxfnebkrNofaQjghD4TnVJyKBb1jLAJ8Dh jgXGMYBLR+Wre2m7f..XpspbHeFTjHEtVKcnLlK0vQTjs6n2cxYbiu3v.4MM otw2sN2Fs0WH7rmOnXzSfw13Ab9u7QFUAQDGvmQbS276SYI5KQ5.FHwxN5l1 WMM5HxhNmkWcZpVgKdD.Q5bnusOcvwq+s28qsyoW3+y2XABGXS6SFwctsXET VK0Vrx.FyWbCqodoMrZtAYRSlAVxp4HLmWxaZXy4mx6HSi3hty6KDKZQvCBq w8rPz+JqYqxx3cqrJx+M+KqxDdbAFuZLcvGORVSFa0pwF3AJsnfsdKCM+Cha nDPn7IZBsSL5dVfk6L+h7p8dg+BQ2+Eu.lM0qVlrQSCuslq71Q3o7lNgzIl5 pclEN34y5l7zTd0y75TlmtntqT+fR7t9suFqr3DGV7QEWr6DG5nhKxchCdTw E5Dw0cybprlC4FxgTQbu.u1BbJErROUsgAvdiYP4+2FLQ9Bt52RKpFQUQ0nP mfTTnJhyQwIJyM6qsXkzF3T0FFEJVJRhk+ANPa2xlKEcS0NDQIwQci3TJ0yK OErj3TBbP2TIFpT8D2XgQs5IvStP7PAkHQ6PHc+F1KyiaVGpTsjHmTmSYoYe pEnzhPmHMppdAOSy44lZEXkJULZo0OPW2eoTpJFF -----------end_max5_patcher-----------
I would really use [wave~] for this kind of thing rather than [play~] or [groove~]. Sorry to throw another one in there, but for granular synthesis it really is the best bet. That way you can have the formant, amplitude window and whatever else controlled by a single [phasor~], and use nathan wolek’s [phasor.shift~] to keep multiple grains in sync.
Here is how to get rid of the crackles:
-- Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. --Copy all of the following text. Then, in Max, select New From Clipboard.----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 1734.3oc6aszjahCD9rmeEZYujGSRzK.ydbOuG1S6kTolRFjs0FL3BvyjGU7 u8UO.aviwi7fLi2cSNfGjPhVe8W2p6FkueyDuY4egW5A9MvGASl78alLQ2jp gI02OwaE6KworR8i4kweHe1e6cqoqJ9WpzMmlyRVwKKA9vl9x2Tkxqp95ZtY 987.eptq0rp3khrE2UviqL8hI9uGdK.ouNMTcEidOb2PlmmUUJ9ldtPXY2ll y1rRjIeMZgCU2nHQKSR47cSm50ZBxXqzSf2ewKRXYLu8yhQZMSipwebyMpK2 ZIrDmuZEOq5Q3RIa05TNfklBVyJju9JdAHdIKaAuD7pR1xsuFvp.UK4.dVxG lwWHxxjHCHettwEELQF3UqWxJyK1Bjyv5WeK3gkB4jp5WM8hpMIbvChrj7G5 NNQoZxgf2I+mVFXEUh4r3px5Gmm.jK7FoNUjwiy2joEcR+5JeHTqkz5JRXf5 Ge3vUVAQmuxB9LTV8vgiSEwedauz2RwhLV5oIwQFRrAenNiEG3ONr3SXbOSR Y6EZzcZAvDpuFD3Lbg9hhKqAymMD5Bgp4IXh9GB0YvB4Y.KsESdQMXTiFxIR 5v4ddQoHOq0SOwqkSAs3GYVDXiJFFtewHw3Eo4welqkSXSiI74mybjulms+4 03VmKceRQ15BdozuLqpVva+dYaRqt63Pb29kdL48N3df2IdKJDI4YJwnyXUM 27BkqXsuy1xst+L15iLzp77zYrh6EkhYo7N5AI+kkIVwp3UBi7fg6FmX05Bg wq9t13YL4brrLtHOMsyTY549izSB+dQL+AQR0R8bsGs5DFQKdSGKqNseJKrt VYR0MWbOeK3Wg2sydyJat92+pkWZDz+P6tSX60q82g1f9XuClr9HJ83hZRia Jyebq6AVogQxQP0dALi26H3EAtPOe3B5P3RKntiiU6f2u4ZmQ0AWfGGWBPmf lzpml3OUiyyg3g40YE8.Q7scw1CIH.eBk7YrX26LUEQaO9kzqCU+GGEJy2TD 2nyazDftqoDdYkHa2dKebOU9fGboHIoqubMPKRVmK8KWKffOYkd6bkakiHqj 6.rCk65FkK.SXEkr64I2IeMRRycrppBwrMUFUS6vLjQHLikVGCxNO.dVsobu M9Tau26N3OULBGcv2rGIbSTlpjDk60FEEMnTSpyu17SXzyJVS7Qh0D9hFB9u 7gspMxguePXSfwAVnYaNnqvFZzKawGLEAHkmsnZI3UqJes2Iv.S17TCKA4rT znSGmb5mmlKmjdYAxtYR.xlTUIs.BenyvgmQJ7XG5DQrXqCbeDVWxGmgJ3W3 D3MkAaPIwaJYIwPXBbGzfdgShGY7HfoCHI9iOG+LI9+2kD+aUgvD56hLqBq2 hRyVBvCJaT7wSDA6e0m79aT.pCwSigp+kANoW8vY7WiS4acAbRamLrO8hfmv qC7zYEKIrUHWCnXID5+BJVRM+HbnEKg3eEWrDkEuUEcP4o8JpXIGQb5Qtklf .zUibSrFuoWW3MzR4l3+yhS8e9hSUWChoNq.LHxKaAXTe3b.Cnx6Rdonrx6T GpByWixsm+EZvQQf+jkJsvxxA+g7hVW4rBwzGVjOedI+T..MnVuaBrm3LHfL 1PvEpFLz5uToIBBB1U.DAOD.xgkiQlSCZPtQvFjYZC.46F2H3vwFfbV0La3L FiJ2UNSDZHPxyovl7ukvh2dpJX2rFakLAsUj0OoZdp67.rfIxdRa8aUYPUYC ilVWiQjtFrAmwZJ7hWY42t0Elr0KPhqLYCtZbo4.zAScL53ekfNMGqUDD5fu eG1bfdBm5rue2XCSpSPMaA+Q3TAmk77NV0nVQUZNfgnngCLjqD9yrMymyk7m Tw87eeyb8WBF5fcMM3EUSjPXmEIJdr2yrOytT1W2AZtv6sw+zTjyhtvU7Ksf zsvVFb6vBUTidOp.Ep++CrutC8TbBZmhS73BSb7hR7HcosxTfEhDZTkH0Ac3 oQowEjf1HRQmmLgoT0Vvn.SpEAQ6tanRquERaPmZNd4QPpMxz3R8oXawoqLl l+3p5HtfNEmmlWz7M5i7wQTT82nGUeY2fOP7IzHiARc939O9NDVu6JAR2c2. WzDa3FHx4wMnHs7gCMV7z82MPoEYkJZTYMTawOKIMntGriSvWp8jh8CU+Pf9 6taDVRAOEkXPKIb8oCZ+cCbI4aIuAdUwa7ujXbck9v6uaDVQTzkbIQ0KIBlt 6tgtjrg2bv1qWbhCxBYRU70ywIXMlQZ7XSLmXQG3w1Vgc7.vCdcGWlFWQxls 0FWVlMXzzqRIZ715GYC4lLD8l7leby+vZmu2f -----------end_max5_patcher-----------
This sounds good, but do you have time to demonstrate? I’ll have a go myself obviously (how many posts begin like this: "noob needs help with coursework assignment but I can’t be bothered to do it myself…"??)
My challenge is sync-ing grain-windows onset to grain-frequency without drift, even at small values.
(how many posts begin like this: "noob needs help with coursework assignment but I can’t be bothered to do it myself…"??)
Entirely too many, but you’re leaving out the really important bit about needing it tomorrow! :-)
LMAO; actually I’m doing a PhD in DMI design, so I really really need it by three years from now!
I guess you can add to your CV the skill of mind-reader! The problem is exactly that: interrupting [phasor~] in mid-ramp. I will dissect this handy patch until I know exactly what every element is doing.
@goodparleyandorfing; thanks for the tip, I’ve got [wave~] doing [groove~]-type stuff, and in conjunction with timlloyd’s tools i should have this sorted in a few days/months/years…….
Well – I’m going to have to say these this:
I DO NOT advise the use of [play~] over [groove~], unless for some reason you need to access the sample in some random way, or have other special requirements – for playback I always prefer [groove~], as it is simply more accurate than [play~] (the internal phasor is able to use 64 bit precision) – play~ is less accurate because of the need to use a 32 bit float signal to drive it’s input, which becomes very clear with longer samples (there is a limited length for which play~ will play back at normal speed accurately), So – to those who, advised you to use [play~] I say – why?
Next up – [wave~] – that is all well and good for multiple in-sync window functions etc., but [wave~] uses linear interpolation, rather than the cubic interpolation used by [groove~] and [play~] – that’s really not good enough for decent audio playback most of the time – playing back at low speeds makes the difference in quality more noticeable. Plus – the same problems as with [play~] mentioned above.
In short – I would always choose [groove~] for audio playback (in terms of standard max objects) based on audio quality – for window functions etc. YMMV – but in these cases quality is not an issue in the same way.
HOWEVER, just read a couple of posts further down, and for sample accurate applications [groove~] may be problematic. There are areas where the features of other objects might win out, but be aware that [wave~] is not going to offer the same accuracy. Further to this, for accuracy I would prefer [play~} over [wave~] – you can still control multiple [play~s] with one [phasor~] if your scaling is done correctly, so I would see [wave~] as simply a lower quality route to the same solution (although [play~] might require a bit more patching).
I deconstructed timlloyd’s simple but effective patch and only one question remains: if I connect the phasor~ signal directly to the first sah~, the patch hangs; why are unique send~ and receive~ objects necessary in this context?
They introduce a vector size of delay, you can’t connect the [sah~] outlet back to its inlet because max can’t see into the future.
Thanks for your incisive comments Alex; [play~] was one of a list of suggestions, including [wave~] and others. I suppose time-domain granulation in the region of <20ms is always going to be problematic, but your comments have given me more criteria with which to make choices - thanks
And thanks Luke!
My supervisor keeps saying "use externals for this stuff, that’s what they are there for"; But i want to crack the code, the holy grail as it were, artefact-free time-domain granulation.
Raja, hasn’t anyone told you that you can drop the loadmess 1 stuff with gate objects by using a second argument to gate? Perhaps a few minutes to make your patches more readable to the beginners you wish to assist might not be a bad idea, either. I’m sure your mileage will vary.
In terms of windowed sinc interpolation – in my opinion it’s only really worth it for the anti-aliasing (faster playback speeds) – I’m not convinced that low speeds work that well for low numbers of crossover points – with volker’s external I get high frequency artifacts at low speeds (like sine tones) that are pretty distracting (I haven’t tested massively, but that’s what I’m hearing here with a couple of different files).
I’ve also done my own external from scratch using windowed-sinc and I wasn’t that pleased with the low speed sound – I think ideally I’d go for a different approach according to the speed, which I may implement when I revisit my external in the future.
The cpu hit can be so large (comparatively speaking) however, that for my money it’s not worth it for lower speed playback, or for material with not that much HF content, or for small speed increases. Pitch shift a harmon muted trumpet of 3 or 4 octaves however, and you’ll for sure notice the difference.
This thread is definitely getting added to my favourites – lots of helpful stuff. As to those of you who mentioned poly~………. of course! I’ve been variously adapting and breaking timlloyd’s patch to get that smooth, blurred wash of timbres (like you do in Jean-Francois’ spectral tools), and poly~ is the answer. I shall return with a patch, but I have one final question: do I need to prefix ANY of the objects in this (tim’s) patch with the #0 ‘name argument’ I have seen in numerous poly-patches here? I can’t find any specific references in the documentation, or understand the necessity/function?
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