Max/Msp native synth PartII: building it

sounds good.
so I was wondering if Hans, Matt, Roman, et. al. had taken a look here:
Max5/examples/synths/FMSynth/X.FM~.maxpat
That synth seems like a pretty good example or starting-point?
Wondering what people's criticisms and likes of it are?

This is the kind of synth I'm not keen on (neverland synth). Its obviously quite accomplished but FM with a load of reverb isn't my cup of tea. I guess if you need this sound you can just pick it apart.

What were we looking at doing? Some kind of modular thing? An Absynth copy? I guess High quality waveforms to begin with, some stereo jazz, pitch drift (I like this but I imagine some don't), Waveshaping?

@Mike and everyone who asks what are we looking at doing. (My current view)

building or using an FM synth is not what is wanted. Also, an Absynth copy is not needed. Absynth is a very elegant DSP architecture which has a lot to offer. A sound source module, a filter unit and a modulation unit are the essence of it. Midi interface, LFO's, envelope control over 3 oscillators.

Shortcomings in my opinion of Absynth are the small number of oscillators, after contacting Brian Clevinger the creator of it, I learned that there are in fact 48 oscillators but they are not controllable. They are discrete generating some kind of harmonics if you want that. That's why Absynth is not a tool for composition but for sound design.
It is interesting to look at the design of the 'sound source module'. It is for example possible to turn it into an audio input and use filter and modulation moduls as effects processors. Also, apart from all standard waveforms you can customise waveforms and you can load samples as .wav files. So you have live audio input, wavetables and samples.
If Mike or anyone interested has some killer DSP app I am sure there are open arms to embrace it. It has to be explained. I do not know what stereo jazz is.
I worked with the UPIC system and it has 64 controllable osc. From my experience with it, I can say that even 64 osc can be limiting when you compose music. Max is our limit and it needs a native synth which can be included in building apps under Max. It is not possible to include VST instruments inside a Max app.
I was hopeful that this thread would find attention by some veteran Max users to say what they think about the current possibilities building a synth but so far there is no input from there. Maybe it will come.

Thank you for everyone so far for your thoughts and patches. I hope it will go on.

There may well have to be a "Max Native Synth Part III" thread, as it seems the design concept is not yet formulated in this one. After closely following the two related threads, can I suggest that a broad design concept and scope is first established. The 'build it' thread can then be used to address issues of DSP economy, GUI etc. A critique of the 2 synths mentioned above is a good place to start.

Perhaps a shopping list of requirements might inspire us too:
user-defined wave shapes including user samples and quantity;
fixed but selectable synthesis algorithms (granular, AM, FM...);
user-defined LFO shapes and quantity;
LP, BP HP, notch etc;
freely assignable modulation algorithms;
blah blah blah........
Brendan

"What were we looking at doing?"
we didn't really agree on specifics.
i'm thinking(since many of us have so many other things to do), maybe we could all split up, and just post our own version of synths here(anything). then, we can all post back(or start new threads) versions of what others have posted... and can do so whenever we are able to get it done rather than relying on me or anyone to start it up with a patch that maybe no one else will like or find useful since we all have our own individual ideas of what makes a good synth... and that would also allow for more information and solutions/techniques to become available. people will be able to pick and choose.
anyways, attached here is a synth i cobbled together in the last day or so. i decided i like NI's Massive(a synth with real balls, hehe ;) so although this doesn't even come close, i was actually keeping Massive in mind as i built it and will keep at it over the long term...
it's just a start, but it's all i can contribute for right now(must get on with other things and hopefully return to this after others have posted their own or tweaked it out, etc.) there are also many things that need improving(bandlimited hi-quality wavs, upsampling, dithering, filters, compression, distortion, better initialization protocols, better UI for MIDI routing, better UI in general, and so much more...)... but it's a good start(at least to me it is).
i used stuff i've learned from others like Vlad Spears, Jack A Perkins, Les Stuck, Luke Dubois, and so many others...
many ideas also appeared in Mike S's 'commercial synthesis techniques' thread:
https://cycling74.com/forums/commercial-synthesis-techniques
i also added AudioMatt's JS drag and drop to allow for drag and drop routing of LFO...
anyways, 'thank you' to All! hope you like... have fun!

When it comes to DSP coding for efficiency and power I usually start to feel out of my depth. I can build these things but not well. Usually that's ok because it is just me using the patch and I know where the patch is kind of hanging and don't do that or else this happens. I would be embarrassed to put up patches when I see the strength and elegance of some patches. Mine are usually kludges from the ground up. :)

I did get inspired though and built a simple little thing that has lots of filter slopes, a few allpass~ here and there to taste, a little fluctuation, bits of tanh~ and some distortion and basically just messed about trying to get it to sound nice. It turned out to be a cheap and nasty little monosynth that looks like good fun to use with a touchscreen. It doesn't sound fantastic but its not dead. It doesn't have a lot of functionality but it has enough to be fun and get a few ideas going. Next up is to make it polyphonic, add a sequencer that spits out chords or notes and start messing with Hilbert~ which sounds like a decent ringmod.

I am sorry I cannot contribute but I watch with eagerness and I am patching away kludge after kludge.

OK just had a play with the synth

I'd like to see seperate waveform objects for each waveform, actually most of my criticism would be aimed at the UI and I'm happy to volunteer to work on it. Not quite sure about this drag routing thing, wouldn't matrix control be easier and also show your routing once you've done it? Detuning doesn't seem to work for me.

I would like to see a slower more methodical approach to the synth. What you have done is built a pretty good synth that now has to be deconstructed. It is a bit painful to have to trace where everything is going, comments would be good, and you may think this a bit picky but I find your Max object colour scheme very difficult to look at - I could not work on the patch without changing the colours.

Aside from the criticism I think it sounds good, I like the smoothing and I like phase offsets.

yes, all sounds good! i'd be interested to see whatever changes anyone makes...
i think i also made the UI more about dynamic routing than it needed to be(maybe i got too obsessed with saving on space)...
The drag routing makes more sense later(if you play with Massive, you'll see why it's useful)... having separate poly~s for the LFOs and ADSRs(eventually), the drag-routing will make it quick to throw mappings around(not just LFO to synth but any modulation source to any parameter ...but yes, need to work on a status indicator to show when an LFO/ADSR/Mod-source is attached to a synth or any other parameter...)
(oh and about the detune, this is working for me but i think it is the UI that makes it difficult to use/understand(you have to choose the synth to which the detune will apply first(one or two), then apply it, then when you click a noteon/noteoff on that particular synth, you should hear it) definitely could use a whole UI do-over)
and although i think color is a subjective choice(i feel like i might drop into seizures when i see bright colors of max help files, and i feel more intimate with my instrument when the UI has a darker/colder color scheme as if, to me and probably only me, UI design is very much tied to mood lighting ;), of course you should change it to whatever you want as it's good to see other's tastes, to get a more wholistic sense of UI/design.

nothing writ in stone, so have a go and obliterate it if you need to.

[EDIT: @grizzle, you need never be embarassed to post any patches, i appreciate posted patches no matter what(they are always better than words, haha)... but i understand the reservation as I often have the same for the same exact reasons.]

i got one error...
js: no function resetdrags

but seems to have no problem running though...
it's a really nice synth. really nice design and sounds great too.

i'm trying to build one myself and this keyboard part is something i was trying to build but gave up. it's so nice to see someone smarter just does it.

but for the overall concept, i had something different in my mind. i thought by native synth it meant something along the line of [cycle~] or [techno~], you know, some sort of max patch abstractions with midi inlets and audio outlets that you can use in your own projects. i thought that's when the augment of building an external instead came in... it's an open patch so maybe it shouldn't be so hard to convert it to abstraction though...

anyway it's really nice work and thank you, Noob4Life!