Working with Max is not easy

What kind of music do you want to make?

barry

--
barry threw :: sound | (if you would see the stars clearly,
http://www.barrythrew.com | look hard at the surrounding darkness)
bthrew(at)gmail(dot)com |      -Ooka Makoto
857-544-3967 |

Experimental electronic. I need to be able to get to the point of
creating the tool and THEN using it which is the fun part. I need the
fun part.

well, max takes times to really be able to just start from scratch and
create something mindblowing.

I got used to max by creating patch thru systems, where I could route, say a
MIDI signal to do something odd...

Then as I got more used to the methods, I started trying to create larger
more complex patches that I could actually perform with.

Either way, the key is having a goal, and putting the bigger picture
together with smaller parts, and smaller meaning compartmentalizing things.

I hear you, it can be pointless, when you sit down with not much of a goal
in mind, or no way of knowing how to get there.

Best advice is, decide what you want to build, figure out how you can break
it down (if you want a bunch of specialized sample-players, you can just
build one, and modify instances of it), then try putting something small
together. If you cant get it to work, try and locate the problem area. If
its a missing object, and you dont know what would work, email the list.

so, my workflow often comes out like this...Idea--miniaturized
version--troubleshooting--go bigger

I dont know if that helps or even makes sense.

Computo

> Experimental electronic. I need to be able to get to the point of
> creating the tool and THEN using it which is the fun part. I need the
> fun part.

Since I'm horrible at "getting to the fun", I too, would love to hear
others tips on the subject of productivity. Heres some tips that I'm
far from mastering.

Most importantly: When you think of something, don't rush into it.
Ask yourself "What is my risk/reward ratio?" Are you going to spend
30 days on a program you'll use twice or possibly hate when you
finish? Max is very easy to get carried away with.
     At times, I've personally felt it's choked off my actual creative
output. In fact I would be interested to hear other's strategies and
thoughts as to "creative output" vs "max for max sake."

    That being said, Its good to write scripts for things you find
yourself doing many times. I recently wrote myself a script which
takes all my parameters and applies a routing matrix to them. This
inherently provides midi CC control and preset infrastructure.
Basically, you write your algorithm, gui, apply this system, and your
done.

Other time savers:
**in the extras menu, keep a patcher of common equations and patching
figures.(small groups of objects).
**if your bug has to do with unexpected behavior of an object, amend
the help file.
**indispensable abstraction 1: the old ascii midi keyboard trick for
entering midi info quickly.
**indispensable abstraction 2: takes note/velocity info, spits out
sine waves.

I'm no guru. this is just what I've found
-matt

Experimental electronic.

Well, there might be your first problem. Not in sense that the kind of
music you want to make is bad, but in the sense that you really have to
define your goals before you start. "Experimental electronic" covers a
lot of ground. Do you want to sound like Aphex Twin, David Tutor, Les
Stuck, Matmos, Gregory Taylor, Barry Threw, Christopher Willits, or
Radiohead? Of course you want to sound like yourself, but you have to
have a voice in mind. Do you want to drop phat beats, or create subtle
textures?

Once you answer that question, then perhaps a good exercise would be to
create one piece with a Max patch. Not a magnum opus, but just
something you kind of like, and more importantly, that feels like its a
sound you can resonate with. After that, you think about what aspects
of that piece you liked, and try and generalize those features that
patch to play more similar pieces.

Start small and simple, and add features as you go. Don't start out
trying to make a 10.16 surround patch that uses a comprehensive array of
effects and synthesis techniques and also makes julienne fries. If you
start out small, it will be conceptually easier to work your way through
a patch.

This is the real challenge for me when using Max, how to make a patch
that is specialized enough to make the kind of music I want, and general
enough to support several different works.

Just some thoughts. But I find that the most helpful "max tip" is to
have a clear idea of what problem you want to solve before you go out
and try to solve it. You will get more ideas along the way that will
eventually lead you to a final product that is more original than what
you started out trying to do.

barry

--
barry threw :: sound | (if you would see the stars clearly,
http://www.barrythrew.com | look hard at the surrounding darkness)
bthrew(at)gmail(dot)com |      -Ooka Makoto
857-544-3967 |

Quote: jmdarremont wrote on Tue, 09 May 2006 10:53
----------------------------------------------------
> IMHO pieces of software must be used for what they are good for.
> Considering what you wrote I think you need to try other softwares.
> Or even something else than software.
Jean-Michel, I humbly disagree. There was no indication that Max "isn't right" for the OP, from what I read he is simply asking for a way to "work smarter" with it.

As with all music production my recommendation is: Compartmentalization (like Computo said) and - Deadlines! Start by setting up a really simple track and set out to build *one* killer sound for it. It needn't be genius, the purpose is to start building, say, an soundFX generator, that can be saved and used in a larger compositional patch. Build up your library like this, and soon you'll have a decent lib to use.

In the very short month I've used max(and I just got started on the msp stuff) I didn't start work on anything unless I had a design in mind beforehand. Just some rough idea of what I wanted to acheive was all it took, and I now have quite a decent midi manipulation rig ready to go. Similarly I was discussing certain looping elements with a friend, and I was just about ready to try out the MSP side of things, so the first synth was a sine-wave FMed with its own looping delay: A very simple patch, must be around 20 objects or less, but the efficiency is there, since I had the idea to begin with.

Uhm. That came out a bit long-winded, but I hope I was clear regardless.

Wetterberg / Machinate

As for me, sometimes i much prefer to use Lisp for what i have to do with
CLCE... Lisp is very powerful and also
complitly different... An other way of thinking computer programming.

Csound is kind of hard for me to use... it's a lot of code to write for
something i can do with max in few minutes but
once again, it a question of what is the most appropriated for your needs.

Lisp is really great for recurssive programming.
With onlu few lines of code, you can do very interesting things... also,
it's pretty intuitive, i like that !

Max is great, i really love that environnement :-)
Not too hard but not simple also... which language is ? even Python takes
time :-)

Sebowski

********

When I started using Max I quickly realized that it could be a very
productive and creative tool to me, much more so than writing sheet
music or using programs such as Finale and Vision (nowadays that would
be Cubase). But I also realized that I would have to learn the program
really well in order to use it. If not, my creative flow would always
get blocked by technical difficulties, and by the time I had figured out
what objects to use and how to do it, the idea would be gone.

I started out using Max before MSP or Nato/Jitter was around, so it was
only 50 tutorials to crack, not 150 as it is these days. I started
reading them thoroughly, stopping after each chapter to check out the
references and help files on the various objects introduced. By the time
I had gotten to tutorial 17 I had the idea for my first installation
piece based on Max. I still think of that as the first thing I did that
was artistically heading in the direction I wanted to go.

Later, when I got hold of MSP I felt that the MSP tutorials were good
for learning MSP itself, but I needed more knowledge on audio processing
in able to make any sense of it. So I bought "Computer music: synthesis,
composition and performance" by Dodge and Jerse. I really recommend
that book. I found it to have a good and structured progression, and
it is providing enough details that I was able to turn the techniques
discussed into Max patches. In comparison I have sometimes felt that
The Computer Music Tutorial by Curtis Roads lack the last few details
required in order to implement the techniques discussed myself. Still
that book is a must further down the road.

Musicians have to practice their instruments, rehearsing scales, etc in
order to develop technical skills that are a prerequisite for artistic
expression. A composition student have to study counterpoint,
harmonization, orchestration, etc. In the same way artists depending on
digital tools have to continuously explore and learn about their medium,
in particular so because the "instrument" we are playing is changing on
a more or less daily basis. Reading mailing lists, books, searching
information on the net, trying out stuff by patching, checking out 3rd
party objects, etc. are my etudes, and I have to do them on a daily basis.

If you are mainly into music, I would recommend spending as much time as
possible with the Max tutorials before moving on to MSP. MIDI might be
less exciting, but the important lessons about how to program, and how
to use Max in a good way is first and foremost revealed in the max
tutorials. The better you know them, the better you will be able to make
use of Jitter and MSP later on.

I have seen other approaching Max in a much less structured way than
myself and come up with really interesting results, so I am not claiming
that this is the only valid approach. But this is what have worked for
me so far. But I suppose I am a control freak...

Best,
Trond